Lore and classes.

[Witch Hunter]

A few questions have recently been brought to my attention lately (namely a 101RP Q/A)

1)
Lets say we have Mr.Pickles, a fighter of some matter and an intelligent person overall (above average intelligence, high lore and so forth) he reads books and even writes them in his spare time!
How much would Mr.Pickles be able to tell on a monster by seeing it? what can he use to determine what he actually knows about said monster WITHOUT a DM nearby - clearly with a DM I just roll a check, but when alone what is my guide? common sense? that's a strong phrase, especially considering most monsters other than a few mysterious ones are already documented everywhere and beyond (and we're speaking ingame)... how would you determine what you know about a creature using skills at your disposal?

2)
Are you limited by your class in hobbies? I was told only a wizard can commit a successful research on a given subject (perhaps studying a beetle or some other creature) because his class his defined by research - however I rarely see any wizard do any research beyond how well said beetle burns when a fireball hits it.
Now a fighter or rogue for example (both with high lore, intelligence and perhaps even healing to study anatomy)..
Could they successfully examine a body to determine weaknesses, strengths, perhaps other interesting facts?
Reasons are a plethora: studying the weaknesses so he may battle more effectively, general interest etc etc.
The answers I've heard so far are that a fighter wouldn't have interest in such subjects - he's a fighter, but isn't that very close minded and very stereotypical? (Even the Order of the Stick made a joke about that
Couldn't anyone that has the required skills do whatever he wishes? (CNR won't refuse a wizard trying to be a black smith, nor a fighter trying to be an alchemist... why not fighters that are scholars outside the CNR system?)

[LynnJuniper]

Maybe not COMPLETLEY Related: But my comment on the matter:

This is one of those times where I actually know a little something about PNP and wish that NWN did it in that way. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think In PnP Lore skill points were broken down into things like: Lore[Religion], Lore[Planes] , Lore[Arcania], and so on. This is a system I would've loved to see adopted on an RP server (not sure how practical that is though.) It would make questions like yours a lot less ambiguous and a bit easier to answer.

[Witch Hunter]

I agree - thought I think it would require an extra hakpak.. and then anyone who already took points in lore would have to have his skills changed and so forth...

[Nibor21]

Yeah i wish there was Lore [cultural] and Lore [crafting]. Now certainly lore cultural is more or less impossible to add to Layo, but maybe the crafting if someone really had the inclination.

The cultural one indicates that a PC would know a reasonable amount about the history of their tribe/home village etc as well as the specific fables relating to it.

For example I know a reasonable amount English mythology with great detail to the immediate village i grew up in (there is a great tale of a haunted hill where English Knights and Welsh raiders will fight for eternity), but know almost nothing of african or japanese mythology.

So therefore cultural is one of those things that really you can only RP with a GM

[Weeblie]

As I said, nothing is set in stone and you do not necessary have to be a wizard to successfully study any of those things. Wizards are naturally better at it, because they do it for living. A fighter on the other hand, he would normally beat the wizard in any sort of physical work and... say... battle strategies.

The tricky part here is that it's possible to come up with exceptions for everything.

I could make a fighter, putting all available skill points into Lore, every single ability point into intelligence instead of strength that's normal... and... voilá! You suddenly have a character that makes sense to be called "excellent schoolar" even though he's not one of the normal "schoolar" classes.

The thing is... I don't believe anyone is crazy enough to do that, especially not when it comes down to ability points. Heh... The extra ability points you get every 4th level can be seen of what your character has been doing (and hence, improving). Did he practice with his weapons or did he choose to stick his nose into books all the time?

Actually, he doesn't even have to do that. A ranger (or a fighter, but a ranger is a better example, because of their focus against a few selected preys) would most probably know more about how creature X sleeps, walks, hides, fights, eats, etc than what a "random wizard Joe" would. But that's because he's focusing on that specific creature. He hunts them for living. It's his busniess to know about X.

The key here is the same as in real life. There are only a limited number of hours each day and it's simply not possible to exceed in every single area.

One has to remember that Layonara is a multiplayer game. To become "best" in something isn't as easy as in a singleplayer game, because everyone (well... not everyone, but a lot of people, I would say) want to play the protagonist and that's not possible (in the usual protagonist sence).

There are usually always someone higher up in the foodchain than oneself. Due to a wizard's higher intelligence and experience in doing experiments and researches (this isn't always true, but for 99,99999999% of the cases, it is), he will have an upper hand if you compare with the fighter oriented type.

This is in fact also shown in the CNR system. If we have stereotype builds of a wizard and a fighter (not the abnormal wizards with 18 str on creation, or fighters with 18 int on creation ), and both has 0 points in... say... weapon crafting. Then, the fighter will have a much higher chance of success, because he is naturally better at it!

Edit: Have to add something on the knowledge about monsters part. While most people might have heard about... say... dragons, and people indeed know they are huge, they have sharp teeth, wings, different color, they are fond of shiney objects (read: treasures) and they breath fire (or some other elemental type), the details about how the organs of the dragons are set, their magical capabilities and their limits, etc, are much harder to find and one most probably would have to do some "serious searching" for the information.

That's basicly what the Lore score stands for: The amount of such "book reading" (or whatever) one has been doing.

As many other people have said, the "normal" Knowledge system instead of the Lore + Spellcraft one is much better because of the details. Though... NWN was created around its campaign... not for a "true" PnP game.

[EdTheKet]

Witch Hunter - 2/23/2007  5:53 AM  A few questions have recently been brought to my attention lately (namely a 101RP Q/A)  1) Lets say we have Mr.Pickles, a fighter of some matter and an intelligent person overall (above average intelligence, high lore and so forth) he reads books and even writes them in his spare time! How much would Mr.Pickles be able to tell on a monster by seeing it? what can he use to determine what he actually knows about said monster WITHOUT a DM nearby - clearly with a DM I just roll a check, but when alone what is my guide? common sense? that's a strong phrase, especially considering most monsters other than a few mysterious ones are already documented everywhere and beyond (and we're speaking ingame)... how would you determine what you know about a creature using skills at your disposal?  

 Use your own common sense first. Mr Pickles reads books you say, allright, but what books does he read, does he make extensive study of monsters (and if so, do you have the RP to back that up), or does he just read occasionally. Also, note that books are rare, there's no printing press, it's all handwork, so it wouldn't be like there's a lot of books around. Especially on the rarer monsters, like everything that's not commonly encountered there'd be limited books. So reading about those in your spare time, would actually mean you'd have to travel to a pretty well stocked library to read it there, so it wouldn't be a spare time thing, but a real effort.
  Of course, there's also experience, if you've fought lots and lots of a certain type of monster, you get a feel for their capabilities and weak spots. However, the rarer the monster, the harder it is to gain this knowledge of course.
  General note on Lore, a high lore score doesn't mean you know a lot about everything. When I (speaking for myself as GM) would ask a lore roll when somebody is investigating a dead monster to see what it is, I'd take into account what class the character is (and background if I know), and if somebody investigates a poison type (to name an example) I'd take the lore and the person's poison crafting skill.
 

2) Are you limited by your class in hobbies? I was told only a wizard can commit a successful research on a given subject (perhaps studying a beetle or some other creature) because his class his defined by research - however I rarely see any wizard do any research beyond how well said beetle burns when a fireball hits it. Now a fighter or rogue for example (both with high lore, intelligence and perhaps even healing to study anatomy).. Could they successfully examine a body to determine weaknesses, strengths, perhaps other interesting facts?  Reasons are a plethora: studying the weaknesses so he may battle more effectively, general interest etc etc. The answers I've heard so far are that a fighter wouldn't have interest in such subjects - he's a fighter, but isn't that very close minded and very stereotypical? (Even the Order of the Stick made a joke about that Couldn't anyone that has the required skills do whatever he wishes? (CNR won't refuse a wizard trying to be a black smith, nor a fighter trying to be an alchemist... why not fighters that are scholars outside the CNR system?)

 There's no reason why a fighter or rogue couldn't study a body to determine weaknesses, I would think Healing and Lore rolls would be nice to use for this. Wizards probably aren't too interested in physical weaknesses, they'd more focus on the magical. Fighters could be interested in weaknesses, if you know you only need to stick your sword there to kill something that'd be very beneficial. However, a lot of that would come from experience fighting a certain creature, or hearing it from others. I'd think it less likely for a fighter to have a degree in anatomy (or the time to study all of that and also work on honing his fighting skills).
  So.. studying takes time and you cannot learn everything, there's simply not enough time in the day and it would (in my book at least) depend a bit on character class on what he'd know. I wouldn't give a rogue the chance of knowing a lot of some planar creature, in contrast to a mage who's more likely to know that kind of stuff.

[Witch Hunter]

I've another question:
The great library is stocked with a few books regarding deities, a poem or two and some other random lore - but in reality it doesn't live to the "great" name - can one succesfuly assume that there is a plethora of books on all subjects there? (Not saying that one would be capable of finding said books, but should it be assumed that theres at least a little bit about everything?)

[LynnJuniper]

Yes there is, and if you have a GM with you while looking for something quest related you're sure to come across atleast something that will help you. Its simply impossible to add the extensive amount of books needed to accurately represent the great library while keeping the module size practical.

---

That said: I would like it if perhaps the books could 'change' every so often, that is if someone was willing to write them and go in and change them. It's not going to happen , and once again not practical, just something that would be cool.

[Faldred]

LynnJuniper - 2/23/2007  12:35 AM

This is one of those times where I actually know a little something about PNP and wish that NWN did it in that way. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think In PnP Lore skill points were broken down into things like: Lore[Religion], Lore[Planes] , Lore[Arcania], and so on. This is a system I would've loved to see adopted on an RP server (not sure how practical that is though.) It would make questions like yours a lot less ambiguous and a bit easier to answer.

To be precise, in P&P it's the "Knowledge" skill family.  "Lore" was created for NWN as a sort of "lumping together" of the Knowledge tree.

d20 SRD

Knowledge (Int; Trained Only)

Like the Craft and Profession skills, Knowledge actually encompasses a number of unrelated skills. Knowledge represents a study of some body of lore, possibly an academic or even scientific discipline.

Below are listed typical fields of study.

    * Arcana (ancient mysteries, magic traditions, arcane symbols, cryptic phrases, constructs, dragons, magical beasts)
    * Architecture and engineering (buildings, aqueducts, bridges, fortifications)
    * Dungeoneering (aberrations, caverns, oozes, spelunking)
    * Geography (lands, terrain, climate, people)
    * History (royalty, wars, colonies, migrations, founding of cities)
    * Local (legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, humanoids)
    * Nature (animals, fey, giants, monstrous humanoids, plants, seasons and cycles, weather, vermin)
    * Nobility and royalty (lineages, heraldry, family trees, mottoes, personalities)
    * Religion (gods and goddesses, mythic history, ecclesiastic tradition, holy symbols, undead)
    * The planes (the Inner Planes, the Outer Planes, the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, outsiders, elementals, magic related to the planes)

Check

Answering a question within your field of study has a DC of 10 (for really easy questions), 15 (for basic questions), or 20 to 30 (for really tough questions).

In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster.

For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information.

Action

Usually none. In most cases, making a Knowledge check doesn’t take an action—you simply know the answer or you don’t.

Try Again

No. The check represents what you know, and thinking about a topic a second time doesn’t let you know something that you never learned in the first place.

Synergy

    * If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (arcana), you get a +2 bonus on Spellcraft checks.
    * If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (architecture and engineering), you get a +2 bonus on Search checks made to find secret doors or hidden compartments.
    * If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (geography), you get a +2 bonus on Survival checks made to keep from getting lost or to avoid natural hazards.
    * If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (history), you get a +2 bonus on bardic knowledge checks.
    * If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (local), you get a +2 bonus on Gather Information checks.
    * If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (nature), you get a +2 bonus on Survival checks made in aboveground natural environments (aquatic, desert, forest, hill, marsh, mountains, or plains).
    * If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (nobility and royalty), you get a +2 bonus on Diplomacy checks.
    * If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (religion), you get a +2 bonus on turning checks against undead.
    * If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (the planes), you get a +2 bonus on Survival checks made while on other planes.
    * If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (dungeoneering), you get a +2 bonus on Survival checks made while underground.
    * If you have 5 or more ranks in Survival, you get a +2 bonus on Knowledge (nature) checks.

Untrained

An untrained Knowledge check is simply an Intelligence check. Without actual training, you know only common knowledge (DC 10 or lower).

[Tialle Dianesis]

This is only partially related to the first question, and I have to ask: Has anyone ever considered categorizing some, if not most the monsters in Layo? Maybe a book within the game that lists the monsters and gives a bit of detail on each, or even something to be added to the forums, or Lore. I think it would help flesh things out a bit more in the world itself. "The Encyclopedia of Layo Monsters" Anyone? I was going to post this in the  Ideas and Suggestions forum section, but I think it would make this more fun if the players themselves put the effort into compiling this list. It could prove to be another good reason for someone to explore the world.
If this already exists or I'm asking for the impossible please point this out to me :p

[Witch Hunter]

I've actually begun to slowly write a sielwood manual ingame, with my character (and this has been roleplayed with some friends while in Sielwood).
I've 2 5000 books with information about the beetles and spiders of sielwood, nothing too fancy but people said its a fun read :p mainly explaining the anatomy of said creatures and some of their abilities and what they might produce that is useful (silk, glands etc)

But i've no chance of doing advanced monsters, only basic stuff like spiders, beetles and other insects > maybe goblins and orcs in the future.

if you want to read what I wrote so far ask in game :O

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Pyyran's had an article on deaders written up for ages... But then the Whisper stopped mailing...

I might have to get back on that.

Oh, and I've always rather disliked the Lore system. Knowledge is better... Easier to spread ranks appropriately.

Anything your character has fought several times, you can assume your character is familiar with, at least in passing. But always try to think of a name for the thing that your character would come up with, rather than always using the labels.

For example, most Darksouls and Shadow Fiends are just "Shades" "Lesser Shades" "Greater Shades" and "Bloody deaders" to Pyyran. *Grins.*

[EdTheKet]

can one succesfuly assume that there is a plethora of books on all subjects there? (Not saying that one would be capable of finding said books, but should it be assumed that theres at least a little bit about everything?)

While there's many a book in the Great Library, it does not contain all the knowledge in the world. Nor does it contain books on every single subject.
The Great Library is an elven library which was lost at sea centuries ago  (210 years before the cataclysm) and was retrieved relatively recently (in 1377) by the players and a home for it on Voltrex (as the elves were technically the rightful owners). So for almost 1600 years it was lost, and consequently, its collection did not expand during the time it was lost.
Of course books have been added to its collection since it was returned to Voltrex, but during the 1600 years it was gone, many other centers of learning can be found in the world. For many things magical, you may be better off at Spellgard, for things relating to law, you may be better off at the Rofireinites, and the Aragenites should definitely be considered due to their constant information gathering.
In addition, it was an elven library, so their primary interest would be in elven books, so especially all the books from before it was lost would be elven.

Also, books are rare, as all need to be copied by hand due to the lack of a printing press.

So, while the Great Library holds a lot of knowledge, it most certainly does not hold all.

Has anyone ever considered categorizing some, if not most the monsters in Layo?

Yes, but I won't go into that further

[Tialle Dianesis]

Witch hunter, I figured someone might have already started a collection of knowledge on creatures, and if I could only take the time to understand how the scribing item works I'd do the same. I also had a similar idea of starting an Encyclopedia that gives details on the location of hard-to-find minerals, herbs, wood, etc.... but I'll see when I get started on my collection. >_o I'll stop by and ask about seeing what books you have with you, sometime.

Stephen, thanks for the tip on naming the creatures. I was also wondering how I would cover those creatures that were the same species but a different class. It does make things more interesting when I can get creative on the creature's names just based on the way they look.

[Witch Hunter]

Yeah good tip there Stephen.


Prepare for the..... fart beetles.