Intimidation?

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Not quite. The DC10+level+wis is only a static DC for NPCs, when a DM doesn't have time to fiddle around with more complicated rolls.

The real rolls would go like this.

A (level five): *intimidate check*
A: Intimidate check: 12+10 (8 ranks +2 CHA) = 22
B(level five): *WIS check*
B: Wisdom check: 10+3 (+3 WIS) = 13.
B: [Tell] 13+1/2(5) = 15. Yeah, I fail.
A: [Tell] Big time.

This is between A, who has maxed out Intimidate and a decent CHA, and B... Who is the same level, and whose Wisdom is only marginally higher than A's Charisma.

Now, let's say B were a tenth-level Cleric with a WIS now of 20.

A (level 5): *intimidate check*
A: Intimidate check: 13+10=23
B (level 10): *WIS check*
B: Wisdom check: 14+5=19
B: [Tell] 19+1/2(10)=24. Hah!
A: [Tell] Aw, rats.

Now let's use two different character, G and L. G is a tenth-level barbarian with a CHA bonus of +3, and NO RANKS in Intimidate. L is a tenth-level cleric with a WIS bonus of +4.

G: *Intimidate check*
G: Intimidate check: 12+3=15
L: *WIS check*
L: Wisdom check: 9+4=13
L: [Tell] 13+1/2(10)= 18. Hah.
G: [Tell] Aw, shucks.

This method gives a GREAT DEAL of weight to skill ranks and to levels.

[Ioskeha]

I was told by a GM that to counter any social skill that you use the same one.  Say someone's PC rolls imtimidate.  I would roll imtimidate myself VS the DC of whatever they rolled.

X: *Intimidate check*
X: Intimidate check: 12+3=15
Y: *intimidate check*
Y: Intimidate check: 12+0=12
Z: X wins

[Hellblazer]

always thought it was a will save and not a wisdome check as it is the will that is affected. An intimidation will affect the moral of a person saping his will to fight back.

[Witch Hunter]

How would you react if you were thoroughly intimidated by someone?

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In my opinion this is where being a "PC character/hero" rather than a commoner comes in motion - instead of running away crying (Unless the situation called for it :rolleyes:) one would instead become more defensive as he is facing a certain threat - a PC finds undead or giants intimidating for certain yet he still faces them.
 
Many animals when intimidated by something become more defensive and some even agressive... etc etc.

[jrizz]

ok so we really dont have a consensus on this. Both as to method and to reaction. Although the method SZ laid out seems very clear (I will call it the 3.0 method) it is still only one of three at this point (3.0, will, and same vs same methods). If a GM (or GMs) could weigh in on this it would help. As to the reaction, we have for the most part a common thought "you would be intimidated". Now WH's point above is a good one. The PC's are mostly heros ready and trained to face danger (except the evil ones which I dont know what they are). They are used to seeing a room full of nasties that could kill them and charging in anyway. So if faced with what they see as real danger and not just an empty threat (failed roll) would they not react in kind. Of course most heros are also smart and wont charge into certain death. So if intimidate results in a feelng that this person can and will kill you will the hero retreat?

[Hellblazer]

I guess it woudl depend on what kind of person he is. How usualy the player rp's it. If its the kind that has no attachement, nor care of his own safety in general, he might just receprocate and charge in. If he is the kind with a family and a sence of preservation, he might think it twice and may back down althout not always backing down with its tail between his leg, all depending on how bad he failed the roll of course.

Say your character failled his roll by 5, he would a bit confused and wondering. but if he had a critical failuer on his roll, 1+mod etc then he would be quite frankly frighten as hell and would probably drop his weapon and run screaming like a little girl.

[jrizz]

So you are saying that how much you miss your roll by should also be a factor in how you react. I fully agree with this. This brings up another question though. Does a natural 20 on a intimidate check always result in the target being intimidated (unless the target rolls a 20 as well)? I am sure this cant be the case, but thought I should ask.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

always thought it was a will save and not a wisdome check as it is the will that is affected. An intimidation will affect the moral of a person saping his will to fight back.

Will saves represent the character's ability to push through DIRECT influences to his or her mind, i.e. magic. Let's use an analogy...

Let's say the mind is a train. Now, what everyone's trying to get that train to do is move. Something that requires a Will Save would be like getting behind the train and pushing. The things that would, in 3.0/3.5, require a Sense Motive check, would be more akin to lighting up the engine and making it go.

A forcing as opposed to a persuasion.

All of the social skills in 3.x are opposed by Sense Motive (apart from the 3.0 skill Innuendo, which was opposed by Read Lips). Since we don't have Sense Motive in NWN, it gets a bit tricky to adjudicate what rolls should be done in its place. However, the fact remains that the mechanic of Sense Motive represents being able to see another character's intentions, and their efforts to persuade you. It does NOT represent strength of willpower, which doesn't factor into Persuade, Bluff, etc. This is why Will Saves aren't appropriate.

The exception to this is Intimidate, which is opposed by the modified level check mentioned earlier in the thread. Which we can simulate without any trouble at all, here in NWN.

The official (D&D) rules on Intimidate can be found here.



HOWEVER.

All of this said... If you're asked by a DM to roll something against Intimidate, you roll that. Period. I don't care if it's an Open Lock check, roll it. DM trumps all.


Anyhow. Intimidate should be rolled like any other skill check. A natural 20 does not always mean success, and a natural 1 does not always mean failure (at least by the canon rules). However, as a somewhat old-school gamer myself, I'd consider a 20+1 to give a result somewhere around 31.

[Gulnyr]

Myself, I have to go with the D20 system rules. That is, 1d20 + WIS modifier + 1/2 ECL (effective character level).

Your Intimidate check is opposed by the target’s modified level check (1d20 + character level or Hit Dice + target’s Wisdom bonus [if any] + target’s modifiers on saves against fear).

To satisfy my curiosity and clear up what seems confusing, can you tell me where you got the roll info from the first quote above?  You say it's the d20 system rule, but the SRD doesn't say anything at all about halving the character level.

In my opinion this is where being a "PC character/hero" rather than a commoner comes in motion - instead of running away crying ... one would instead become more defensive as he is facing a certain threat - a PC finds undead or giants intimidating for certain yet he still faces them.

This is a big reason the character level is included in the roll.  The higher the character's level, the more he's been through, so the harder he is to intimidate.  It would be... well, I hesitate to say "cheating," but that's what it is...  It would be cheating to simply decide your character can't be intimidated and won't be scared off.  

It may be out of character for some characters to run away.  Paladins come to mind.  They may be quivering in their tin cans, but they still try to stand tall against the threat, even if only to keep up appearances.  Of course, if he failed the roll, he really should be roleplayed as properly affected - less arrogant, quieter, slumped over a little, whatever.  Of course, everyone has a breaking point, so even the most recalcitrant Paladin will break and run under some threat or condition.

But it may not be the intention of the threatening person to scare anyone away.  She may just want someone to shut up or back down, to reduce the target's standing within a group, say.  Intimidate isn't a one-task tool.

[Witch Hunter]

Well paladins gain Aura of Courage at level 2 which makes them immune to fear, so technically they should never be scared again... just like Elves don't sleep.

Also theres a new point to think about - how easy is it to scare an entire group? say:

Mr.Pickles is a fearsome barbarian; behold his terrifying growls and gestures... Mr.Pickles approaches a group of 3 adventurers who are 5 levels lower than him and goes "BOORAAARARA!! *intimidate check* and rolls some 15+20...
But would each and every one present in the group roll against that?
Or would they do something like add the combined courage of 'em all to face the terror that is Mr.Pickles?


As for what to roll againts it... I agree with Stehen it shouldn't be will, I think a skill vs skill makes the most sense at the given moment as we have no other form with which to use... Although new forms would be welcome *cough*

[gilshem ironstone]

In terms of intimidating paladins, I think it can be done under some circumstances.  They may not feel fear, but they could be convinced that wisdom is the greater part of valour and step down from what they perceive as a greater threat.  I think it depends on the context of the intimidation.

[MJZ]

Mr.Pickles is a fearsome barbarian; behold his terrifying growls and gestures... Mr.Pickles approaches a group of 3 adventurers who are 5 levels lower than him and goes "BOORAAARARA!! *intimidate check* and rolls some 15+20...
But would each and every one present in the group roll against that?
Or would they do something like add the combined courage of 'em all to face the terror that is Mr.Pickles?

Hahaha I'm still laughing about that. Hahaha!


But I'm confused. Which is it? Wisdom save + 1/2ECL? People try intimidate very often, I really would like to know! I've just been throwing Will saves. But it makes sense to me that bonuses vs. fear should be added.

[jrizz]

Good points all. I agree that if a DM tells you to roll something then you roll it. But when it is a random RP event, and this kind of a thing comes up. I really feel the SZ's system is the best way to handle the rolls. To restate it:

A (level five): *intimidate check*
A: Intimidate check: 12+10 (8 ranks +2 CHA) = 22
B(level five): *WIS check*
B: Wisdom check: 10+3 (+3 WIS) = 13.
B: [Tell] 13+1/2(5) = 15. Yeah, I fail.
A: [Tell] Big time.

Now if Mr Pickles trys to intimidate a whole group the group should have some pluses due to "strength in numbers". I would suggest:
1. plus 1 if the group is two people
2. plus 2 for each person over 2 and up to 5
3. plus 3 for each person over 5 and up to 10 (that would be the end of the pluses)
I would also say that if more then half the group beat the roll then the whole group is unaffected and if more then half the group fail the roll the whole group is affected.
So if MR Pickles trys to imtimidate a group of 4 people each person would get a mod of 5 added to their roll. If it was 6 people each person would get a mod of 10 and so on the max being a mod of 17.
What do you all think of this a solution for groups? I am not a versed as SZ in 3.0 or 3.5 rules so this may be addressed already.

[MJZ]

It seems as though everyone has their own separate (rather convoluted) rules as to this. The last thing I want is extensive Tell arguments about whether I saved against the Intimidate or not. How can we get any sort of consensus?

[Witch Hunter]

In terms of intimidating paladins, I think it can be done under some circumstances.  They may not feel fear, but they could be convinced that wisdom is the greater part of valour and step down from what they perceive as a greater threat.  I think it depends on the context of the intimidation.

I think in order to scare a paladin Mr.Pickles would have to do something else than the casual "ROAOOARBRAAAAAA"... something clever like kidnap said paladins beloved and hold her at axe-point.... That Mr.Pickles sure is cunning...

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Actually, Gulnyr caught a mistake of mine. The 1/2 level is a house rule, and I always forget that the official rule is full ECL.

1d20 + ECL + WIS bonus + Modifiers against Fear.

It lends a heck of a lot more weight to character levels... Now I remember why my DM altered it, back in the day. *Chuckles.*

[jrizz]

Ok then full ECL. Perhaps we can get a GM to weigh in on this so that we can start to socialize this method.

As to the Paladin issue. Paladins should be imune to intimidate really once they have AOC.

[Gulnyr]

The Paladin's immunity to fear is something I had forgotten.  That's a good point.  

As for groups, I think it should remain individual rolls.  Good arguments could be made to have Intimidate checks affect whole groups at once, but that breaks away from the standard of other Fear affects (like spells and auras).  It's generally a good idea to keep things consistent from one situation to another, and Fear checks are based on individual saves in other circumstances.  

Besides that, an Intimidate check doesn't carry the same panic effect result as spells or auras.  It's a "less powerful" ability, and it really doesn't make any sense that a yelling Barbarian can make a whole group cower just because a few fail the roll when a group charging a dragon is affected individually no matter what.

It seems as though everyone has their own separate (rather convoluted) rules as to this. The last thing I want is extensive Tell arguments about whether I saved against the Intimidate or not. How can we get any sort of consensus?

Things that are official carry a lot of weight.  Since the SRD, as linked and quoted above, lists 1d20 + Character Level + Wisdom Modifier + Modifiers vs. Fear, and since that can be pointed to as official, I'd say lobby for that one.

[MJZ]

Alrighty, thank you, I favoured that one myself, actually.

I thinks it's a good idea that saves against intimidate should be done individually - if one fellow in a group resists it, (s)he can RP trying to bolster a member that failed and appears frightened, etc.

[jrizz]

I tend to agree on the method.

On the group thing it seems a little fuzzy. A PC with high enough intimidate could affect a really large group if everyone fails the save. And although that would be funny it seems just a little off. Take my Barb for instance, by next level his intmindate will be 24 so a roll of a 20 would result in a 44 a group of PCs in the 10 to say 15 level range could easly all fail against that.
a 15 level PC with a Wis mod of even 6 could not make the save unless they had a lot of fear mods in place, and then the PC would still need a high roll. i would say that the group thing is a strange one.

Mr Pickles wants the benches by the fountain to himself. He walks up to a group of 10 people and brandishes his big axe saying in a threating way "it is time for all of you to leave". Mr pickles has pumped a lot of points into intimidate (say 30 not hard to do) he rolls a check and gets a 20. Most PCs not ready for something like that will fail the roll. Except the paladin in the crowd LOL who will be standing there by himself saying hey what are you all afraid of LOL.