The Gods Fashion Police

[Dorganath]

Clerics and paladins have to be able to justify non-standard armor and weapon choices in their character bios at submission time.  Colors are a little more subjective, but the preferences of the deity should be respected in terms of colors. Let's use common sense and good judgement here.

Champions should be in lock-step with deity preferences. This actually came up very recently, and the RP reason for deviating from the prefered weapon for a paladin was not sufficient for the same deviation for a Champion.

[AeonBlues]

I think saying a cleric wears preferred colors for reason of dogma is a bit dry.

I highly suspect that many clerics on Layonara are played by people that have very little in the way of RL spiritual believes or ummm, not a spiritual belief that is consistent to a poly-theological culture.

Thus I feel that clerics on Layonara are often missing the single minded and obsessive devotion to their deities.  Essentially a cleric has completely submitted their life and soul to the devotion of a diety, and to further that deities will on the world.  That being said, any cleric should want to wear the colors of their deity because they love their deity and their deities colors.  If you grew up raised by a priest of Aeridin, and you have come to resent the color because your character has been overwhelmed by it all his life, then you darn sure are not going to let any of the other priests know you feel that way, because that might make them think you are less devote, and be prone to ridicule you in public, or talk bad about you behind your back.  It may not sound mature or fair, but priests are kind of stupid like that.

Aeon Blues

[DMOE]

I totally agree with you there AeonBlues.....

I do try to play my cleric with the devotion you speak of and the attitude you speak of.

I also agree that this level of devotion is miss in general.

Remember people...your god gifts you with your abilities.....if you are not completely devoted to them.....Why would they?  They can tell you know.

[Nibor21]

The clergy of Aeridin, or any deity for that matter, does not possess a letter from Aeridin saying "I'd really like it if you all would wear white. Thanks, A"

While the cleric is unlikely to have a note from Aeridin regarding colour (but he may have on excusing him games lessons) you also have to realise not merely that a cleric follows his deity but he also follows the rules of his church.

We know the deities of Layo are really pretty poor with letting their worshippers know what's going. Toran for example has never manifested himself in my lounge asked for a cup of coffee and explained how he would like me to dress so I don't clash with the wallpaper in his lounge.

He does however have a church. And churches are pretty good at making rules. They are also good at making sure those who have 'heard the call' obey those rules. As a cleric you are part of the set hierarchy of your church and are expected to abide by its rules.

Nowhere in the bible does it say, "You shalt wear cardboard or plastic dog-collars even though may make you look like thou hast hamster cheeks and itch mightily". Priests wear them because they are part of the church ordained uniform.

And if you think well hell to the church, I don't need them, well bad news. Throughout history various churches have come down hard on break away sects. Never heard of the tiger-strip wearing Catholics? That's because of the Inquisition.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

That doesn't work so well when you look at the churches, of, say, Shadon or Aeridin, but...

The dogmatic issues I discussed above (for Aeridin) hold true, and one could come up with equally applicable reasonings behind the colours of all the rest.

Heck, my character isn't even an official member of the admittedly very loose church of Aeridin, and he holds to the dogma better than a good half of the Aeridinites I've seen in-game. *Chuckles.* But then, there's the difference between career priests and career adventurers.

[hawklen]

hawk wears gaudy purple armor adorned with flashy gems. does that count?

[Acacea]

I'm with Stephen in that it's not about rules of the church. The pantheon is more of a chaotic bent then a lawful one at the moment and some clerics are not even formally trained at a temple to be given such unnecessary paperwork. How many of these more chaos oriented followers would stick around in a temple that put a lock on their wardrobe?

I'm not disagreeing about clerics and colors, just my two cents that "temple rules" aren't a good reason, hehe. The means of identifying oneself as a cleric of x, and out of devotion to the deity itself (not necessarily the paperwork involved with it) seems more likely.

[EdTheKet]

While the cleric is unlikely to have a note from Aeridin regarding colour (but he may have on excusing him games lessons) you also have to realise not merely that a cleric follows his deity but he also follows the rules of his church.

We know the deities of Layo are really pretty poor with letting their worshippers know what's going. Toran for example has never manifested himself in my lounge asked for a cup of coffee and explained how he would like me to dress so I don't clash with the wallpaper in his lounge.

He does however have a church. And churches are pretty good at making rules. They are also good at making sure those who have 'heard the call' obey those rules. As a cleric you are part of the set hierarchy of your church and are expected to abide by its rules.

Nowhere in the bible does it say, "You shalt wear cardboard or plastic dog-collars even though may make you look like thou hast hamster cheeks and itch mightily". Priests wear them because they are part of the church ordained uniform.

Exactly.

And in addition, most clerics would want people to be able to identify them at a glance (of course, some exceptions, like for example corathites). It's a way of identifying yourself without having to say anything first.

So to stick with the example: Aeridinites are Healers, people know "people fully dressed in white are probably Aeridinites and I can get my injuries/disease healed".

[Jearick Hgar]

yanno, i saw some examples of real life religion, and in general, real life preists wear what ever they like when they aren't at church. It was the same thing back in the time that Layo is set at too, except for some fanatics.

I don't think a cleric/priest should be forced to wear/weild anything outside of the church. Maybe they jsut can't get a good grip with a hammer, or they don't like using blades, it feels too much like a murder weapona dn they'd rather not look at their work that way. But i would say completely in the church or during a clerical durty, that they would most deffinatly use the weapon and the colors that the dogma interprets as their diety's favorites.

As for colors, i really don't believe in wearing one color at all time. The only reason Tath does it is cuz he's a tribal man and is used to only having one set of clothing. Maybe the majority of the time they would wear that color, but hoenstly they would get tired of wearing the same thing every day, and some days wear blue cuz it was their favorite color growing up.


I think what people are forgeting is that Clerics aren't always super devoted. That's why we have level one clerics and level 20 clerics. I know if i had a level 20 cleric, he'dw ear what he liked and used what he liked still being a new anitiate of the faith (he has to be otherwise he'd be mroe than jsut a level 1 cleric) I also wanna point out that everyday is differnt, and that people get urges, no matter who they are, to try something differe. Whether it's a new hair style, a different color shirt, maybe a different array of spells, or event ry to say a word different. it's in the nature.

While ir espect that this is a fanstasy video game, the server prides itself on realistic rp, and anyone wearing and using one type of anything just cuz their dogma likes it doesn't soudn realistic at all to me, in fact i don't know anyone or ever heard of anyone in real life doing such a thing.

[DMOE]

This isn't RL...this is fantasy...and if the god providing your powers, who you should be super devoted to as they grant you those powers has a favored weapon and colour I fail to see why a cleric wouldn't want to wear those colours or use that weapon.

As Dorganath has stated...clerics wishing to deviate from the standard weapons and armour have to justify it in their bio.

Let's remember people....your god can remove your powers if they are not happy with you.

[Tanman]

I would agree with the clothes part of what you say. Outside of church would be fine. But I am not sure if this would apply to the  choice of weapons that they weild in some circumstances.

Take for example a cleric of Aeridin. In LORE and the handbook, it says that Aeridinite clerics shun the  use of bladed weapons/piercing weapons such as swords and spears...so why would they want to use it outside the church when it affects their core belief?

I don't think a cleric/priest should be forced to wear/weild anything outside of the church. Maybe they jsut can't get a good grip with a hammer, or they don't like using blades, it feels too much like a murder weapona dn they'd rather not look at their work that way. But i would say completely in the church or during a clerical durty, that they would most deffinatly use the weapon and the colors that the dogma interprets as their diety's favorites.
 

[Jearick Hgar]

I would agree with the clothes part of what you say. Outside of church would be fine. But I am not sure if this would apply to the  choice of weapons that they weild in some circumstances.

Take for example a cleric of Aeridin. In LORE and the handbook, it says that Aeridinite clerics shun the  use of bladed weapons/piercing weapons such as swords and spears...so why would they want to use it outside the church when it affects their core belief?

well if their dogma specifically shuns the weapon then ya of course, it's part of their dogma to shun it. it's like shunnign necromancy and thenr aising skeletons.

but if the weapon isn't shuned, then i don't see wy they couldn't use it just cuz it isn't "in style" with their fellow clerics. Personally, i don't see preference of weapon as a way to scale one's faith. acts not appearance should determine strength of faith. not all people can even use every weapon. Dorand is the god of crafting, and his favor wep is the axe or hammer. That might make sence for armor smithers, but what about brewers? ring crafters? glass molders? nothing says they have to be strong, or even able to use a hammer. A monk/cleric of Dorand wouldn't have the proficiencies.

by prefered, i think it should mean exactly that prefered, or favored. not looked down apon, or needs special explaination for or any of that. jsut means they don't practice that. not every christian practices every christian practice, not every budhists practices every buddhist practice, not ever jewish man practices every jewish practice. it's all personal beliefs, and none of it determines who has more faith than the other, it jsut means they do this and others do that.

[magnusarin]

Okay, I know I'm new here but I've got some thoughts on the whole thing.

I just made a second character, a paladin of Rofirein. I stated in my bio that he uses a bastard sword and wears full plate. Well, okay, that's all well and good. I take my feat to weild a bastard sword, which I'm more than happy to do, and I dish out the chunk of change for the weapon, which is significant at first level. Now I go over to the armorer, oh, guess what, copper full plate is almost 2000 trues. Guess which first level character doesn't have that much? Yes, thats' me. So I buy a tower shield and the only armor I can afford, studded leather.

Should I go around with a sword, shield and nothing but a robe until I save enough to wear full plate? Because I tell you I wouldn't survive long enough to do so unless it was gifted to me or some high level characters took me around with them and just told me to stand in the back. I could also see a cleric of the same god not wanting to use a bastard sword because of the feat requirement. Granted, come up with an in game reason to mask your own player reasons for doing so.

As far as colors, I have been a catholic my entire life and I hold a degree in history with a roman and medieval concentration. Throughout the history of catholicism there have been different camps as to the interpretations of church dogma, even though the faith benefits from one central figure who can decide if he wishes to(something Layonara lacks) the pope doesn't always make such rulings because he understands the split within the church. You also have to look at the different sects within the religion. Putting Real Life in DnD terms a friar or a monk in the catholic tradition falls under the cleric PC class or the priest NPC one. Well, of the hundreds of sanctioned monastic orders in catholic history, all have had there own dress codes and preferences while worshipping the same god.

Looking at the current incarnation of the church, there is a dress code. Certain holidays and feast seasons require certain colors. When not in these seasons priests are still recommended to wear certain colors at certain times of year. Now, if you've ever regularly attended a catholic church you'll find that the local priest has a favorite set of robes he normally wears, recommendation be damned. Whether this is due to lack of funds for more robes or an attatchment to a certain set, you'll find few priests that follow the dress code to a T. If you want to say they're less spiritual for this I want you to go talk to a priest who has served for 30 years through chastity, poverty and many other sacrafices. Before you say that it's easier to do what you want when you don't have powers granted to you by your diety I'd remind you that a priest truly believes he turns bread and wine into the body and blood of their god and that they serve as vessels of God's forgiveness.

My two cents.

[darkstorme]

Yes, but by the same token, there's a difference between "believes he turns bread and wine into body and blood" and "watches as the wrath of his god kills his attackers before his eyes", or "watches as wounds close instantly under the healing balm of his god-given powers".

There is a difference between faith in the Unseen, and faith in the Obviously Present.

In addition, in our society, there's somewhat less competition between churches for followers - if you're in a society where the number of followers your church has increases the power of your God... well, you're likely going to advertise as much as you possibly can.

If you can't afford the regalia... that's forgiven (at least by the good gods. ), but if you choose not to tow the line?  You're likely to be confronted with a rather angry orthodox... Rofireinite.

[Acacea]

I wish real life religions would not be brought up as comparison so often, because they are very different for the reasons darkstorme pointed out. The clerics in Layonara have real, difficult-to-deny deities with presences in the world, that actually grant them divine abilities; they are literally conduits of the gods. No matter how faithful one is to a RL religion, it does not compare, because this is fantasy.

Identification doesn't matter too much in life, either, no matter how devout one is. There are standard things for when they need to be identified as priests of their faith, yes, but for the most part who cares, right? In Layonara clerics are always working for the church when they're out and about, as they're traveling in service to their deities and pursuing their faith.

No one is demanding that everyone be able to afford equipment right away, how would we even manage that? Ideally someone trained in the temple would already HAVE the beginning equipment, but for balancing purposes that is unlikely to happen.

There are several characters that are not strictly in line with dogma requirements for equipment, because it was written out in submission. Colors and such are no different, that's all that was really defined here. "One would need a really good reason."

Edit - I think I just repeated everything darkstorme said, except less efficiently.

[Weeblie]

I think some people are interpreting the word "favoured" as "must" which is not correct. Other people are interpreting the same word as "if one feels for it" which is not accurate either in this situation.

Not all clerics of Aeridin wear white robes nor does all clerics of Aeridin wield quarterstaffs.

What is required, though, is that one states it in one's submission. It's not difficult to get approved for an alternative weapon/armor/color, surely not to the same level as language ears, but just as Acacea said (wrote rather!) there should be a reason for it, which is what's being asked for, really!

It is not to justify why your character is choosing as he chooses, but rather to justify why your characters is not choosing what's perceived as normal. A small difference, but a significant one...

[lonnarin]

Keep in mind that while you may be able to dress down while adventuring, the churches will often be much more strict when you're attending/performing actual temple services.  Joe the Priest might be able to kick back and look good in whatever he wants Monday-Saturday, but he's likely to be excommunicated if he shows up to church Sunday morning, leading the Nicene Creed in a Hooters Tshirt and speedos.  It's also a bad idea for him to represent the Catholic Church dressed down when asked to perform public events, like meeting the President or visiting an international mission and giving a speech on behalf of the church.  It's mostly a matter of how public and official the business is that warrants whether or not a priest is in uniform.  It's not so much of a "what does my God want" question, but a "will I be politely asked to leave if I show up to church wearing this" one.  The obvious pitfall of dressing down as a priest is that other people of your faith will doubt that you're even a priest, or worse, they might call you a heretic and sling stones at you for blasphemy.

[Talan Va'lash]

On that note, white is a very inconvenient colour, for an adventurer. After a few hours, that pristine robe would be painted red.

In PnP clerics have a spell that would clean it.

Or was that to fix it if it ripped... hrmm, I think they had both.

You're likely to be confronted with a rather angry orthodox... Rofireinite.

Thats me.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

In PnP clerics have a spell that would clean it.

Or was that to fix it if it ripped... hrmm, I think they had both.

Actually, just to fix it, but I would think that if they soaked it, hit it with a Purify Water, then dried it out, it'd be good as new.

Prestidigitation :: d20srd.org

A wizard spell that allows you to clean or soil materials... Sorry, not a cleric one.

Mending :: d20srd.org

The cleric/wizard/everyone else spell that lets you, well, mend things.

Though, honestly, I would allow a cleric to use the cleaning aspect of Prestidigitation if they had prepared a Mending and used that. Rather than fix, they could clean. Seems reasonable, and not out of line with clerical abilities.

[lonnarin]

I think the Aeridenites wear white robes because they're naive about adventuring.  It's their idealistic task to try and parley peace with every vile beast they meet, save for undead, since ALL life, even monster lie is sacred.  The concept of being drenched in blood doesn't really occur to them; if they expected an adventure to be such a bloodbath, they would likely be unwilling to join the group.  On the plus side, an unarmored man with a staff isn't likely to be outright feared by an opposing army, and they would probably be allowed to enter an enemy camp peacefully under guard to discuss ways to end the standoff without bloodshed.  So aye, they would have to clean and mend their robes a lot being foolish enough to wade into war with them, but it's not like they can't just do that the mundane way with a tub of soapy water, clothesline, needle and thread.  As they usually don't spend day after day training to be battle wary, they should have plenty of time to master such menial tasks.

Playing such a cleric should be almost impossible to level unless you kept taking him out on quests, in which case he should always be begging the group to find a peaceful solution to everything.  It's tough going on a NWN server when hacknslash is a necessary evil to advance in level, but it can be done and the GM Quest xp awards are pretty hefty.  A smart Aeridenite would buddy up with a mage who can cast invisibility to sit back and keep healing folk in safety.  That method beats the Trickery Domain cleric build hands down, as Healing, Good and Sun domains are ultimately devastating to undead and demons who the aeridenites would have no problem smiting on sight.

Note: It would be pretty funny RPing an Aeridenite washing his robes after battle too.  Weeping for the fallen, begging forgiveness from his god for his part in it, and obsessedly scrubbing out the spots & screaming at them like in Macbeth.