The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => Roleplaying => Topic started by: osxmallard on September 12, 2007, 02:15:49 pm
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If you don't know where it is, great.
If you think you know where it is... you shouldn't know it is there unless you have been taken there by a Corathite or are a member of the Corathite faith. All the character sees is a building set into the hillside. RP wise, there is not a nameplate on the door that says "Chanda" and "XXX XXX, Temple of Corath".
Remember, the Corathites would not lead someone to the place who could reveal their location. They have spent too much time, money and energy to avoid this happening. They know how many enemies they have.
Note: The door being unlocked and allowing anyone to just walk right in allows alot of this metagaming to happen, is unrealistic, and there should be temple keys issued to the followers (since it is treated like a PC Home). If possible, the name should also be removed from the door.
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So to all those who've I'd RP'd with lately about things pertaining to the Mad God.... Uh... See me ingame for the "revised" edition of Shiff's stupidity =)
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Thank you for this post! Very long in coming and agreed 100%, this temple is something that has been metagamed by player and GM alike from day one.
There is a tiny handful of characters that have come by this knowledge in a different fashion and could pass it on, but have certainly never been inside and made it back out unless taken by one of the faith.
However, in the future (not that it matters now), simple notices OOC nearby would be nice to have in-game, just so people know even if they don't read one post amidst many others in the forums, etc.
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I see. So not only is Kor disallowed from making potions at any of his enemy gods' temples, but his allies' too.
ho hum. Time to start trekking to Firesteep I guess.
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Sneak in with sanc if you're allowed! Ask a Corathite! Something!
I think the general point is that for all the good characters out there, Corathites don't exactly announce their plans and invite them to housewarming parties, etc. I remember when it was still mostly new, and utterly unspoken yet, several good characters simply saw the door and was like "ah yes they have a new temple on Mistone, I came across it in my travels." when the whole point was that no, you don't just come across it in your travels, and it doesn't have a nameplate on the door. It was just assumed from day one and is one of those things that needs some roleplay to really think about what your character should and shouldn't know.
I'm pretty sure that's the crowd it was targeted to - for allied characters, I can't say and would want to ask the ones running the temple what the story is there. I imagine even if the welcome mat was out (and I don't know), they'd want discretion, though.
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I see. So not only is Kor disallowed from making potions at any of his enemy gods' temples, but his allies' too.
ho hum. Time to start trekking to Firesteep I guess.
Uh, that's not what's being said here. Please don't put words into our mouths.
In this case, most people should NOT know of the temple's existence unless explicitly shown by a Corathite. Quite simply, the door to the temple does not advertise the fact that it's a temple to Corath despite what game mechanics may show you.
If Kor was shown this temple, then fine. If not, then he shouldn't be using it to make potions or any other purpose. We are not saying who can or cannot utilize a temple of an allied/friendly god. We are referring to this one specific temple only and it's knowledge among the characters in the world.
There is, of course, another temple that's far easier to get to and far better advertised in Arnax. Use that one.
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There is, of course, another temple that's far easier to get to and far better advertised in Arnax. Use that one.
*Shiff runs off to Arnax to cause...
Heh... No chance...
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Hehe...Guess I get to be one of the few handfuls that know, then. Always nice to almost lose an arm in the process though :p
In all seriousness, thanks for the heads up. What's the appearance of it really supposed to look like? Is it a door in the middle of a hill, or...? Kinai's aware of it, but for any other of my characters who come across it, I'd like to RP that properly.
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My understanding of it from when I first joined Layo was that, mechanics-wise it is where it is on that screen, but RP-wise it is set way back up into the mountains where you won't just stumble across it.
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In all seriousness, thanks for the heads up. What's the appearance of it really supposed to look like? Is it a door in the middle of a hill, or...? Kinai's aware of it, but for any other of my characters who come across it, I'd like to RP that properly.
Yeah, it's a door set into the side of a hill/mountain.
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This definitely seems to be something that should have a permanent way of making sure this is not misunderstood. A flag outside the door, or a GM note when you approach the door saying if you're not being lead here by a Corathite then you don't see the door. At least some jedi mind trick kind of thing (this is not the door you are looking for). Maybe the undead outside should be romoved as well as that would certainly attract good characters if there was a place in the mountains where undead were wandering around. Thanks for putting this information out since I for one didn't understand how hidden and secret this particular temple was supposed to be.
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My only issue with this is that if some of the PCs that know of the temple's existence are "good" based PCs especially LG PCs and they are keeping that info quite from others of their faith and their ("good") friends then we have a alignment issue thing going on.
If Wren knew where it was he would most certainly sit down with other followers of Folian and other people that he knows to be good people and tell them and tell them to spread the word.
So if you know where it is and you are a good based PC and you are protecting them then.... issue!
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There is a good way to make it Corath exclusive... Just put a natural barrier like a stream or climbing rock that you have to go through to reach it, and have it instead of doing a climb check, just permit entry and exit via checking the Diety field for Corath. You say that it can't be stumbled upon if you don't know where it is, but you and I and everyone all know that players exploring for monsters to fight will almost always find it. It's there, they see the door, they enter. Most people don't even read the forums to see this notice.
Making an actual "Corath Only" checkpoint is a far greater solution than putting up an OOC notice that breaks immersion. Putting up a sign that says "this is a top secret hidden area" would be cruel tempting curious players, and wouldn't make it very hidden.
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*looks up at jrizz's post*
That thought had occurred to me as well. I mean once the cat is out of the bag on something like that it's not going to be a secret any more. If even one Toranite knew where it was it would be posted in every temple as a primary focus of surveilance. So I guess the question is whether or not anyone on the good side has come to the knowledge of the temple via whatever method and has spread the word. If that has ever happened in the past then things are very different. I thinking that a permanent temple of a god like Corath is only possible in an evil kingdom. Any kingdom that has effective law enforcement is eventually going to discover such a base of operations unless there is some special god protection or something keeping it from being discovered. Intersting discussion. :)
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My only issue with this is that if some of the PCs that know of the temple's existence are "good" based PCs especially LG PCs and they are keeping that info quite from others of their faith and their ("good") friends then we have a alignment issue thing going on.
If Wren knew where it was he would most certainly sit down with other followers of Folian and other people that he knows to be good people and tell them and tell them to spread the word.
So if you know where it is and you are a good based PC and you are protecting them then.... issue!
The issue here is: The LG characters that know of it...how did they learn of it? If they were out adventuring one day and saw it, then they didn't find the temple of Corath. Keeping that information from others is then not an issue because...heh...they don't have any information to keep from others, and as such, there's no alignment issue either.
If they were shown it by a member of the Corath faith...well...I find that unlikely, unless they were being recruited...or being taken for "interrogation". Even then, the chances they'd be allowed to see the location of the entrance is slim.
As far as mechanical solutions to metagaming...Warning triggers are fine. Scripted solutions to only allow certain groups past are, I think, too much. It actually closes the door to all sorts of RP, such as recruitment, initiation and the afore-mentioned interrogation.
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*looks up at jrizz's post*
That thought had occurred to me as well. I mean once the cat is out of the bag on something like that it's not going to be a secret any more. If even one Toranite knew where it was it would be posted in every temple as a primary focus of surveilance. So I guess the question is whether or not anyone on the good side has come to the knowledge of the temple via whatever method and has spread the word. If that has ever happened in the past then things are very different. I thinking that a permanent temple of a god like Corath is only possible in an evil kingdom. Any kingdom that has effective law enforcement is eventually going to discover such a base of operations unless there is some special god protection or something keeping it from being discovered. Intersting discussion. :)
And that's just the thing. The Corathites who built it went through great lengths and expense to get the temple built in secrecy in the middle of what amounts to hostile territory. The only reason most people know of its location is due to OOC information being portrayed in-game, specifically the label on the door.
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Thank you for this post! Very long in coming and agreed 100%, this temple is something that has been metagamed by player and GM alike from day one.
There is a tiny handful of characters that have come by this knowledge in a different fashion and could pass it on, but have certainly never been inside and made it back out unless taken by one of the faith.
However, in the future (not that it matters now), simple notices OOC nearby would be nice to have in-game, just so people know even if they don't read one post amidst many others in the forums, etc.
Daralith and Bakee never told a soul... So Bakee said keep the witch away from her! =-)
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Just some thoughts. In the case that the temple is known only to followers and a select few other individuals one would think that followers that renounced the faith would be hunted to avoid the revealing of it's location... anyone who knows for that matter. I think it'd be cool to have skeletons attack at random those characters that do know :) or other cool undead creatures. Just a thought... it's kinda a catch 22. If the people that do know live to spread the word everyone would know, much like everyone knows there are bad creatures on Belinara even if they havn't been there because others have spread that around. On the other hand if the ones that know are openly hunted then suspisions will be raised. Again just my thoughts.
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Perhaps make the entrance to it be a magical bush like in that place on central. Only true exploring in corners of the world would discover it.
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There is a tiny handful of characters that have come by this knowledge in a different fashion and could pass it on, but have certainly never been inside and made it back out unless taken by one of the faith.
@Dorg, my post came to me based on the above statement. If anyone of those tiny handful of characters is of "good" alignment or counts themselves on the side of good in good vs evil then the cat should be out of the bag. If not then they have done a great job in keeping the temple secret.
As a note: one of them should make a new PC named "You never found this door". Then make that PC the owner and lock it and give out keys.
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@Dorg, my post came to me based on the above statement. If anyone of those tiny handful of characters is of "good" alignment or counts themselves on the side of good in good vs evil then the cat should be out of the bag. If not then they have done a great job in keeping the temple secret.
I see....though just because someone is of "Good" alignment doesn't mean they'll be in a hurry to turn over Corathites to the Toranite and/or Rofireinite "authorities"....or blab it to the rest of the "Good" team.
As a note: one of them should make a new PC named "You never found this door". Then make that PC the owner and lock it and give out keys.
Hehe! Best idea yet! ;)
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Osx and Dorg stated it well. Many of us have spent countless hours plotting, schemeing, saving our little pennies and almost been permed in the pursuit of having this temple. To give you guys some sort of indication it took us over a year of full dedication and once we got this achieved it was by far the greatest feat we have ever accomplished. From the moment it was erected we were negotiating ways to avoid metagaming it's existence and believe me when you play a character everyone loves to hate you get used to metagaming on a regular basis.
Originally we had it locked but as agreed by L and the team we leave it unlocked as it's a place of faith for all Corathites known and unknown as well as it's allies to use (points to Ionnarin). It was never meant to be a house for ourselves so the plan was leave it and forget about it.
Now in my travels I've seen all manner of metagaming it's existence. In all these cases though I have never been irritated or nasty as I can imagine it would be difficult for many players to withstrain themselves from using what they know OOC in the game. Secondly many new players have no idea about the history or unspoken rule about it's existence so we really can't blame them for pointing it out In Game. I will commend however, that in all circumstances where people have been reminded about not metagaming, its been dismissed with with a brief nod and 'she'll be right mate' attitude and this circumstance was no different.
As to anyone that knows about it from a reliable source In Game, firstly I commend your ability to gather this information as I've got no idea how you could. Maybe thats what makes it so intriguing. If these players ever wish to use this information and mount an attack or something we'd be more than happy to play this out. Never has it been written that we are invulnerable. We welcome any conflict so long as it was planned from information gathered in the game. This temple is not just for us, it's something that should benefit the entire server. It's somthing that should create brilliant new quests for both good and evil. If it should fall than it falls. Such is life. I am sure I can speak for the others when I state that we are not afraid of losing our characters, being permed or failing the Dark One himself. Even our High Priestess Chanda was lucky to survive a recent quest. Before it took place Aragon was quite happy to lose Chanda so long as it was done in the right manner, and thats a character thats been around for as long as I can remember. We're all the same. We lose one we make another.
Also I like Halfwits idea about traitor Corathites being hunted down and killed. Pseudo start running!
Anyway it's a shame most of you don't get a chance to have a look inside. It's really quite beautiful. The team couldn't have done a better job and we're very proud of it.
If you ever do get to have a look inside with your good characters, we hope it's in shackles being lead to the torture chambers or better yet the sacrificial alter.
Enjoy
Polak76
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//HAve to say I DID see the insides once, though IC I will not be claiming to know anything about it. Must say... CREEEEEPY!!!! AND HUGE!!!
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I think some of the people before may not have been metagaming so much as being ignorant of how hidden the temple was supposed to be. I know personally this is the first I heard about it being so secret and I had been inside and told people about it and RP'd knowing where it was. I didn't intend on metagaming. I just didn't know it was supposed to be so hidden and secret. It makes sense now that someone has explained. I do think it should be made permanent somehow to make sure it is well known to people in the future. :)
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This is not having a go at any one in particular so please no one take it personally...
I do agree that some mechanical way of knowing that the temple should be secret would help but as players I think we have to apply a bit of common sense too....
I mean....why would the Temple of Corath sit there totally in the open? How would a Toranite or any other no-coranthite for that matter be allowed to enter? All Temples have guards.....Just because you don't see them doesn't mean they aren't there.....Like the thousands of people who live in Hempstead.
These guys KNOW that they are outlawed and if the Temple wasn't secret then why haven't the Toranite church just gone and arrested the lot of them and razed it to the ground as is their legal right? If you can't answer that question IC then to me it's a good indication of something you need to clarify before RPing you know about it.
With the Temple of Corath, as with many things people need to stop and think as players...."Hang on a minute, what would the RP be for this" and if your not sure.....Ask!
Just because the mechanic's allows it....doesn't mean it is so and taking the time to ask a DM or another community member before RPing it as working isn't that outrageous a thing to do.
L has stated in another thread that "This world is about RP and our decisions when doing things should focus on the RP side of things"
So while I know it can be hard and confusing when mechanics allows something that RP wise it shouldn't let's try and focus on the RP :)
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I think the best solution would be to move the temple entrance away from where it is and hide it somewhere else. Somewhere far away from that easy-to-spot place. No matter how many people agree on the terms of it here, there's the other half of the server that will say.. "We have a forum? Since when?!" :)
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I think the best solution would be to move the temple entrance away from where it is and hide it somewhere else. Somewhere far away from that easy-to-spot place. No matter how many people agree on the terms of it here, there's the other half of the server that will say.. "We have a forum? Since when?!" :)
New Players, though they do NEED to be on the forum in order to sumbit a PC, may never see this thread once it disappears from the main page's "Recent Post/Thread" List. So if its not difficult, I know of an excellent place to put the temple thats NOT far from the current place, and also still within the context of being where it's supposed to be . (removed location of Temple, Tanman)
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Guys,
There is an opportunity for some really good roleplay here. There are some really good idea's in this thread. Jrizz is right on the money
1) The owner of the house should be changed to "you never found this door".
2) The door should be locked.
3) The keys should be handed out in game. After all what is the point of a secret society if you can't in game recruit and add new characters. This adds a real element of value to the game. After all not every new Evil character will know about it. They should have learn and gain access to it in game. Remember anyone with a key, not just the owner, can make a copy of the key.
4) If possible the entrance to the 'house' should be moved to a different location at next update. This will give a chance for both 'good and evil' characters to start fresh.
Cheers,
Stragen
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Guys,
There is an opportunity for some really good roleplay here. There are some really good idea's in this thread. Jrizz is right on the money
1) The owner of the house should be changed to "you never found this door".
2) The door should be locked.
3) The keys should be handed out in game. After all what is the point of a secret society if you can't in game recruit and add new characters. This adds a real element of value to the game. After all not every new Evil character will know about it. They should have learn and gain access to it in game. Remember anyone with a key, not just the owner, can make a copy of the key.
4) If possible the entrance to the 'house' should be moved to a different location at next update. This will give a chance for both 'good and evil' characters to start fresh.
Cheers,
Stragen
Some answers to your comments:
1. Sounds like decent idea.
2. Had this discussion and it's not gonna happen. Was locked once with a few of us having the keys. This was dismissed and now it's open for all. I actually agree with having it open.
3. as above
4. I didn't think there were going to be any further updates. Secondly it wasn't our prefered choice in the mountains yet we're still happy with it.
Anyway I'd like to add that this is starting to turn something that is relatively simple into something overly complicated. All it takes is some maturity and common sense. If someone makes an error all it takes is for someone to correct it OOC. I think we'd be wasting time trying to change what we've got. I can count on one hand how many times people have made critical errors OOC with the temple over it's entire existence. Each time it was rectified appropriately.
Also I actually like when people make a blunder, be it new characters or characters that stumble and wander inside. They get to see how intriguing and mysterious it is before they're told to stay away from it OOC. Then the lure to explore this secretive world influences them into making a Corathite. We could always do with a few more.
Anyway thats my sales pitch.
Cheers,
Polak76
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Anyway I'd like to add that this is starting to turn something that is relatively simple into something overly complicated. All it takes is some maturity and common sense.
Oi! Start bandying ideas like this around and you'll make 90% of the forum redundant!
:)
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I guarantee if we move it, someone would find it again and we do this all over again. We're definitely not going to go down that path.
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I guess its my turn to weigh in a bit on this issue and provide a bit more background since I am one of the principle contributors to the creation of this thread.
The temple of Corath on Mistone is not easily arrived at, due to mechanics and the fact that many areas on a server equates to serious lag; it was decided by myself and the GMs to place the temple where it is now. It is out of the way and unless you are looking for it your not normally gonna stumble upon it. This being said, I disagree with moving the temple to another location, #1 - as soon as it is moved there will be people who disregard RP and will go hunting for it, #2 - To move this temple location will take too much precious time away from the Builder staff that already is back logged with updates and changes they are bringing forth for our enjoyment, #3 - Why should the Corathites be punished so to speak by having to move thier temple because others are not RPing their characters?
Personally I can only think of two people that are non-corathites that have ever been taken or lead by mistake to the temple. Both were part of an abduction attempt where one person was "invited" to the temple and the other followed invisible.
No Corathite will ever take you to the temple if you are not a Corathite - plain and simple. Additionally, initiates are not taken to the temple until after they have proven their worth in the eyes of Corath and Chanda. So don't think you are going to pull a fast one on us ;) Also, as stated above this temple while it appears to not be guarded it does in fact have guards. Due to an agreement that I have with Leanthar, those guards are not inplace on the server to lower lag and to prevent other problems that could arise by them being their .. namely faction issues.
CpWindancer, Polak76, and myself spent countless hours and over 2 million in gold to have this temple built, it took us over a year of saving to gain this amount of gold. To even be allowed to have this temple I had to agree to certain provisions and terms, for example:
1 - The door will not be locked. It is not a player house, but due to the game mechanics someone had to purchase the deed. Thus, the deed belongs to Chanda.
In response to the Pyrotechron above, if your character were to find out the location of the temple then after a brief consultation with Chanda you may be allowed to use the font for potion making. Here again, allies would be welcomed to the temple under normal circumstances, but due to the secrecy of the location and the implications of the temple being discovered I doubt it, use Arnax.
I appreciate the efforts of all those who have RP'd their characters IC and continue to do so. It is what makes this game enjoyable. If you think your character may know of the location of the temple then ask dorg or myself we can help provide you with guidance. I speak for the whole Corathite community (except you psuedo .. we are still coming for you, oh and you too Mich, Clarrissa, and crew (not you Steel)), oh and Plen and the rest of you goody-goodies ..... sorry I digress) when I say that we have enjoyed every moment of being evil-minded and enjoy the RP you goodies bring for us.
And you who took my key ... and the other person who took my finger ... just wait until I get my other 4 fingers on you. ;)
Bottomline - Please RP, don't ruin what CPWindancer, Polak76 and several others spent a very longtime creating.
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Made sticky and bumped for visibility.
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Bumping again for visibility
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You mean I can't sell maps to it, anymore? *sighs*