PvP - Getting Hit Mechanically vs. Realistically/RP-Wise

[Gulnyr]

And if a giant hits your character on Dregar with his tree-like axe?  Or with that enormous boulder he threw?  And if you have three hit points left, which is certainly a bad situation in which you should have broken bones and a concussion and a collapsed lung?  How often should we RP these things?  

I totally get what you're saying, but in the end, it's all an abstraction.  If people RP that something hurt when it didn't do any hit point damage, great.  If not, great.  It can't be forced.

[miltonyorkcastle]

What I'm saying is, with enough magic, you might not feel the tree.

With just some "normal" armor, you'd feel the tree, certainly. With magic... well, it's magic.


EDIT: man, I must type slow.

[Gulnyr]

Even with normal armor, though, if a character doesn't lose hit points, it didn't really do anything serious.  I know that can seem screwy.

To try to tie in the hit point stuff from before, imagine that Terrence Treeswinger swings a tree at Stephanie Standingthere.  If it's a miss, maybe Stephanie dodged it with little effort.  If it's a hit, Stephanie loses hit points, but maybe she still dodged the tree.  Yes, I did in fact say that she still dodged the tree, despite being hit.  It just happens that this dodge was more strenuous, so it cost some hit points, which represent training and endurance as much or more than cuts sustainable.  So mechanically, she was nailed, but 'realistically' she dodged with great effort.  

If we're talking about swinging trees and throwing boulders, I think it's probably best to assume the 'effort to dodge' angle instead of the 'nailed by something stupidly enormous' one.  Lot of assumption in an abstract system.  It gets hairy.

This doesn't have anything to do with magic stuff.  It's magic.  It just works.  Asking how or why magic works seems like an exercise in futility and frustration.  That's irritating, I know.  The scientist in me gets upset.  I tell the scientist to relax about abstract systems and magical armor.

[miltonyorkcastle]

Well put, Gulnyr.

[Desicardo]

Along the lines of the magic bonuses referencing LOR, when Gandolf got hit with the flame lash whip from the Balrog on the bridge, he didn't take damage due to magical protection even though all he was wearing was his robes.  The magic took the blow even though it strained him to hold up the shield against the force put against it.  The drain of the combat was quite evident even though Gandolf never actually took physical damage from the Balrog.  So would it be considered that Gandolf took hp hits due to fatigue from the combat (before the bridge collapse) or did he have full hp at the end and only drained of magical energy and in need of rest?

[miltonyorkcastle]

I'd say both. Drained in magical power and drained of some HP.

[darkstorme]

As for the Mithril armour forged by Kobal that you were talking about, Shiff, think about the level of craftsmanship going into that armour.  This isn't just your average suit of scale mail, links forged together "close enough".  This is going to be a masterpiece of the forge.  Intricate cuts and sockets make it move easily with the body beneath it, but lock tight as a stone wall when a blow strikes it from the outside.

I'd presume that Master Adventurer's armour would have some spells built into it that account for that Soak 10 damage, or at least part of it.  For the rest, imagine a suit of thick leather, impossibly well-made (bear in mind, virtually nothing ever developed in real life is designed to absorb the kind of damage these outfits do).  If a magic field absorbed some of the hit, padding and thick leather could distribute the rest across a section of the body that would feel, at most, a minor blow.  A punch on the arm, instead of a bone-crushing hit.  Certainly not something someone accustomed to receiving wounds would allow to slow them down - nor likely even notice until well afterwards, when they're bathing and wonder where that bruise came from.

Plus, as Gulnyr put it, the randomness of the damage roll comes from the fact that your opponent is moving, and you're trying to take a swing at them while they're attacking you.  You're not going to land the best hit you could, in that situation - or maybe you'll get lucky, and hit them somewhere it hurts (ie. Critical Hit).  Most of the time, though, your blows will be glancing, not mortal.

Finally, the LoTR example - at that point, Frodo was, perhaps, level 4, if that.  Probably a rogue, so not much by way of hit points.  Troll comes in, and hits him dead on (a critical hit!) for fifty points of damage.  However, Frodo's mithril armour is rated at a Soak 26, so more than half of that blow is absorbed.  The remainder is enough to throw him off his feet, across the room, and knock him out... but had it been Gimli wearing the mithril, you can bet he would've grabbed the spear pressing into his chest, yanked it close, and given the troll a taste of Dwarven steel.  If you're tough enough to survive the damage dealt you, then it's not likely to throw you much of anywhere. If there's no damage dealt - then you've not been hurt, simple as that.

[Gulnyr]

Along the lines of the magic bonuses referencing LOR, when Gandolf got hit with the flame lash whip from the Balrog on the bridge, he didn't take damage due to magical protection even though all he was wearing was his robes.  The magic took the blow even though it strained him to hold up the shield against the force put against it.  The drain of the combat was quite evident even though Gandolf never actually took physical damage from the Balrog.  So would it be considered that Gandolf took hp hits due to fatigue from the combat (before the bridge collapse) or did he have full hp at the end and only drained of magical energy and in need of rest?

Could be either, or even something different that I can't imagine right now.  Maybe, heh.  The scene is a lot like the fluff text of a CDT where we can see the cool things that happened without knowing anything about the rolls behind it.

One way to imagine it is that he was totally protected by magic, but was exhausted after a while because magic takes a lot of effort.  Another way is to imagine that he was protected for the most part, but still lost hit points due to fatigue and could have eventually been too exhausted (low hit points), maybe with a few minor injuries, to properly defend himself and avoid one more blow, which would have actually done serious physical harm.

That brings up Layonara magic.  As far as I've seen, using magic in Layonara is not exhausting.  It doesn't seem to take a lot of effort.  A caster can cast three million buffs over the course of two minutes and run off like he just got off the couch.  When casters are out of or low on spells, they aren't tired; they just say, "Nope, can't do that right now."  So, if that LotR scene was on Layonara, without getting in-depth and considering the nature of protective spells here and whatnot, I would say he was losing hit points.

[Jaigan]

hehe, I knew gimili would end up in this thread sooner or later.
 
 As for random rolls for attack think baseball, just because they CAN hit homeruns they don't hit them all the time sometimes its a grounder to first base and your out  sometimes you catch it head on and its a hommer (crit)

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

Could be either, or even something different that I can't imagine right now.  Maybe, heh.  The scene is a lot like the fluff text of a CDT where we can see the cool things that happened without knowing anything about the rolls behind it.

One way to imagine it is that he was totally protected by magic, but was exhausted after a while because magic takes a lot of effort.  Another way is to imagine that he was protected for the most part, but still lost hit points due to fatigue and could have eventually been too exhausted (low hit points), maybe with a few minor injuries, to properly defend himself and avoid one more blow, which would have actually done serious physical harm.

That brings up Layonara magic.  As far as I've seen, using magic in Layonara is not exhausting.  It doesn't seem to take a lot of effort.  A caster can cast three million buffs over the course of two minutes and run off like he just got off the couch.  When casters are out of or low on spells, they aren't tired; they just say, "Nope, can't do that right now."  So, if that LotR scene was on Layonara, without getting in-depth and considering the nature of protective spells here and whatnot, I would say he was losing hit points.

To be honest, if I was writing a book on a Layo Quest, Sorcerers (Gandalf is "no conjurer of cheap tricks" but he has no spell book!  he a sorc) would be worn out since they ARE putting effort into spells.  Wizards are reading some words and making gestures.

[Tobias]

I think it does not matter what "B" was wearing because even in the second fight when "B" took off his clothing and but on a different set "A" still didn't score a hit due to a +47 parry! that "B" was using.
 
 And its not the fact that "A" didn't hurt "B", "B" might feel a little sore in the morning.
 
 Also you were fighting in expertise mode which hampered your attacking.
 
 
 The battle could of gone differently where Shiff could of came out on top. Just think of it as Tobias err I mean "B" was more prepared for what he was getting himself into then "A" was that day.
 
 Oh! And don't judge a book by its cover. *nods sagely and hides his bags of tricks*

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

Shut up you  :p  I'll get you yet  *grins*

[Chongo]

Oh geez... here we were talking about how in real life blunt trauma the aorta does rupture and the apple really does fall off the tree branch (seriously folks, don't think the seatbelt can save you from everything)... versus the magic of the lands as well as the best explanation of hitpoints I have seen, from Gulnyr (despite the animations we unfortunately see).
 
 And then the parry ego comes in.  I'm tempted to say 'time to fight a real rogue'... but then I realize that ego is a vicious cycle... as I then look down the line at Kobal and Angela.  And were there DT's in PvP... you'd see Ket swallowing and choking down some rotten Beryl dust along with his own ego.
 
 It's a vicious cycle Toby... dont' get sucked in!!!  

[LightlyFrosted]

I think the words 'abstract system' have to be said here.  Sure there's a little animation that we shed blood every time we get hit, but Gulnyr said it best - just because we got 'hit' doesn't mean we're hit.  It just means that our capacity to resist or avoid damage has been lowered, and we're getting closer to going into shock.

Realistically, the human body can only take so much punishment.  No matter how strong or tough you are, we're practically riddled with areas that, if you get a good jab at them, can lead to major complications and death.  It's possible you get cut up saber fencing, or it's possible that you don't actually start bleeding until 'badly wounded'.  The trick is, you're not able to dodge blows quite as quickly, because maybe you got nicked, or maybe you're getting tired.

If someone swings a big, BIG sword at you, and connects, you're going to be pretty badly hurt.  If someone fires a crossbow at an unarmoured bit of you, it's going to hurt.  A lot.  A lot of the time, when we get hit, we don't get hit - we just barely manage to avoid getting hit, or we get grazed.  Our armour ablates the blow, and we lose a little bit of the energy, the vitality, the dumb luck or divine favour that our hitpoints represent.

Another way of looking at it is hitpoints as the ability to avoid going into shock.  You aren't bleeding out until you can't stop yourself from bleeding out, after all; when your body has taken so much, or you've lost just enough of that spark that you're rendered helpless and dying.

What this says about healing potions (heavy narcotics?) and healing kits I'm not sure I want to know....

[Tobias]

*Scribbles on on some parchment "Need Beryl dust"*
 
 Toby's is not the best fighter, heck I wouldn't even call him a decent fighter. Does Toby know that yet? He will once Hardragh drags him to the arena and completly owns him with a single chant.  Or a level 10 mage casts fear that sends poor Toby screaming for his long lost mommy.
 
 So no.. I will not be sucked in by ego! And I will go looking for that rotten Beryl dust today!

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

Shiff has some  *snickers*

[DMOE]

Another way of looking at it is hitpoints as the ability to avoid going into shock.  You aren't bleeding out until you can't stop yourself from bleeding out, after all; when your body has taken so much, or you've lost just enough of that spark that you're rendered helpless and dying.

I like that!

Having spent various amounts of times around re-enactors.....who try and beat each other to death (as safely as possible) in full plate and using real although rarely (note I say rarely) sharp swords.....

Adrenaline.....

Pure and simple....

I've seen these guys fight like demons, win, laugh, joke, enjoy their victory and literally collapse as the walk off the field and the adrenaline goes

Let's be honest guys.....If your fighting for your life, instinct and training will take over......at least until the danger passes and THEN the broken arm is gonna hurt like hell!!

[EdTheKet]

That brings up Layonara magic. As far as I've seen, using magic in Layonara is not exhausting.

Using magic in the NWN version is not exhausting, but that's a system thing., you just get your spells based on DnD rules and that's it. If NWN came with a mana or stamina thing, then it would of course drain from that. But it's NWN, so it doesn't.


As for dragon scales, they're tough, and they're magical (i.e. some dragons have fire resistance, others have acid resistance etc.).

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

Ed, may I ask another question since you are the Lore Master?

The metal armors, Adamantium, Cobalt, Mithril...  Magical or just super strong?

[Hellblazer]

If NWN came with a mana or stamina thing, then it would of course drain from that. But it's NWN, so it doesn't.

( i know your speaking of sriptin there Ed)

But ingame rp wise I qualify the fact that after using up your amount of spells and then having no magic left, is the "mana" part of NWN. And basically you get more spell with level ups so your "mana" goes up too.

a small edit:

about freldo, he did not get hit straight on with the spear, instead he got hit with the guard of the spear (the part that stops a body from going past the point it self)

more like a half hit if you ask me (the spear itself hit the wall in between his arm and the body, the guard crushed him on the wall taking his breath out)