The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => Roleplaying => Topic started by: Pseudonym on September 17, 2009, 06:25:44 am
-
Okay, maybe hate is too strong a word. The word 'hate' implies a depth of feeling I normally reserve for those things that peeve me in real life, not my chosen leisure activity.
Let's instead call these two pet niggles. Yeah, that sounds better. Less vitriolic by far. Now that I actually sit down to write about it, if it were not for the fact that Mrs Pseudo was watching Glee on TV and there is not much else for me to do, I probably wouldn't even bother. That said,
1.
Please no forced emotes/feelings in character descriptions! Forced emotes have been addressed ad nauseum elsewhere for general roleplay but not (to my knowledge) for character descriptions, I am talking about the info we can read if we right-click (option-click) on your character.
You don't make me feel uncomfortable!
I don't think your gaze pierces me to the very depths of my soul!
Etc, etc.
In short, you don't make me feel anyhting, I decide what my character feels. How 'bout you just provide an objective narrative that describes what I am seeing and I'll fill in the subjective stuff?!?
2.
Helmets
Cowls
Hoods
Veils
Scarves
Niqaabs
Other
So you've chosen to take up the roleplay challenge of a dark elven (half-orc, tiefling, etc) character. Good for you. A really interesting dark history, century upon century of brutality, cruelty, conniving and treachery. All interesting stuff. Hey, lets not forget those pretty nifty mechanical benefits but, of course, you have the compromise of being hated and mistrusted across the world to balance those.
What's your point, you ask?
Be realistic with what another PC would be able to see of you under your all-concealing helmet, hood, veil, etc!! If you can see with enough clarity to fight/spot/listen/bluff/concentrate/search/etc without penalty from the depths of your face covering - there is a fair chance I can see enough of your face to determine skin colour, glowing red eyes, etc!
I will accept my character cannot see ANYTHING of your face (hands/neck/etc) if and when I can see your roleplay reflect that the facial swaddling is so extremely thorough that you are stumbling about the place, three-quarters deaf and blind.
You're playing a dark-elf. Accept the roleplay difficulties that come along with the mechanical benefits. A face/race obscuring hood panacea seems, to me at least, a bit of a copout.
PS. This is not directed at anyone in particular. :)
Glee is over, i'm off!
-
Ohh...I had a pet niggle once. I named it Fred. Fun things to have as pets, but they're very picky eaters. It ended up rather lonely though, being at home by itself during the day, as niggles are really rather social things. So I ended up giving it away to a man who breeds niggles. I had never seen the thing so happy in my life...
-
Hehehe! Dark Elves should wear make up to mask the dark skin tone on their faces! Oh and contact lenses too! I had to swallow my pride at the idea of making Ni'haer wear powder that covered his skin. It gets really tedious playing a Dark Elf with so many disguises but it's worth it, what with all the crazy aliases you can think of! Oh and the best part about it is that they won't even know you're a Dark Elf, but they'll get their suspicions. But of course, certain rules apply and certain situations must also be taken into account. Dark Elves can't always hide and run forever. :)
One pet niggle of mine is when other monstrous races are played and aren't treated like the monsters they are, or at least questioned and given suspicious looks. Hehe don't mind me, I just observed all of this back then as Ni'haer progressed. I used to remember instances wherein Ni'haer used to run around with Goblins, Half-Ogres, Tieflings, and Half-Orcs and he would be given the spotlight. Are they not as monstrous as Dark Elves? Sure, Dark Elves are evil to the core but doesn't that lumbering Half-Ogre look as dangerous as he does? Maybe it's because my character is actually Lawful Evil and the Ogre is just Chaotic Neutral. Is it because Ni'haer has shoulder spikes, doesn't that Half-Orc have long and sharp fangs or teeth? How about that Elf that's as mysterious as he is (but somehow lacks his cheeky personality) and wears clothing from head to toe, why isn't that person given the hot seat? Certain circumstances will apply when your character is dealing with a monstrous race, and it all depends on how your character perceives such creatures. Hehe don't mind me! Playing and dealing with Dark Elves is mind-raking! Alright I'm done. :)
EDIT: Mind-raking as it is, it's really fun to take the risks and go through the road less traveled. So make your evil character today! Hehehe Just kidding! Oh and kudos to all the players that interact with monstrous races accordingly! :)
EDIT: Oh and no, I'm not judging how people play their characters, it's just a means to make things far more realistic. :)
EDIT: Gosh I make a lot of edits.
-
Contact lenses?! Are you crazy? :P
-
That's actually a good question! Although I won't be able to give you an answer just yet! :)
-
Contact lenses are a silly idea for Layo... That's a very modern invention, unless you like have two small disks of glass in your eyes...
Just wait till you get punched in the face... :P "AH! MY EYES!"
-
Hehe maybe he can look like "Googles"! :P Hehe yeah the one flaw in Ni'haer's disguise! The eyes! :P
-
It's as simple as this - anyone wearing a mask, helmet, cowl, hood, makeup, dodgy moustache, nice sun tan, cardboard cut out, box, or always has their back turned - well they're Dark Elf! .......... simples!
oh and Psued...get Mrs Psued to keep you busier ....please!
-
"Goggles" At least has the sense to wear colored glass over her eyes :P
-
What I love is how Half-Giants and Half-Orcs are said to pass for ugly humans, and they are banned from Hempstead. Does that not mean that large ugly humans are in the same boat? I half expect a human barbarian with 8 charisma who stands at 6'6" or taller to be banned from the city entrance, and smacked with the ugly stick for his troubles.
As for disguises, in a world of magic and sorcery where fireballs spring from the fingertips and incredible energies animate the dead to walk again, I find the lack of cosmetics ludicrous at best. If the dark elves were half as insidious or intelligent as everybody makes them out to be, wouldn't they have devised alchemical eyedrops of Sinatra blue eyes and salves of pasty white-boy complexion by now? It's not like they have fangs, horns sticking out of their heads, stand 8 feet tall or breathe brimstone after all. They are elves, elves who are black, with red eyes. Robert Downy Jr. didn't even need magic to convincingly pass as a black man in Tropic Thunder, so why couldn't a dark elf pass for a surface elf WITH the use of magic? I'll tell you why, metagaming. People who KNOW they're a dark elf from reading the bio or meeting the character before or seeing the character portrait will utterly refuse to believe any sort of disguise, short of a GM standing right there and sending them a tell to do so. And even then, you will get the all-knowing emote "Eyes the dark elf skeptically* when there is no physical evidence of dark elfness present. That or when they appear skeptical of every druid in kitty cat form, when surrounded by identical Hlint kitty cats that they ignore completely. One of my pet peeves.
And I know there aren't any contact lenses, but if the gnomes can invent a pair of magical spectacles which can detect the invisible, don't you think somebody would have dabbled in SUNGLASSES by now? Or at least Rose-Tinted John Lennon glasses.
-
I don't think your gaze pierces me to the very depths of my soul!
I share this one, particularly the part in the quote. I haven't read any descriptions in a while, but there was a time way back when it seemed like every third character had the soul-piercing gaze written in there.
Be realistic with what another PC would be able to see of you under your all-concealing helmet, hood, veil, etc!!
A face/race obscuring hood panacea seems, to me at least, a bit of a copout.
cosmetics
Without the actual item available in-game, emoting cosmetics seems as much a cop-out as the fully-covering mask to me, except without all the drawbacks of vision problems and such. I'm not saying it isn't a reasonable way to disguise oneself or that it wouldn't have been invented, only that there's no real cost or effort involved for the PC. It's just a way for a dark elf's (or other monstrous race character's) player to dump off the (minimal) negatives of that race for a while.
People who KNOW they're a dark elf from reading the bio or meeting the character before or seeing the character portrait will utterly refuse to believe any sort of disguise, short of a GM standing right there and sending them a tell to do so. And even then, you will get the all-knowing emote "Eyes the dark elf skeptically* when there is no physical evidence of dark elfness present.
This won't stop until disguises and their detection are built into the game engine. My hate (it's a little more than a niggle, but probably not hate-hate) expands all the way out as "I hate monstrous races as player characters because of the mess they cause, one way or another, in our current game engine."
-
Hehe... Emwonk's always worn mirrored goggles since his initial inception as an idea in my head to his preset day incarnation in-game. He can see out just fine, but folks can't see in, and that makes it fun to occasionally emote giving folks a glimpse of his bright, electric blue eyes every once in a while when he takes the goggles off for a second or two to clean them or whatnot.
Err... getting off-topic a bit, I guess, but there's my two cents on the bit about eye-wear.
Anyhow, not everyone emotes the "all-knowing - "Eyes the darkelf suspiciously" emote." Some of us actually do try to emote that they don't know for sure who that covered up/disguised stranger really is, at least until they've become rather familiar with said character and somehow said character's true identity becomes revealed to them.
That said, some characters who have a good reason to be paranoid about darkelves have a predisposition to also be very suspicious of anyone who does hide their face/skin/eyes regardless of whether that character actually is a darkelf or other monstruous race, or halfbreed.
-
What I love is how Half-Giants and Half-Orcs are said to pass for ugly humans, and they are banned from Hempstead. Does that not mean that large ugly humans are in the same boat? I half expect a human barbarian with 8 charisma who stands at 6'6" or taller to be banned from the city entrance, and smacked with the ugly stick for his troubles.
They probably would be, but the guard's AI doesn't allow for that, and the player probably walks their character into Hempstead because they're not one of the banned races.
As for disguises, in a world of magic and sorcery where fireballs spring from the fingertips and incredible energies animate the dead to walk again, I find the lack of cosmetics ludicrous at best.
I guess that is subject to where you (personally) pitch the technology level of the world. Originally described as a fantasy medieval setting, a lot of people take it to be historically medieval, and add magic to that.
Although a lot of other people also seem to move that to more the modern end of the historical time line, because that's what they're familiar with, and its far more comfortable (they like the idea of running water and taking baths and showers :)).
If the dark elves were half as insidious or intelligent as everybody makes them out to be, wouldn't they have devised alchemical eyedrops of Sinatra blue eyes and salves of pasty white-boy complexion by now?
Again, that depends on where the technology level is pitched, and whether alchemy is being fully equated with chemistry.
It's not like they have fangs, horns sticking out of their heads, stand 8 feet tall or breathe brimstone after all. They are elves, elves who are black, with red eyes. Robert Downy Jr. didn't even need magic to convincingly pass as a black man in Tropic Thunder, so why couldn't a dark elf pass for a surface elf WITH the use of magic?
*cough* Magic would be detectable. ;)
I'll tell you why, metagaming. People who KNOW they're a dark elf from reading the bio or meeting the character before or seeing the character portrait will utterly refuse to believe any sort of disguise, short of a GM standing right there and sending them a tell to do so. And even then, you will get the all-knowing emote "Eyes the dark elf skeptically* when there is no physical evidence of dark elfness present. That or when they appear skeptical of every druid in kitty cat form, when surrounded by identical Hlint kitty cats that they ignore completely. One of my pet peeves.
Mine too!
Part of the problem is no-one likes to be played for a fool, and another is the plausibility of mechanism used to disguise the character, viz, the viability of hoods, whether the character is saying perfect makeup where as the other person is saying not at that (un-mutually agreed) technology level, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Perhaps dark elves shouldn't be submitted publicly, nor have a dark elvish name, nor a dark elvish portrait, and if you were allowing perfect non-smearing water resistant makeup, nor dark elvish skin. There would be nothing to meta, their disguise perfect (they could even have a widget to set their skin black when they wanted to be natural).
The only problem then is, are they just a regular elf?
*shrugs*
Regards,
Script Wrecked.
-
The races banned from Hempstead were assumed to be treated as monstrous races to the rest of the world and treated with fear or disdain or hatred where applicable. The actual sign created was because it is a starting area and to enforce what was an attempt at representing a much more global distrust (with exceptions - which are exceptions and not the rule), which obviously didn't work.
I still strongly believe that banning half races was a mistake but it stands and backstory and responsibility for it has been already made retroactively... and having occurred in other areas beside the single city. Either way, they're all going to die anyway.
As far as the technology level goes, it is easy to say no to things because one is stuck on the RL dark ages as a setting, but if you take any historical setting and add magic into the mix, you have upped the technology level. You have to either scale back your era or accept that capabilities exceed your very limited perception of capabilities.
-
Hey, I've half expected from time to time if someone would try and kick Caighd out of Hempstead... I mean, given his size and skin color... he could BE a half dark elf/half ogre or giant.
-
What I love is how Half-Giants and Half-Orcs are said to pass for ugly humans, and they are banned from Hempstead. Does that not mean that large ugly humans are in the same boat?
I play a half-ogre. There is no way he could ever be mistaken for a human. Not even the ugliest human imaginable. From the lore, half-ogres are huge, hulking, and have gray skin. Just take a look at him.
As for disguises, in a world of magic and sorcery where fireballs spring from the fingertips and incredible energies animate the dead to walk again, I find the lack of cosmetics ludicrous at best. If the dark elves were half as insidious or intelligent as everybody makes them out to be, wouldn't they have devised alchemical eyedrops of Sinatra blue eyes and salves of pasty white-boy complexion by now?
While this is not impossible, and the loremaster has approved of at least one character who has done this (with a disguise so complete, it even extends to metagaming), let me respond by asking you this: how convincing do you find a "blackface comedian"?
And that is the exact analogy to make. Because it's not just the makeup, I'm talking about here. No normal dark elf would demean himself by actually trying to pass as a surface traitor. Ever. It would be something akin to a southern 1930s KKK klansman trying to pass himself off as black. They might do it as a joke - a mockery, like blackface, as vicious comedy, but not for real. So actual realistic makeup would not be be a technology any dark elf would learn, absent some other compelling reason to develop such a disguise.
And no matter what, the red glowy eyes, are kind-of a giveaway.
(W)hy couldn't a dark elf pass for a surface elf WITH the use of magic? I'll tell you why, metagaming. People who KNOW they're a dark elf from reading the bio or meeting the character before or seeing the character portrait will utterly refuse to believe any sort of disguise, short of a GM standing right there and sending them a tell to do so.
Magic is even worse as a disguise, since magicians are sensitive to it, and may very well be able to understand what is being done with a simple Spellcraft check.
In fact, to use the definition that the Avlis authors like to describe, I've seen much more "cheesing" than metagaming. ("Cheesing", by their definition, is exactly what the Original Post here is describing - putting the viewer's supposed reaction as a fundamental part of one's character description.) Almost no in-game dark elves have plausible disguises. There are a few I've seen, but they're rare.
And even then, you will get the all-knowing emote "Eyes the dark elf skeptically* when there is no physical evidence of dark elfness present.
Hmmm.... Let's use an analogy. *The bank teller eyes the man with the scarf tied around his face skeptically*
Or the crook who yelled "No you didn't recognize me" in court.
And I know there aren't any contact lenses, but if the gnomes can invent a pair of magical spectacles which can detect the invisible, don't you think somebody would have dabbled in SUNGLASSES by now? Or at least Rose-Tinted John Lennon glasses.
You have a point, at least as far as deep-gnomes are concerned. Those little gem polisher devotees of Beryl should all have dark glasses for the surface. And it doesn't seem quite reasonable that they'd all have to waste a feat getting them either. But then again, that might be better than draconian behavior restrictions that might be otherwise imposed on them by the world team to compensate for their advantages.
-
I hate these topics because they turn into He said she said things, but Imma drop in my two cents...
I can completely understand where everyone is coming from, but I think that one thing is made rather clear. Every character, Dark elf or otherwise, is unique... they may or may not represent their race. they may or may not share mainstream ideas. (On a side note, no one questions a hooded human corathite, Who are not supposed to show their faces period, from my understanding.) With that being said, I also know that There needs to be a well written biography that is APPROVED, but is still something to consider nonetheless.
Also, to Gunlyr, if it makes you feel better, My dark elves haven't really associated with any others for some time now, and if they have, it was for a small amount of time.... :p
As for the disguise part, Yeah, I get it... there is no active disguise system. But there is also a ton of cultures and customs that you, as a "resident of Layonara" are NOT aware of. I'm not saying go make stuff up, but I've read a few bios that have been flagged for ed and have been approved where a culture akin to that of RL cultures have been used. Some cultures may be known to refuse to show any skin (unlike the plethora of women that run about in-game in miniskirts and a bra). Quite simply, some might prefer to actually wear lotsa clothes. Maybe they are from a much hotter climate? I Know well the difference temperature makes, and going from one region where the average high in the afternoon is over 10 degrees different from that in a region that stays about 20 degrees Celsius. 10 degrees is a big friggin difference, especially when your used to the hotter weather... Walking around in a wool coat and wearing long johns under your jeans in the summer or wearing absolutely nothing but yer underpants and a undershirt in the winter (my comparison of Germany's winters to North Carolina's winters...)
and take this picture (http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2006/03/29/arts/29new.650.jpg)for example...
Yeah, they don't have their hoods up, but if they wanted, they could pass you and you'd never see their face. Yeah, they might not be good spotters and might fail a search check, but they haven't become invalids.
And just for good measure, I'd like to point out that there are "non-visible" NPCs and commoners. All of a sudden, I stick out so much more than any other vagrant on the roads of some ragamuffin wondering along, or even some spread out mercenaries or hunters? You know, if you think the PC is a dark elf, you could always just leave him/her alone or go your merry way. heck, run and cry for help maybe? I mean really, If Idoran even began to get an inkling of an idea that some one was a dark elf, he would leave, immediately, and beg glad he is alive, even if they are 4 levels lower than him. Because if that was some NPC dark elf, you might very well get blasted by a hell ball twenty times over just for greeting him and telling him what lovely white hair he/she has.
Much love. :D
~ Link092
EDIT: PS: Steve, your Half-Ogre isn't a Half-Orc, so that only covers half of that bit of Lonns point... >.>'
-
The gnomes inventing sunglasses comment immediately made me think of the whole of the [strike]Underdark[/strike] Deep running around like the more modern image of some vampires with the long coats, death pale skin and shades.
I don't know why, but it was really funny to me for some reason... Either you're a dark elf or you're a vampire and I don't break fast with either of them! *shakes fist*
-
Pet hate number one.
Intimidate checks with very little RP or sense behind them.
And on that note we have never settled what is the counter roll of intimidate check. A pure will check does not make much sense.
-
Intimidate has a pretty standard counter that is a modified level check + wis bonus + any saves against fear. Has that changed?
-
not really a pet peeve for me, but I'm always a tad worried about how I should deal with each individual, as they RP and make rolls (or don't) differently and such...
._.
-
Without the actual item available in-game, emoting cosmetics seems as much a cop-out as the fully-covering mask to me, except without all the drawbacks of vision problems and such. I'm not saying it isn't a reasonable way to disguise oneself or that it wouldn't have been invented, only that there's no real cost or effort involved for the PC. It's just a way for a dark elf's (or other monstrous race character's) player to dump off the (minimal) negatives of that race for a while.
I can't really agree on that one, mostly because of all the time we have been told that there is many things that are not In the game world due to process and servers, and database, but we had to assume they were there and rp accordingly. Example, the villagers and all. On so many quests also we have been asked to think outside the limitation of the game engine to get to our answers. So it seems only logical, that things that would obviously exist in game but is not for mechanical aspect, to be used in all kind of rp. Powder existed for a looong loong time, so has facial paint.
To remind every one of a disguise that is or not written in the bio card, most people have to rp it being there or give a tell to the people about it. It can become a pain in the long run. But that comes with making such char and wanting to pass incognito.
Perhaps dark elves shouldn't be submitted publicly, nor have a dark elvish name, nor a dark elvish portrait, and if you were allowing perfect non-smearing water resistant makeup, nor dark elvish skin. There would be nothing to meta, their disguise perfect (they could even have a widget to set their skin black when they wanted to be natural).
The only problem then is, are they just a regular elf?
*shrugs*
Regards,
Script Wrecked.
Heck you probably know better than me if this is doable in game, but if it can.. Man I would love that option to be available. Not because my Dark elf would use it.. or sometimes she would, she does hates her skin color, of course that comes with not being a psychopath. But also for all the other player here who play dark elves and try their best to rp their disguise but are unfortunately dumbfounded by people who just disregard their rp and do the so evil metagaming. Although I have to say for my own experience, I have not seen a lot of that with Tyillaan. But then again I emote a lot her ways of keeping her head low, concealing her face form the look of others. Brought a funny moment with Noka when he found out. But then again he had never gotten close enough to look up and see her face. I personally give a tell to people that are close enough to do so, of what they would see. Can't remember who it was, but one of those who I telled, gave me a tell back; " he just wasn't interested in the process of looking up to see someones face." made me laugh.
And that is the exact analogy to make. Because it's not just the makeup, I'm talking about here. No normal dark elf would demean himself by actually trying to pass as a surface traitor. Ever. It would be something akin to a southern 1930s KKK klansman trying to pass himself off as black. They might do it as a joke - a mockery, like blackface, as vicious comedy, but not for real. So actual realistic makeup would not be be a technology any dark elf would learn, absent some other compelling reason to develop such a disguise.
And no matter what, the red glowy eyes, are kind-of a giveaway.
Well, we have to remember that not all dark elf are those sent to kill someone or have a right of passage way. you have that 1 to 10%? who chose or were forced to leave the deep for various reason. I doubt i'm wrong thinking that az'attan's dark elf don't think of themselves as much better as any other races, since even their goddess gives redemption to all who wishes it. They are a minority, but it doesn't mean they aren't Dark elf. So maybe some of them would like to be able to hide that fact from others.. and maybe even from themselves out of disgust for their own kind.
-
On the subject of checks I have a few thoughts.
It doesn't make sense to me that there necessarily has to be one counter-check for another kind of check. People, like our characters, respond to events differently.
To use the intimidate check example:
If I throw an intimidate, a fighter/soldier type character might throw a discipline check. This is to RP his ability to control his fear response. After all, he has seen many scary things, one more cat with its hair standing on end might not seem too much of a threat against his experience and discipline.
Conversely, a mage/intellectual type character might throw a will or concentration check. He would be representative of those people who are so smart that they recognize attempts to intimidate as simple, brutish things. Actions which cannot match their own deep-cutting sarcasm.
And while it may not be a counter to an intimidate throw I could also see ways where some characters might defuse the situation. Say one character throws intimidate. The responding character might be intimidated, but in being afraid might try to abate the anger of the first character by throwing a persuade with a corresponding emote.
Of course I recognize the obvious problem people might have with this, that it will likely lead to characters trying to find ways to argue throwing their highly modified skills, but to be honest, I really don't see any problem with that. From a metagaming standpoint I like it because it makes players think deeply about how they can apply the skills their character has to manipulate their environment in different situations. From a RP standpoint I like it because if a character recognizes he has a skill for performance or persuasion or disabling traps, it makes sense that he would think and work within those skills.
Another situation: Common in places like Brenuth is the snowball fight where I often see people throwing reflex to dodge the snowball. But if you're a lumbering hulk of a character wouldn't you more likely get a shoulder up to block it or try to hit it away with your hand (if you even react fast enough to do anything)?
______________
Other questions about throwing rolls:
Can an animal empathy check be used on players to read body language and other silent modes of communication? Of course it can't read thoughts, but it seems that if you can read the behavior patterns of animals then that should apply to humanoid animals as well. It is, after all, a wisdom based skill, the attribute that I think of being associated with knowing life and a general sense of how people think, feel, and act. (Not to be confused with intelligence which would make one know how people think, feel, and act from the pages of a psychology textbook.)
_______
I really think that the best system for rolls and counter-rolls would be decided on a case by case basis where the person playing the character has a choice for deciding how the character should best react.
Rolls and counter-rolls are something that do need that RP basis, and before one rolls against something they might also want to ask themselves, "Is this something my character could make an attempt to stand up to?" For example a shy or skiddish character might not even want to consider going up against an intimidate or persuade roll, as they do not have the heart to argue with the actant.
Another point, as intimidate, persuade, and a couple other skills have no benefit except for RP I would say they should be afforded some amount of leeway. There should be some reward to having a persuasive character who can't take one of the more practical skills (like Lore) because of it.
My final argument is this: Having one counter-roll set up against a roll encourages metagaming. This is because it addresses things from a mechanical standpoint and not an RP standpoint. If I am too think about a character as if it were an individual, then I must accept that different characters will react to the same situation differently. If each character has to react with the same counter-roll in mind, then that limits that individual response. Also, it makes it possible for players to throw skills they know they've trained against players who might not have high scores in the counter-skill.
Phew, that's long, so I hope I made some good points. ^^;
-
The reason it is a modified level check is to take into account actual experience, not just training. The wisdom and save modifiers vs fear add for the actual mind and fear part. It's not that I don't believe in creative countering - bluff in particular I think really shafts those high-wis characters when DMs require another bluff to counter, but will save starts hurting the bluffer and so on... Between PCs as long as everyone is happy, it's all good, right?
Part of intimidation, though, is not necessarily just scaring someone and making them show it, but to coerce them into doing something they would not otherwise do. I'd think discipline, as in the example, would be a good show of how someone would try to act once already affected by someone's intimidation - trucking on despite it, like someone who believes a lie but still can't for other reasons do as you wish them to do. To actually avoid being affected in the first place, the other is meant to be taken into account, and isn't supposed to define reactions or responses - but rather how easily cowed that person is. What they choose to do with it, just like anything else, is dependent on them. *Shrugs* Intimidation in particular I kind of like as standard because you can't just pick people who haven't "trained" in a counter, nor can a level 14 barbarian try to intimidate the pants off of multiple war vets just because they have no ranks in social skills.
Likewise someone can't just decide they're not intimidated because they have a high persuade and can persuade him to not be so scary. I don't mind being gracious with DCs and checks at all, and often choose to take a fall on them because I think it would be more fun and may very well be appropriate for my character at that time. Likewise I try not to force reactions because of having high skills, so I'm not sure anyone can think of the last time she rolled a persuade against a PC... she, depending on the moment, often auto-succeed a DC 70 check, and others 60 is not breaking a sweat - but why? It's not like you REALLY try that hard with every "please give me that piece of pie, it would really make me happy," just like are you really using all +50 of your intimidate when you pull a scary face at someone? Think carefully - is that as scary as you get? Your greatest effort? Then maybe just let it ride and let people react how they choose for the most part. That often leads to less ignoring of those numbers when you really mean them.
Hope that makes any sense at all!
((Edit - mega hijacked!))
-
So it seems only logical, that things that would obviously exist in game but is not for mechanical aspect, to be used in all kind of rp.
Sure, but that's not the point. How good is a given character at applying a visual disguise? Is it always perfect and undetectable? Can it go wrong at all? How is that determined? Mechanically, how are cosmetics different than a hood or a scarf? Is wanting to pass incognito and sending tells or spamming emotes really all it takes to keep a dark elf (or whatever) completely undetected? That's exactly what I was talking about - "I'm going to powder my face today so I don't have to put up with the few negatives that come with being a dark elf." No.
And does no other character have excellent vision? Is no other character especially perceptive? How is that determined? Spot check, right? Check against what? There's no disguise rule.
If the two players agree on the method, awesome, but there is no standard (because there is nothing to anchor the rules to, like a disguise kit or a disguise skill) and not everyone is going to want to stop and argue mechanics in tells for fifteen minutes.
It all ends up a big mess. It's an immovable object ("My character is a master of disguise after spending a century and a half on the surface hiding this way.") against an irresistible force ("My character has the eyes of ten hawks and perception that would make Sherlock Holmes cry, and his Spot check tops out at 103.")
-
Well in essence a dark elf or a wanted person that is wearing a hood, is not hiding. It's been stated before hand that hoods does not cover the whole face in a way that it is impossible to not see it. There for, if you are wearing a hood and stand completely straight, well of course you will be seen. It's a dead give away and there isn't much to argue about that.
But if we take my char, as I don't know any other darkelf that actually walks with a hood openly, When she meets someone she doesn't know, and has no magic on her that gives her concealment, invisibility, stone or barkskin, the she will Hide behind someone she trust, or keep her head low so that at that time, unless you are in a position to look up from under her head, you wont see her face. There again a Spot check would be useless as in RP it is emoted that she keeps it that way. But again, if there was a spot check made in any other circumstances that caught her unprepared (not hidden behind a friend or her ox, no emotes about how she holds herself, no spells to cover her) what ever the spot check would be, unless if it was an obvious 3 or lower, the person would automatically know what she is. That's me though, and I know that not all people act the way I do with her. But as a general and already mentioned rule. Hoods can not hide faces. A full mask/helmet does. And unless you were actually peeking in it eye to eye level, you wouldn't be able to see into a full face helmet (think of the jousts helmet that were used by knights and all), heck they had even trouble seeing just in front of them hehe.
But since there is only one actual IG full head mask (not helmet), and it's a male head at that, or one ninja mask. It really doesn't give much to work with, which is why people uses emotes to rp what they use to disguise themselves. I wish there were more to use, but there ain't, so we have to use what we have at our disposal and that's rp. So instead of calling that no real cost effort, maybe it should actually be a compliment to those who would think ahead of time and give good emotes descriptions of what their disguises are, or how they are trying to make it harder for someone to guess what they are. We don't see people roll spot check on someone that is wearing a knights helmet where the mask is covering so much of their face that they can't even see their own toes standing up. But anything else than that, can be arguably called no real efforts. It seems rather convenient and detrimental to the work and thought behind the rp of those who try to find other ways to Rp their character. That was my point.
-
Hehe it's a big mess indeed! It is flawed but it's the only thing we have so far. So long as all parties involved (Questers and GM) acknowledge it, then it's good. These disguises have flaws, otherwise there won't be a thrill to being a Dark Elf. The magical disguise can be detected by other spellcasters and the make up can also smudge, a load of possibilities can be taken into account. A standard would be great in terms of these things though. One way or another, it's always up to the player to make certain changes that way everything will be relatively fair and powergaming made non-existent. Just my two cents. :)
-
http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/8952/300655-195px_ff6_gogo_super.jpg
In other news, Gogo may be a dark elf!
Edit: And the guards of Port Hempstead might be able to beat monster races with the ugly stick if only they didn't keep losing it to the local kobalds.
-
Well in essence a .... blah blah .... That was my point.
(Part of) my point was even a closed-face helmet still allows people to see within if you are able to see out without penalty or restriction. The eye-slot that your knight example looks through is not a sixteenth of an inch wide.
-
(http://www.swordsdirect.com/PA-900sm.gif) (http://www.swordsdirect.com/PA-900sm.gif)
an other one (http://forums.layonara.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=137922&ppuser=4977)
and an other one (http://forums.layonara.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=137932&ppuser=4977)
and finally the dual usage full face mask. Protects you and lets you drain your pasta. (http://forums.layonara.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=137942)
not really sixteenth of an inch wide, but you get what I mean. You would have to be real close to see the eyes, as the helmet itself would shadow the eyes, unless you have protruding eyes. And that is just an example there are many other kinds, some without breathing intakes. The reason why the eyes were made so slim, was to avoid swords, daggers, arrows to enter easily in the helmet and be deflected around it.
But of course if you had the more spartan/gladiator (http://forums.layonara.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=137952) kind of helmet, well that is not a full face helmet.
-
Helmets designed for use by mounted knights.
Okay, if you wanna say your dark elf wears one of these 24/7, then I shall beseech Dorg to introduce a dark-elf skin modification that inflicts an appropriate range of combat and skill penalties as well as the inevitable head fungus that must result.
-
Helmets designed for use by mounted knights.
the jousting helmets (4 first pics) where for mounted knights.
Okay, if you wanna say your dark elf wears one of these 24/7, then I shall beseech Dorg to introduce a dark-elf skin modification that inflicts an appropriate range of combat and skill penalties as well as the inevitable head fungus that must result.
lol now that would be the day :D
But heck if they do wear that all the time they deserve it ;). Anyhow, hoods I agree with you plain to see. Vail, half mask helmet also. Full mask.... well unless you are standing nose to nose ..or at least 2 feets away.. not so much plain to see. Imho.
-
Helmets designed for use by mounted knights.
Okay, if you wanna say your dark elf wears one of these 24/7, then I shall beseech Dorg to introduce a dark-elf skin modification that inflicts an appropriate range of combat and skill penalties as well as the inevitable head fungus that must result.
In for the next update. ;)
-
In serious though, what's being objected to is not the presence of face-concealing head gear or even whether good enough cosmetics exist in the period and level of technology we have in the Layonara setting. Clearly, on Earth, cosmetics have been around for thousands of years. That's not really the point.
The point is this: In the absence of any real standards or mechanical support for disguises, saying "Oh I'm wearing a mask" or "I'm wearing light-colored makeup" is used as an "I win" device, and people hate "I win" devices when used against them. Just as bad, however, is the "I win" metagaming that goes on via portrait, server status or knowledge of the character bio.
-
Okay, if you wanna say your dark elf wears one of these 24/7, then I shall beseech Dorg to introduce a dark-elf skin modification that inflicts an appropriate range of combat and skill penalties as well as the inevitable head fungus that must result.
But I have Blindfight! and I'm immune to disease. *nods sagely, throws a few more sticks on the fire, and sings "We didn't start the fire..."*
-
I was going to say if you play a dark elf it's for one of two reasons: the mechanical benifiets or the challenge. If you are after stats, shame, shame. And if you are after a challenge then no impenatrable illusions, paints, helms, etc. that only your friends seem to be able to detect or only fail when convienant.
But then I thought about it and decided that these are one of those threads that can't really be helped. And I really don't like fueling pointless discussions on the board, it only gives them more life.
Sooo....
*Grabs a sword and slashes out his post and then stabs the rest of the thread*
Die beast! Die, die!
P.S.: I have a pet...niggle, did he say? Bloody Aussies. *winks at Pseud*
It's umm *thinks quick* How guys dress female characters. Like Ohhh My gawwd, where did you learn fashion? Of course I am not saying ALL just a LOT.
And mis-matching boots. Do you really need your right boot red and your left blue so you can rememebr which foot goes in which boot? If people only knew the nightmares Raz has after seeing some Layo fashions.
All my serious niggles are too serious, so I keep them locked up. ;)
-
I should really make a new pair of battle robes for Ni'haer, I'm getting tired of the 'evil' look and the spikes are getting really old. But somehow he looks good in his current garb since it complements his scrawny physique. Now we're talking about fashion and what our characters wear. Please save us.
-
P.S.: I have a pet...niggle, did he say? Bloody Aussies. *winks at Pseud*
It's umm *thinks quick* How guys dress female characters. Like Ohhh My gawwd, where did you learn fashion? Of course I am not saying ALL just a LOT.
And mis-matching boots. Do you really need your right boot red and your left blue so you can rememebr which foot goes in which boot? If people only knew the nightmares Raz has after seeing some Layo fashions.
Hope you don't mean Tyra, she might not be fashionable, but her clothes always match... ;)
-
Really, with all the other places a thread like this could have/has gone in the past, silly comments about fashion is downright enjoyable. But then, since Pseudo started this thread, it also is entirely appropriate for PC fashions to have a place amidst "serious" discussion of metagaming, race, and cheese.
-
(http://i.ehow.com/images/GlobalPhoto/Articles/4527484/CheddarWheelWeb_Full.jpg)
-
So instead of calling that no real cost effort, maybe it should actually be a compliment to those who would think ahead of time and give good emotes descriptions of what their disguises are, or how they are trying to make it harder for someone to guess what they are.
Read this again:
I'm not saying it isn't a reasonable way to disguise oneself or that it wouldn't have been invented, only that there's no real cost or effort involved for the PC.
To be clear, player effort is not what I was talking about and I wasn't insulting player cleverness. There is no cost or effort for the character because there is nothing mechanical in place - no Disguise skill, no Disguise Kit, no anything - that requires any cost or effort. Players do take advantage of that, though, on both sides; with no rules, anything goes. Again with the big mess.
-
It all ends up a big mess. It's an immovable object ("My character is a master of disguise after spending a century and a half on the surface hiding this way.") against an irresistible force ("My character has the eyes of ten hawks and perception that would make Sherlock Holmes cry, and his Spot check tops out at 103.")
In general, if I see even the remotest attempt to wear a plausible disguise, I will (with the exception of one PC who is specifically aware of these things) honor it. Never mind that covering your face is one of the most obvious things you can do, and draws immediate police attention, and not to mention being illegal in certain U.S. states and countries. I'll at least give you points for trying.
But most characters don't even go that far. There is not even the attempt to work a plausible disguise into the backstory of the typical Layonaran dark elf writeup. It's all mostly "I'm an elf who wears a hood so you can't recognize what I am. You get a very creepy feeling looking at me, since I wear all black, carry myself like a stalker, and have so much evil magic that I glow like a blacklight. But no one ever bothers to ask me to take the hood off, or ask questions, or anything, because I'm mysteriously evil, and you'd never even be suspicious of me. Really."
Clearly, the people who think this works have never ever had the experience of being questioned by a suspicious cop, much less a security officer before getting on the Israeli airline El Al.
In other words, not everyone acts like the typical victim in a slasher flick: a clueless, innocent, naif, with the survival skills of an overripe tomato. This should be especially true for PCs who see plenty of death.
But, we're all trying to have fun here. So I make allowances.
-
The gnomes inventing sunglasses comment immediately made me think of the whole of the [strike]Underdark[/strike] Deep running around like the more modern image of some vampires with the long coats, death pale skin and shades.
I don't know why, but it was really funny to me for some reason... Either you're a dark elf or you're a vampire and I don't break fast with either of them! *shakes fist*
Dark elf vampires with sunglasses and katanas! I so want that quest to be run! There has to also be the Blade-inspired half-dark elf half-vampire weaponmaster who hunts the vampires with a silver katana twice as tall as himself. It's like, mandatory. :D
-
Guess I will add my two bits to the subject. DEs and gobos are really the only ones trying to hide what they are as all the big monster races have very little chance to do so. So to all the DEs that are trying to hide what they are out there with hoods and helms and head to toe skin covering I say this:
1. You are slight of build (read as elf like) and you are covered from head to toe. My PC was not born yesterday and has known more then a few DEs. Guess what he thinks when he sees you?
2. When you are in a fight you have to move about (a lot), you take many hits, you need to be able to see to shoot, swing, or cast. Sure I will accept the "I keep myself covered from head to toe" thing if you are walking down the road but not when you are in a fight. Maybe, just maybe a caster can get away with it, if nothing runs up to them and gives them a bonk on the head.
-
To be clear, player effort is not what I was talking about and I wasn't insulting player cleverness. There is no cost or effort for the character because there is nothing mechanical in place - no Disguise skill, no Disguise Kit, no anything - that requires any cost or effort. Players do take advantage of that, though, on both sides; with no rules, anything goes. Again with the big mess.
I understand what you are saying, but still, I can't agree with that. Should a PC or player be penalized for the lack of mechanical aspect of subterfuge which clearly relates to RP for the disguises, masks, camouflage paint etc?
And when you say that there is no effort for the character, then you undeniably put it also on the player as it is the player who plays the character who is stuck with the unfortunate lack of mechanical instance to promote subterfuge. So every thing -must- rely on understanding on both part and emotes and RP.
And I have to say that we actually have four skills that could be used for such thing. Craft armor, bluff, persuade, and perform. All of those can be used in conjunction to promote RP. Have a person roll a hide and armor craft check (don't know if the last is possible) against your wis/int and spot.
As it has obviously been said many times and for many different reason, we are dealing with a limited system, and in such we have to be understanding of those limits and not put on the player character and their players for the lack of support needed to do it.
I will take for example the discussion there was about spells and balance that happened a while ago (not that I want to reignite it mind you). But it was said that there were many spells that existed in DND that were not supported by the engine. But yet some Gm's would allow you to use them if it fitted their quests. If a gm is able to actually let a player go outside of the limitation of the game engine, why should we, as player, not be as gracious and leave what the engine can not support to rp. You want to roll a spot, send a tell first and ask the player what he is wearing, then see with him, if a spot would be appropriated to find out what he or she is, with his costume in mind. I think the community has grown enough and matured enough that those playing monstrous races also plays other races and can put them selves in your shoes also, and understand that there is a risk for playing such race. If the player obstinately refuses, then you are in no way or form forced to rp with that player in the future.
~0~0~0~0
Edits: Craft armor check actually works in game. SO I suggest that as a RP tool those who absolutely wishes to create disguises or camouflage powder/ paint, put some points in this skill and uses in rp situation. I know that it's not a popular thing, but I do also understand the need to have a common ground that every one could relate to. This could be it. This way those who feels that there is nothing to support the creation of mask and disguises can be content, and you actually have a cost to create realistic disguises. I know I will start putting some points in it for one of my char.. who isn't a dreaded Dark elf ;). I also suggest that a counter could be spot and intelligence checks, v.s. Craft armor and intelligence checks.
Of courses there is also other ways to go around this if the person trying to find out if their suspicions is real can go. If they knew the culprit by hearing their voice and face before hand, they can do a listen and int, vs a perform and persuade. Gears exists to enhance perform and persuade checks, so there can be an actual cost to that too.
There is a variety of way to go about this. All that is needed is a couple of tell to see what the other party are okay with.
-
Guess I will add my two bits to the subject. DEs and gobos are really the only ones trying to hide what they are as all the big monster races have very little chance to do so.
My pack ox is a wemic in disguise.
-
*points up to his edit*
-
My pack ox is a wemic in disguise.
My wemic is a pack ox in disguise.
Not as tough though. He took on two hawks bare handed, as wemics are wont to do, and only lived because he stabilized.
:D
-
This (http://forums.layonara.com/ask-gamemaster/246362-question-about-quest.html#post1423412) reminded me, because of the stuff about all the text DMs have to watch...
I have a niggle that ranges anywhere from silly to mildly irritating, depending on circumstances: unnecessarily emoting. That's not a great name since it's not easy to define just exactly what a "necessary emote" is, but that's what I usually call it.
Here's an example. Imagine a situation where there is a speaker, such as when an NPC is telling the party something. The unnecessary emote *listens* will pop up. Seriously? You emoted the default, man. I'm assuming you're listening unless you emote otherwise. In a small group, it's just silly. In a large group, it's mildly irritating when the text scrolls faster than it really needs to because three (or five, or more!) people feel the need to emote unnecessarily.
-
I use the *listens* emote to indicate that my character's attention is now focused on the talker and that they are no longer participating in what was previously taking place, so I guess its a contraction, *stops what they were previously doing and listens to the oratory*.
Its also sometimes an OOC message for others to be giving their full attention to the oratory so that A) they know what's going on, and B) that they're not distracting from the oratory by contributing to the text flying up the screen. :)
Regards,
Script Wrecked.
-
*nods* Reasonable enough. It still just looks like an unnecessary emote, though, heh. Do you think an emote like *shushes Leanthar* (haha!) might be better sometimes?
And, of course, *listens* was only one example. In a large enough group in certain situations, almost any emote can be unnecessary. With a handful of people, "flavor emotes" that don't directly communicate but give some idea of the character are great. A nervous tick, adjusting armor, whatever - all nice stuff. In a larger group with many people popping off the flavor, it just mucks up the text, y'know?
-
Absolutely.
I personally minimize flavor emotes in such large groups. Though every now-and-then, I may pop one just to let everyone know I'm still there. :)
And perhaps you meant, *shushes, Leanthar* ;)
-
After having this happen to me again tonight, I decided to add it to the list here.
It drives me crazy when you are in a group and taking your time traveling with rp'ing... to only have someone come past you and not even pause to join up and rp. They just run past you and spawning everything on their way. I have had it done on the way to CNR and just out in places like the forest.
Be considered of other players. If you do not like rp then maybe this is not the server for you. There are many others out there that would be a better place for this behavior.
-
Lynn1020 raises a good point:
They just run past you and spawning everything on their way. I have had it done on the way to CNR and just out in places like the forest.
and I think most of us would agree. However, I know of one character who does this regularly and with justifiable RP support for them. Not for the first time have I been RPing with others in the rest area of the Goblin Wastelands and this character has run dragging some goblins with them (no names, but you know who you are). The outcome for my character is that they will not join in any party that that character is in, as they do not appear to be sociable or the sort of person you would trust in a party.
Agreed that this may not be the normal sort of situation that Lynn1020 talks about, but it's worth keeping in mind (and perhaps worth giving them a thick PvP ear when you catch up with them; which would suit both types of character play). :D
-
Lynn1020 raises a good point:
and I think most of us would agree. However, I know of one character who does this regularly and with justifiable RP support for them. Not for the first time have I been RPing with others in the rest area of the Goblin Wastelands and this character has run dragging some goblins with them (no names, but you know who you are). The outcome for my character is that they will not join in any party that that character is in, as they do not appear to be sociable or the sort of person you would trust in a party.
Agreed that this may not be the normal sort of situation that Lynn1020 talks about, but it's worth keeping in mind (and perhaps worth giving them a thick PvP ear when you catch up with them; which would suit both types of character play). :D
No it isn't anything like that. This the norm for this player but it doesn't have anything to do with RP.