WL frustrated with options offered

[Gulnyr]

Thanks, Dezza.

I can honestly tell you this..There are things I would love to say yes to players for every day but they are either a) so complex in their enacting Im reluctant due to time restraints to touch, b) Pushing the boundaries of what is fair to other players, c) Impinges on other players fun on Layo, d) Borders on the preposterous, e) Is reasonable but was something they could Rp out ic themselves and f) Perfectly reasonable and able to be accomplished with relative ease.

Do you tell the players so?  For example, do you reply to an especially complex idea, "Hey, nice thinking but you may be stretching things for the resources we've got."  Maybe ask them to cut back, or even offer an idea or two if you're feeling it?

That's important because it's a different experience to get a negative response - at least it's a response.  I know I'm not the only one who doesn't get answers, and being left without answers is worse than being told 'no.'  If there's a 'no' given, there's a reason given, too, so there is often still some possibility.  No answer at all is just the death of the idea.

[jadewillow]

Obviously I have not been terribly involved in Layo development and plots in my four years of playing, but I'll give my opinion none the less. I think the team has done a wonderful job at keeping NWN Layo alive and kicking. Specifically I'd like to thank Dorg for all he does. NWN would not be alive today if it were not for his work in my opinion. Ideally there would be more interaction from the core team, but given their focus I think it makes sense. I think everyone would agree that we have a very simple problem. There are not enough resources available to keep both the MMO and NWN to the standards we would all like. As you can probably guess, there is also a very simple answer: pull the plug on NWN Layo. Hopefully, we can all agree that the future of Layo is the MMO. NWN is diverting precious resources from it.

I for one would not know what to do with what little free time I have without NWN Layo, but I would survive and return if the MMO is able to capture that same spirit that Gulnyr refered to: The ability for the player to have substantial impact on the world and its history. That is Layo's biggest differentiator and is a must in the MMO.

Having helped build successful and unsuccessful businesses for almost 20 years, I can tell you the one biggest reason for failure is the inability to stay focused and develop an identity.

In my humble opinion, the team should drop everything and focus on the MMO. As painful as that might be for us players, it is the best course if Layo ever wants to be a viable business.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

NWN has been Layo's Identity for what...  7-8 years?  Runes is a nice way to get some notice, but if NWN folds up, I don't think the MMO has any legs to stand on, other then some loyal fans clinging to some hopes and promises.

[jadewillow]

NWN has been Layo's Identity for what...  7-8 years?  Runes is a nice way to get some notice, but if NWN folds up, I don't think the MMO has any legs to stand on, other then some loyal fans clinging to some hopes and promises.

Don't disagree. Layo NWN was built out of labor of love, not as a business. If Layonara wants to be business, they need to move to another platform. However, if they want to be a hobby, then drop the MMO. I'm not saying either is better, but I certainly believe if they have any chance at being a business, NWN Layo will need to come to an end unfortunately.

Again just my opinion.

[Polak76]

I for one disagree with the original post.

Maybe it's beacause in the 6-8 years (god I can't remember how long it's been now, possibly more) I've focused on making evil/dark aligned characters that I've gotten too used to being alone and forgotten.  Was I upset by this...hell no.  I found others like myself and we stuck together, worked hard and eventually got what we deserved.  It made it all the more worth it having put the effort in and I can't thank the team enough for rewarding us with the beautiful temple to name one of them.

Someone raised a thread once a while back about characters under lvl 20 that are epic in their own right.  i was very pleased to see that my old character made it in the group, together with my dark comrads.  You see it's not about having GM's alter the world becuase your character is lvl 30+ and should be god-like becuase you're a WL.  It's more about the influence you have on others around you that is WL not the title and level of the char.

As far as being told what to do these days, mate, we've been told 'no' almost all the time.  Did it stop us...No.  We kept at it and eventually it paid off.  One example is the recent approval of Champions of Corath, Pyrtechon, Baerun...etc.  We worked on this for a long time.  If the team acted on every whim from a high level character then it wouldn't be balanced.  And I won't go into the resources since MYC, ED & Dezza summed it up perfectly.

As mentioned I've been around for a very long time and I've yet to crack lvl 20.  It was only until the last 12 months that things are starting to happen for us Corathites.  I'm also finially doing my first WL.  I don't anticipate I'll ever make it past lvl 30 nor do I expect that I'll run the temple, tilt the balance of light and dark, reach lichedom or sip tea with Corath himself.  As a WL (if i pass) i only expect to influence the people around me, mainly to hate me most of the time, otherwise assist guiding other evil chacaters who want to make waves.  I'm sorry but if I was to expect that being WL means I'm god-like and deserve more than the next man who puts a lot of effort in RP that would be simply selfish.  

Cheers,
Polak76

[Acacea]

That is kind of the point of moving on from NWN, though - one of the goals is to use Layonara as a campaign setting. Leave NWN in the hands of those that love it and allow them to use Layonara as a campaign setting like a bunch of dudes around a gaming table, and focus completely on the MMO. If you like any of what they do with it, all the DMs have to sign the papers so you can pick and choose what you like. If you don't like it, you don't use it. NWN is ahead of the MMO's timeline already, anyway, you can see it from the only times referenced in the writeups and the expected lifespans of rulers.

Skipped long post to say that.

[Dezza]

Short answer....Yes....but then sometimes Im so gummed up with PM's that it takes time to get back to people..Not ideal again...but...I do...

I question why you even need to ask this question unless you personally feel that this does not happen?

Thanks, Dezza.


Do you tell the players so?  For example, do you reply to an especially complex idea, "Hey, nice thinking but you may be stretching things for the resources we've got."  Maybe ask them to cut back, or even offer an idea or two if you're feeling it?

That's important because it's a different experience to get a negative response - at least it's a response.  I know I'm not the only one who doesn't get answers, and being left without answers is worse than being told 'no.'  If there's a 'no' given, there's a reason given, too, so there is often still some possibility.  No answer at all is just the death of the idea.

[Acacea]

There are a lot of different topics kind of crashing in the same thread, and I agree with some statements while disagreeing with others, and feel some from both camps are not all that relevant to the first post to begin with. A good chunk of the problem to me is in the subject line. "options offered" heh.

You have to actually take action, not just think about it and wait for someone to give you the plan. Get a goal. People at these levels should suffer from an abundance of things they want to do, not too few. It's not feasible to do them all of course, but pick one and do something. Goals are not "I want to be important" or "I want my god to like me better" or "I want these people to fear me." Those are all reactionary. Decide you want to capture a dragon. Destroy a bloodpool. Join a cult, buy some slaves, place some wards, build a temple, repair a city, start a library.

Sending a message to DMs saying "I want to be involved with this" is a lot different than saying "I sent informants to the area to look into the murders, and would like to scry with this personal item for its owner, here are my stats and this DM has the info on my informants." One is waiting for options offered, the other is getting a plan and doing it, with GMs only the means to success or failure. It is at that point when you start relying on GMs, when you've done what you can as a player, and that point where things can start clogging up or getting lost.

There are plenty of times when I have let some events go by on the forums because I get pretty stupid tired of sending PMs that will no doubt just put another burden on the DM, especially when the ones that matter that don't get answered at all. When plot DMs go missing for months at a time but on other threads other DMs talk about players not doing anything or sharing information, continuing to invest in moving anything forward can get pretty tiresome. And you know, I wasn't involved in any of those things I let roll by. Pretty sure I could have been, but if it's not worth my time it's certainly not worth theirs to involve me.

As irritating as it can sometimes be to chase people with PMs and post long messages in forums again and again, that's actually pretty much why I was supposed to be a WL in the first place. Attending quests isn't enough, going to parties wasn't enough.

I once was on a series where we resumed at a pretty awkward spot for others to rejoin us. I hated that, confused people would show up not knowing why they were there and the whole thing would grind to a halt again. Rather than whine about it being open, I looked on the signup list and sent a lore bird to every person that signed up who wasn't in the party asking them to meet us and giving them information to brush up on. That is why I was a WL. In every series I have been on Acacea has spit out the background in its entirety when asked unless there was a fairly deadly reason not to, and one of the few that kept contact with NPCs after their purposes were done.

She was content to let others lead, but when forced would take matters into her own hands, and occasionally was that feared party member who strayed towards the big red button labeled "Do Not Push Under Any Circumstances." On her own WL she did not know where she was going half the time and didn't really have much of a plan at any point, but was constantly moving and did not waste any time biting nails. Think of something, plan the best you can, do it. Sometimes things blow up, and there's always a billion things you never thought of. That's okay. Insert your quarters and try again. If I can't get up the motivation to do another trip, to add another book, to send another PM, to write another song, then it's time to take a break.

I get tired because of too much to do and too little time to catch up on it, and too little information shared between those running things, not lack of things offered. Dream something up and do it. If not, play Lemmings. If yes, then worry about the lines. I didn't mean for it to be a rant, and certainly neither I nor my character is close to perfect, but it isn't enough to say "I want to be involved more" or "I'd like to know what's going on with the cult." Wouldn't we all! Pick a road and start walking and stick with it. It's harder than it sounds sometimes. Sometimes though, it's just a matter of going back to bury the redshirts everyone left behind once the quest was over.

[Gulnyr]

I'm not suggesting you personally don't answer, Dezza.  I apologize if you thought I was.  

The way you make it sound is exactly how it should be - get to it as you're able, knowing there is a point where an understandable length of time becomes a ridiculous length of time.

Sometimes there are no answers given, though, else I wouldn't be talking about unanswered questions.

[Acacea]

Regarding the NWN/MMO separation, I do still believe it is not only a good idea but necessary, and agree with everything Gulnyr has stated. It's not that I disagreed with what he was saying - far from it - just that the way the frustrations were phrased it seemed like that was really only part of the problem. I'm not denying that it's there though, and in this I don't see how "more DMs" helps, really. I'm not against it, I just don't think it's relevant. An example -

I had a funny oops where someone was going off the writeups looking at the leader of a major thieves guild and making them a prime factor in a WL, it's all stamped and everything... then threw up their hands because I was trying to get information and had to explain why Acacea was attempting to contact the church of Branderback. "Uh, I'm not trying to be lame, I'm really not, but Acacea helped make that guild." There are real player-made scenarios behind writeups, and people want to keep doing that - both interacting with the things they have done in the past and altering imaginary new writeups to come. Not just quoting documents to say yes/no you may proceed. Where though does 10 more GMs knowing even less really have more impact?

This is a completely separate thread, but where's the DM handbook? That's what you really need for a campaign setting

Anyway, telling WLs to be more active in Pibe's thread while also saying Storold is one of the few who are does not really address his issue. Saying someone couldn't understand "milty's" vision of the world because they haven't been here as long isn't really the case, either. It is always nice to tip the hat to someone like L who started it, or Ed who collects the information and publishes it, or Dorg who constantly moderates the forums and performs various administrative duties and is the only reason we ever have any updates at all, but relying on people who have to make the MMO their priority is doing a disservice to your own community and often to the MMO itself. I'm not trying to be a jerk about anyone, this is the case - they do not run the quests, in most cases they do not write the content, they do not make the characters, most of the time they do not even ever meet the characters, and spending more time to be more involved takes away from their other responsibilities. At some point someone is going to make them cut the cord and refocus, or else they will have to devote more time here.

Could you not argue that Honora, having actually written most of the deity writeups, should be the NWN deity person as opposed to the person hitting find on the documents? What about all the DMs that sent Honora information that she put in the writeups, the content that she only summarized rather than created? What about all the stuff she has to do? Frankly I would have rather dealt with half the Brelin questions myself instead of relying on Pan, because of the other things he was responsible for.

Even now, because of RL and MMO and who knows what other responsibilities, I have had PMs sitting gathering dust for months. I've had PMs I just decided to drop rather than pursue after waiting so long, and once I got a response a year later. Sometimes I poke them, sometimes I shrug and move on. A negative response is better than none. At what point can someone help out with this stuff, you know?

And yeah, I really sneakily sliced the seeming length of my post by posting separately.

[The Unchosen one]

I've been playing on layo on and off sporadically for a few years now, and I have to say that I have experienced pretty much the opposite of the OP. To be honest Ive never felt more able to make a significant impact in the world of layo.character level has never been an issue for me (I've never had a character over level 9, truth be told) and any previous issued I've had over layo, the server rules or player behaviour have only improved on leaps and bounds. I have to add that I personally don't want to see the NWN server go, as my fear that the MMO might remove much of what gives this place it's appeal.

But, in short, I can only support what has been said here: meaningfully choice is alive and well in the game, and if it takes my character a long time to achieve any, then my satisfaction will be only sweeter on the end. A good story, is above all, why most of us are here.

[Alatriel]

I've been sort of holding off on my two cents worth here because well... I only just completed (except for wrap up) my wldq.  But I think it all boils down to a point of view.  Just because Daniella is now considered a world leader doesn't mean she gets to sit on her hands and have things fall into her lap.  Quite the opposite actually.  A leader is supposed to do exactly that- lead.  Now, maybe it's part of Daniella's religion also, and yes, I had to actually sit down a bit this morning and think "huh... okay, I just finished the impossible... now what do I do?"  So I thought about it, then I discussed with a few people whose opinions I value, and I realized that the reason I wanted to do this in the first place was not so I could get a whifty item or title or XP or even really prestige, or having my name bolded with the cool little namey thingy underneath that says "World Leader" underneath (can you tell I"m still really excited I passed?).  The reason I wanted to do this in the first place is to have a -lasting- influence on the world in order to affect change for the better in relation to my character's goals and views.  A lot of what I worked for before asking for the wldq in the first place was trying to build up the community of Toranites as a player base.  So why would I stop doing that after I pass a wl quest?  I wouldn't.  But now that Daniella has passed that test and has gained the influence that the quest has brought her, it's not that I have nothing else to do, it's that so many more doors are actually opened.  

Does that mean that through those doors will walk out my next task and quest idea?  Absolutely not.  I still have to pick which one to walk through, which one to pursue, which GM I think has the time, inventiveness, and willingness to take on the next challenge, and it is my job to see that those things are accomplished.  The responsibility actually falls heavier on me or any world leader in my opinion because of that added trust.  

If you want to see something happen, write up a quest idea and offer it to the GM team.  Run it as a cdq, gcdq, or even offer it up as a serverwide quest to see what happens.  Stir something up.  

I personally have a lot planned for what to do with Daniella next and I for one am psyched beyond all reason at this point in time for the countless possibilities.  I expect to be turned down on some, told I'm crazy on others, and there will be plenty of hit or miss things.  However, if you brainstorm 100 ideas, at least a couple of them should take wing.

Have fun.  Be creative.  Be active.  That's what makes the world of Layonara great.

[Pseudonym]

Could you expand on why you don't think you can affect the gameworld? I ask because I don't play a WL, yet I feel like Steel has and continues to affect the world. Moreover, I strive to involve others and give more players the opportunity to leave a mark on the world in their own way or as part of Steel's adventures. As a WL, you potentially have more resources available than my non-WL character, so I'm unclear as to why you would feel stifled.

Sorry, late to this debate.

Out of curiosity (and don't read a tone into my text that isn't there!), what lore exactly has Steel changed in the last three years that was already in existence?

[Xaltotun]

I had written a reply to this post, but have deleted it as I am afraid that it may be taken the wrong way due to imagined tones

Pseudonym: (and don't read a tone into my text that isn't there!)

What concerns me is that when someone raises a concern (re: Pibemande's orginal points), they are not answered directly but adamantly defended. These posts are not personal attacks: we need solutions, not defences.

And I want Layo NWN to stay as I love the characters, players and the community, but I despair when I read threads like this that go on and on.

[Dezza]

Frankly I think I outlined the fact that there is no answer to what was originally posted. Without more in game quest GM's actively available to run things it aint gunna happen, full stop.

I think thats pretty clear. We live with what we got, we do the best we can, if we can get by without GM support do so. If you can't...you aint gunna be happy.

[Honora]

Could you not argue that Honora, having actually written most of the deity writeups, should be the NWN deity person as opposed to the person hitting find on the documents? What about all the DMs that sent Honora information that she put in the writeups, the content that she only summarized rather than created? What about all the stuff she has to do?

 
 
 *IF* the option existed to field deity questions, I would do it, absolutely. But I only wrote half the gods, and half of those in conjunction with others, so there would still be time passing while I chased down so and so and reviewed the request with them. I'm not sure it would really save response time.
 
 Nevertheless I did let Ed know I'd be willing to, if he wished.

[Rowana]

Sorry, late to this debate.

Out of curiosity (and don't read a tone into my text that isn't there!), what lore exactly has Steel changed in the last three years that was already in existence?

He has. I'm not going into detail. Just stating he has because I was the GM responsible for the "update" in the text. What's more he's working on changing more of it (or at least there are rumblings of it).

~row

[lonnarin]

I've been here for going on 6+ years now and have yet to bother with a WL sticker on my character sheet.  What defines a WL?  Somebody who's world-reknowned both in game and in the game world, makes an impact on the world through their actions, takes on the role of guiding the other players on quests and frequent trips, helps new players get adjusted to the server, and otherwise helps drive the story and the enjoyment of the world itself on an epic scale.

I don't need a sticker for that.  I don't even need any 30+ lvl characters for that.  I'd like to think that in my 6+ years of dedication, I've already accomplished this on my own.  Therefore, I have little craving for a sticker or a status symbol, trophy or any other such artifact that proves what I already know.

People who are struggling to make an impact on the world should just hop in game and play to have fun, play with the goal of others having fun, and stop fretting about the special wands or shiny star stickers on the top of their character sheets.  The recognition that matters is from the players you game with every day, and not what the scribes in the Hall of Heroes have to say about you.

As said above in this thread, there are plenty of sub 20th level characters who in my mind are "World Leaders" just as there are plenty of "World Leaders" who I've only heard their name, never met them in game and whose impact on my day to day enjoyment of the world has been negligible.  No amount of staff recognition, quest rewards, statues in game or tales of epic deeds hundreds of years ago will change that.  Only the player's involvement in the world and willingness to get involved with the population logging into the server.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

I like to think that Shiff, my best known PC, has had an impact.  He was there to talk too much during the Ovdear negotiations, he was there to Annoy the Golden Emerald when she just woke up, he was there to break things to make monster go away when no one else could figure out why balors kept spawning, and he was there to slash and smash Drach's at the Battle for Hurix.  And all I got for that was this lousy T-Shirt....  

[Pibemanden]

As a WL, you potentially have more resources available than my non-WL character, so I'm unclear as to why you would feel stifled.

...

Storold is one of the most well known PCs OOC, and IC he is recognized all over Mistone, as well as various other regions around the world. If he wants to meet with nobility, what's stopping him? If he wants to perform magical experiments, what's stopping him? If he wants to start a holy war against Rael for stifling the use of the Al'Noth, what's stopping him?

I believe that Storold history is what is stopping him here, the one world changing event he was responsible for was killing several thousands and destroying a whole town. I see this as the biggest hindrance for any interaction of this kind.

Was it my own fault as a player and Storolds own fault as a character that this happened, surely it was! However given that Storold isn't an evil champion who makes his name by changing the world this way and getting away with it, I believe that the harm already done is great enough to justify that not many outside the church would deal with him. Maybe that isn't the case, maybe it is.

However that isn't really my concern as I haven't really bothered to check with Storolds standing with anyone but his church, which has been a rather tricky business which also greatly upset me. Which was due to me being protective of Storold.

Sadly there is one thing that I am rather iffy about, but again that is just me being a worse person than I should be, and that is that the goal of Storolds WLDQ never came to pass. Some might disagree there, and really they are free to, but I feel that this;

I envision Storold having a quite high position within the protectors of the weave as a result of a successful quest. Maybe even Weavestrike, but this is not required. He will be leading some of the protectors with a stern hand as he has done with all of his students so far, however he will also be more of a friend than a leader who just shout out commands for the people under him.

never happened. Was it my own fault, most likely! However it still doesn't change that I am saddened by the fact that it never came to pass. And there isn't much indicating that I can ever make it happen.

Why does a title next to Storolds name mean so much to me? I don't know, maybe it is just too much pride on my part for having made Storold what he is and having played him solely for the last 5-6 years. Most of all I would just like that Storold was something special and not one of something, surely there are always people above him, if nothing else I doubt that he will ever be a deity so I bet Lucinda would keep an watchful eye on him

(being the investigation of Storold's claims of corruption in the church and the pursuit of a certain creature in the Pits at the request of a certain general)

I guess I wasn't clear enough, these were surely good things to do. But the options offered in these cases is also what I am frustrated about, what you are telling me is that I could just have done them.
It is totally my own fault that I didn't do them, but the options I were given were;

Go find demon and deal with him, no information offered

Work together with a player who sadly left the world and request a CDQ.

Sorry but those two options doesn't cut it for me, if they should have I apologize, but as they stand I am very frustrated about them because they aren't open at all.

As for the PM I am very grateful for it, but as I had already answered the options left for me there were either being pursued, had been pursued or were uninteresting/nonsensical(maybe I feel that way because of the concerns statet above Ed's quote) to Storold as a character. Again I am very grateful for the effort you put into them, however they gave me nothing new or worth it for my character out of it.