RPing crafting levels

[ycleption]

One thing I have had trouble with, is giving RP descriptions of my crafting levels. Often people ask me things like "oh, how good of a [insert tradeskill] are you?" And I don't really feel I have a frame of reference to be able to answer these kinds of things well, without being rather vague. It would be really nice to have some sort of guide, to the effect of, the average home-maker has a tailoring level of x, the owner of a large city's apothecary has a alchemy of x, the kids in Hlint have fishing level x.
At what level could someone support themself with a trade? In this type of society, what level would the average peasant be? At what level would they be able to effectively teach the skill to others, or be considered a master in their field?

Thanks

[Faldred]

I usually use relative terms.  I don't say "I'm level X in Y", or "I have a Q% chance to make P"; I use vague terms such as (mind you, this is usually as Zug, so his grammar is worse than this, but this post is OOC):

* Impossible --> I'm still learning how to make cougar skin bags
* ~10% chance --> Make platinum full plate? It's possible, but unlikely...
* ~25% chance --> I might be able to make you an iron longsword, if you provide the iron, but it's risky
* ~50% chance --> I can smelt those silver nuggets into ingots, if you don't mind me being inefficient
* ~75% chance --> I can probably cut that piece of Topaz without messing up
* ~90% chance --> I'm very good at making oak shields
* 100% chance --> I scribe "Magic Missile" scrolls in my sleep!

[EdTheKet]

Relative terms are very good, I tend to use those as well.

[ycleption]

Yes, I agree with that, but I would prefer to have a frame of reference that can be understood by someone who doesn't practice the same craft. Someone may not know how difficult it is to craft a particular item, but it would be really nice to be able to say "I'm no master, but if I retired from adventuring, I could certainly support myself" or "Yes, many nobles would like me to be their personal tailor" because that's more universally understandable. And I should say, I realize that an exact correspondence may be difficult to define, but a rough guide would be nice.

[Faldred]

In the more general sense you're talking about... a skilled commoner could probably make basic goods fairly reliably.  By "basic goods" I mean copper weapons or armors (maybe not the latter so much), basic cloth leather cloaks/armors, bread, low-end wines and ales, hickory wood products, or maybe very low end jewelry.

Some crafts (e.g. alchemy, enchanting, infusing, scribing) are generally beyond a commoner's abilities, period.

As such, the minimum crafting level to be considered an "expert" in that craft varies based on what level of "basic" materials the craft provides as finished products.

As for RP'ing being able to support yourself via crafting, understand the potential market.  Many crafted items are way, way beyond the needs or capabilities of the "average Joe", meaning your market is essentially adventurers, nobles, or officers (or less savory characters if your alignment and contacts lead you that way) -- you'd need to be pretty doggone good at making those items to make up for the lack of volume.  A tailor who can make simple clothing (robes) in his sleep can support himself (though at a relatively low level of comfort) quite easily, on the other hand.

[EdTheKet]

"I'm no master, but if I retired from adventuring, I could certainly support myself" or "Yes, many nobles would like me to be their personal tailor"

Those are also very good.

By "basic goods" I mean copper weapons or armors

The "basic commoner" wouldn't have a forge really

[Faldred]

EdTheKet - 2/20/2007  3:47 PM

The "basic commoner" wouldn't have a forge really

Well... yeah, I suppose.  But where to do arms and armor in the NPC shops come from, then?  

I guess the point I was trying to make is that the level of items you can buy from an NPC vendor would represent what a "respectable" NPC crafter could generate fairly reliably.

[Drizzlin]

ycleption - 2/20/2007  9:32 AM

One thing I have had trouble with, is giving RP descriptions of my crafting levels. Often people ask me things like "oh, how good of a [insert tradeskill] are you?" And I don't really feel I have a frame of reference to be able to answer these kinds of things well, without being rather vague. It would be really nice to have some sort of guide, to the effect of, the average home-maker has a tailoring level of x, the owner of a large city's apothecary has a alchemy of x, the kids in Hlint have fishing level x.
At what level could someone support themself with a trade? In this type of society, what level would the average peasant be? At what level would they be able to effectively teach the skill to others, or be considered a master in their field?

Thanks

If they ask a general question of "how good are you", I reply with some sort of general comment back. Such as "I am as good as I need to be", or "there is always room for improvement". As a master jewler, I say "You will never find my better". Now if they ask specifics, like "can you make X" (and X is trival to me), I say things like "X is beneith my time and energy, I'll have an apprentice whip one up for you...unless of course you are willing to pay extra for my PERSONAL time and energy". Sometimes I RP being insulted that they asked for me to make something so trival. Now all of this is IC of course.

There are so many ways to come back, just be creative. Don't limit your RP and experience by creating some "set" reference table to respond with.

[Drizzlin]

EdTheKet - 2/20/2007  12:47 PM

[The "basic commoner" wouldn't have a forge really

Are you looking at this from a historical stand point, or making a call as a DM in layo? A basic forge is a simple matter not expensive at all. A commoner could easily have a forge, given they own land and space for one. All they need is an open pit, some hammers, water supply, and anvil (or hard rock surface), and lots of wood to burn. These are the basic set up forges used throughout the middle ages by commoners to make pots and pans, horse shoes, and basic farming tools.

Now if you are talking about making high quality items, it is still possible to do with a basic "home made" forge, but then we have to look at the skill of the person. A commoner would not be that skilled, and if they were we would call them blacksmiths instead =P.

Now again I'm just talking from a historical and factually, rather than from a "rules" stand point.

[gilshem ironstone]

Black Cat told me of his personal measure for his crafting levels.  They are as follows:

1-7: Apprentice
8-14: Journeyman
15-20: Craftsman
21+: Master Craftsman

I like that as a basic frame of reference.

[EdTheKet]

But where to do arms and armor in the NPC shops come from, then

From the NPC blacksmiths?

Are you looking at this from a historical stand point, or making a call as a DM in layo?

Historical

A commoner could easily have a forge, given they own land and space for one. All they need is an open pit, some hammers, water supply, and anvil (or hard rock surface), and lots of wood to burn.

which is quite the list, so lots of commoners would not have this.

These are the basic set up forges used throughout the middle ages by commoners to make pots and pans, horse shoes, and basic farming tools.

Of course, but the example made above was that they could make weapons and armor, which is totally different from some pot or pan