Roleplaying Charisma

[Frelinder]

I have just started to play a new character Boon Loom. He is an fighter into the bone. when he goes out for adventuring and hunting he is often the party leader or the ones that take the lead and the rest follows. His stats in wis and cha is 8 so it isnt based on that. He doesn't need to persuade the others.. his confident and strenght in battle and his skills as a fighter makes the other think that this man knows what he is doing. he sure knows how to fight. so in this case his strong actions instead of his strong personalitys makes him a leader. He have studied warfare whole his life... (int 14) so he knows what he is doing on the battle field.

So what I'm tryinfng to say is that cha is a verry flexible modifyer that you don't have any rules for. A fighter like Boon with low cha can be a party leader that people will listen too altough his low cha.

Its not like strenght that is more like an black and white thing. either you are verry strong.. or you are verry weak. much easier to make up some sort of rules in this case.

[miltonyorkcastle]

I have always been curious what the mysterious "seventh" stat is.  "Seven" is a number of completion, and by that token, there must be one more stat.  It's not appearance, though that was a nice try.    

Anyway, a major reason why Charisma is such a subjective thing is due to the fact of Circumstance.  That is, depending on the situation, a person may come across as more or less charismatic.  Such as in the instance of Boon Loom.  Mechanically, when in battle or heading off to one, Boon apparently gets a "circumstance bonus" to all charisma based checks.  His ability and knowledge on the field of battle afford him that.  Were he to try and oversee the construction of a magical portal, he'd be scoffed.  No one would follow his leadership in such an endeaver unless he somehow previously proved he could pull it off.

And that goes to the idea that leadership is not as often based on force of personality, but on trust.  Force of personality can forge trust, but so can proven skill and experience.  

This of course lends to the idea that charisma is more about physical appearance and mannerisms than the ability to lead or even to gain followers.

[Gulnyr]

Maybe people are just following the guy who looks like he can find the most trouble.  I'm pretty sure that's why Cole ends up with a small army...

when he goes out for adventuring and hunting he is often the party leader or the ones that take the lead and the rest follows.

When he goes out for adventuring and hunting
So here we have a character who has a plan.  He needs some ore or some skins, or maybe just wants to go kill something.

he is often the party leader
Is it not this character who has the plan of action?  It's his expedition, so he's the "leader".  A lot of others will gather about just to get a piece of the action.  Charisma is not really a part of this equation.  "That guy is doing something.  Let's follow him."

or the one that takes the lead and the rest follow.
Sometimes, people need a spark to get moving.  They wait until someone else acts.  Sheep, basically.  They flock together.  "Oh, we're moving."  The character who takes action will often get some followers.  Once again, "That guy is doing something.  Let's follow him."

This is not an example of true leadership.  With a Charisma of 8, a character should actually be a rather poor leader overall.  No doubt an experienced fighter could give some tactical advice, but that doesn't mean he has the interpersonal skills needed to be a LEADER.  Leaders have a special oomph! that can embolden those around them to greater deeds.  It's hard to put it into words, but it's definitely a Charisma thing.  

In my opinion, if you take an 8 Charisma then play a confident character with good manners, a powerful voice, and a rallying oratory that would make the gods bow low, you are cheating.  If you don't think you can play Charisma well, buy it to 10 and act normal.  

In making that statement, I am NOT suggesting that Frelinder has tried to gain an advantage by taking a lower Charisma.  I am suggesting that any character with a below average Charisma should be abrasive or rude or somehow unsocial to reflect that fact.

[darkstorme]

Agreed.  In addition, while being confident is a matter of INT, WIS, and the rest, projecting confidence, so that, as Frelinder said, "other think that this man knows what he is doing. he sure knows how to fight" is a function of Charisma.  A charisma of 8, while possibly not actively repellant, should at least make a character distasteful - either with an abrasive personality, overwhelming shyness, a speech disorder, or homely physical appearance.  8 is, after all, two steps below "average".  Anyone with a CHA of 6 should be actively repellant to those around them.

[Schmack]

Yeah, I've seen a few threads like this one, based on the whole 'what does charisma represent' topic and in my opinion, I think that charisma shouldn't really have anything to do with physical attractiveness, I mean, a female dwarf may have high charisma, but there's still the fact that they have beards. I think charisma should really just represent how charismatic they are, how not... socially inept they are, and how good they are at leading.

Just my opinion though, i might be completely wrong

[Gulnyr]

I was thinking a little about that a earlier.  

According to the standard rules, Charisma does involve physical attractiveness.  That works fine in a P&P game, where there are only a few characters and the DM knows each pretty well, and just about everything is in the imagination.  Here, though, there are problems with it, and it's better not to include looks too heavily in Charisma.

First, there are hundreds of characters being played on Layonara.  There is no way any DM or player can know exactly which of them are supposed to be ugly or handsome/pretty and act accordingly every time.

Second, the graphics don't give many options.  All the models are the same, so (pretty much) everyone has a great body, even if they shouldn't.  Now check out the portraits.  How many of them are truly ugly?  How many are average or plain?  

On top of that, I honestly believe most people ignore Charisma when creating their characters, except in the case of Bards, Clerics, and Paladins.  I suspect there are a lot of 8's.  So, if everyone is going to look that good, shouldn't they have terrible personalities to properly represent their Charisma stats?

Including appearance in Charisma in this format just doesn't work very well.

[Nibor21]

Well if everyone else has had a say......

I play a PC who is deliberately ugly. not just plain looking but the sort of girl who if the choice was between snogging her and snogging a zombie, the zombie would end up thinking this undead lifestyle is pretty neat!

Without a comeliness stat I gave her a deliberately low Charisma. However I try to ensure her ugliness has also affected the rest of her personality. She doesn't like to lead - that means being looked at!

Charisma is difficult to play in NWN and I suggest that people think carefully about it before they create there character. In the name of RP you may decide to sacrifice that all important primary stat to accurately get your charisma right. If you look at a real life/nwn comparison I would say look at (grabs dictionary of Americanism) Jocks (Paladins?) and the class joker (bard?). Both are popular and charismatic but in different ways.

In addition if you play a horribly sarcastic individual then maybe a bard/paladin/sorc isn't the role for you as people will dislike you and perceive you as a PC with low charisma (there are some on Layonara you know who you are!)

While charisma may certainly dictate leadership ability it shouldn't dictate groups of friends. When I was at school (memories are little hazy that many years ago) low charisma people formed there own groups of friends - they were called nerds by others and Role-players by themselves. But they had their own well adjusted social groups.

In addition a real brute is likely to have lots of friends as people always like big people just in case they get into a fight. Looking back at the school yard again I give you the bully. Big, dumb and with the sex appeal of Ghast. Generally no social skills that didn't involve toilets and other peoples head. but he was popular in his own unique way.

[Weeblie]

That's why one shouldn't min/max...

Personally, I try to avoid putting 8:s in int/wis/cha, except when creating characters that *should* have low on those abilities (like, half-orcs).

[ttdavet]

when role playing I make decisions about what my character would do based on my stats, Charisma included.  My fighter has a below average charisma, I don't lead parties, I follow.  I have noticed that many folks have done a nice job of playing characters with limited intelligence.  I think it is tempting to min/max charisma because if we ignore it while roleplaying it has such limited effect on game play.   If you character has a low charisma and you lead large groups and talk folks into things not with the dice bag but with you own keyboard charm you aren't really roleplaying.  If you have a low intelligence and constantly use your own high intellect to propose sollutions you aren't really roleplaying.  For me playing within the boundaries of all my stats is what make roleplaying fun.   However, playing a character with a high stat in charisma or intelligence would be a real stretch for me as I don't possess either of those myself.

[Faldred]

Zug has low CHA, below average INT, and above average WIS.  This makes for an interesting combination.

I try to play him more as a follower.  Whenever he's been the leader (nominally) of a party, he constantly is asking what should be done next, where to go, whatever.  Pretty much a one-track mind ("what need be smashud?").  He's likely to say something coarsely and/or tactless in conversation, and he never seriously tries to bluff or persuade (with or without the dicebag).

The INT/WIS combination I play as dumb, but with kind of a folksy wisdom.  He's not smart enough to come up with great ideas, but every once in a while, he can say something that is profound in its own simple and rustic way.

[Varka]

Didn't read all the other posts, wasn't in the mood.  

But here's my view on charisma.

Charisma is a PCs aura:

Example. A stranger walks into a local bar
cha 6 - You notice the stranger and he/she gives you a bad feeling in the guts -
cha 10 - you dont even notice the stranger - just a normall feller/fellar
cha 14 - You notice him/her and the stranger looks trustworthy
cha 18 - no idea...........

[Faldred]

Varka - 4/28/2006  9:06 AM

Didn't read all the other posts, wasn't in the mood.  

But here's my view on charisma.

Charisma is a PCs aura:

Example. A stranger walks into a local bar
cha 6 - You notice the stranger and he/she gives you a bad feeling in the guts -
cha 10 - you dont even notice the stranger - just a normall feller/fellar
cha 14 - You notice him/her and the stranger looks trustworthy
cha 18 - no idea...........

On that scale...

CHA 18 - you'd follow the stanger into a highly dangerous situation, if asked
CHA 25 - you'd follow the stranger to certain death, if asked

[Yosemite Sam]

I find some look at low stats far too harshly.  Micheal started life with a 9 int. Doesnt that roughly correspond to a 90-99 IQ?  Anyone care to hazard a guess to what percentage of the human population falls in that range, with the avg just above 100?  I think a lot of the half giants have an int of 8, yet can barely speak.  I think they need to have lower int to get to that level, down around 6 or so.  Chr is others perception of you, very hard to role play, since no matter what you do, you cant force others to respond appropriatly, and the medium doesnt have enough bandwidth to get all the little details across.  How others percieve you (chr) is affected by so many more things than speech and appearacne.  Gracefullnes, stance, body language, smell, culture, and others percieved reaction to you to name a few.

[miltonyorkcastle]

Yup, charisma is super situational and subjective.  What one race/culture may think is graceful or commanding, another may think is trash.

[Lalaith Va'lash]

Yosemite Sam - 4/28/2006 Chr is others perception of you, very hard to role play, since no matter what you do, you cant force others to respond appropriatly, and the medium doesnt have enough bandwidth to get all the little details across. How others percieve you (chr) is affected by so many more things than speech and appearacne. Gracefullnes, stance, body language, smell, culture, and others percieved reaction to you to name a few.

 While true, I have found it possible to touch on more of the senses often ignored, which gives other PC's more information to percieve you by. Ultimately it is still up to them and how they respond, appropriate to sombody with a high or low cha or not... but it helps a lot.
  For example: Anybody that has recieved a letterfrom Kali, or has had the oppertunity to get close enough to her, knows her perfume, or how she smells.She also has small gracefull mannerismsand random emotes that at least willmake most stop and consider responding to her high cha. Its just all about description, and taking the time to use words often related to all the seneses.
  Contrasting that, Lalaith, with a much lower cha is often covered withdirt and wiping blood and sweat from her face with the back of her hands. Though very graceful, intelligent,andprobably pretty, she certainly doesn't have the same charismatic mannerisms as Kali.

[darkstorme]

@Yosemite Sam - bear in mind, some of the half-giants/half-ogres who can barely speak wouldn't have been taught Common as children... so they're individuals of lower-than-average intelligence trying to pick up what is, to them, a foreign langugage.  In that context, it makes perfect sense that they can't speak.  Bear in mind, 95% of the population (1.96 standard deviations) range within the IQs of 71 and 129 - So between an approximate INT of 7 and 13, taking the GAP of IQ = INT * 10.  Anyone at 7 or below, then, is quite astonishingly dim, while anyone with an IQ above 13 is amazingly bright.  I don't think this is ENTIRELY accurate, but regardless, anyone with less than double digits in the INT column isn't going to be too bright

[Honora]

I'm with Grym.  I'd like to see the stat split into personality and physical attractiveness (subjective to race, of course).  Honora has above average INT and WIS, and a CHA of 8.  Why then do I speak up and nudge groups along sometimes and even lead once and a while?  Because her CHA is solely her appearance.  Honora is ugly.  She collects battle scars, which criss-cross her line map lines, and has many areas of skin that are shiney-looking from recovered burns (part of her learning curve to Improved Evasion .  She is tall and gangly with short bristly hair.  She's someone you'd look at and go, Whoa...ugly.  Not to mention the yellow orc fangs and thick yellow toe-and-fingernails.

Uggggggly.

If the stat were split, her physical would drop and her personality would go way up, because I simply cannot play an ugly personality.  I'm just too girly .  But the game mechanics do not allow for that, so I muddle along and try to let people know how ugly she is if they ask.

My 2gp....many ways to play CHA.

[tobeelijah]

I have an idea .. look up the word charisma in the dictionary......
A person with high charisma is a charming charasmatic person.
I don't know what else to say.

[darkstorme]

"A person with high charisma is a charming charasmatic[sic] person."  That's a pretty poor definition, given that you use the term you're defining in the defintion.

Charisma is a combination of physical attractiveness, force of personality, and force of will.  A green dragon may not be beautiful, per se, but it has a high charisma because ANYONE is inclined to do what it says.  Force of personality mixed with a healthy dose of Intimidation.  Henry the Fifth, of Shakespearean fame, was charismatic - "Once more into the breach!"

As for a comment above (don't quite remember who at the moment.. let's see.. ah, Schmack) about female dwarves - they may have beards, but that's based on a purely human standard of beauty - and a human standard of beauty wherein Tolkein-esque "dwarves" don't exist.  Other dwarves may find them devastatingly beautiful, and there surely are members of other races whose tastes veer from normal and would likewise find them beautiful.  Charisma may not be solely based on physical attractiveness, but you cannot make attractiveness judgements based on a human viewpoint and assume them as true for all races.  Fantasy this may be, but it's very racial-centric nonetheless.

[stragen]

Varka - 4/29/2006  12:06 AM

Example. A stranger walks into a local bar
cha 6 - You notice the stranger and he/she gives you a bad feeling in the guts -
cha 10 - you dont even notice the stranger - just a normall feller/fellar
cha 14 - You notice him/her and the stranger looks trustworthy
cha 18 - no idea...........

I play two characters that may illuminate some more issues on this debate.

One is a priest of Aeridin with average charisma.

The other is a swashbuckling pirate with above average charisma.  

I have noticed that through roleplay, most people are more likely to trust the priest then the pirate.  Simply based on how they are dressed.  Almost everyone trusts a priest of Aeridin.  But a charming flamboyantly dressed pirate captain gets little trust or respect.  Even if the other PCs are amused by the pirates stories and charm, they don't trust him.

As a side note I have found that the more often your PC makes persuade checks.  That is to get other PCs to trust the character, the more likely the other PC will NOT trust the character, even if they fail their will check.  I expect this is a reaction from the player not the character that is trying to be influnced.  The player is worried that their character is about to be hoodwinked.  Whereas the character would not notice if they failed their will check.