WL frustrated with options offered

[Pibemanden]

So now that I have played for quite a few years I have seen a rather strange tendency over the years. Seemingly the player get less and less influence on the world, the WLs(/epics) in particular.

Back in the day epics were really really epic, I mean they were the leaders of their churchs, almost avatars of their gods, dragons, you name it...

Now it is all about handing XP out to people who are doing a great job in the gameworld... Not that this is bad for anyone, however the change is...

I agree that there was some point in Layonara history where there were too huge a gap between what "normal players" and WL's could do. But right now no one can do anything which seems even more silly than someone can do something.

Maybe it is just me, but besides one event that took place a couple of years ago I have been unable to do -anything- what so ever to affect the gameworld. I mean really, it has even gone to the point where even if I don't do something things will happen anyway. So now playing is more like getting told, oh you know this thing will happen in the future, you don't have to do anything it will happen no matter what.

((What I have tried so far:

Contacting GMs
Involving other players
RPing IG
Answering IC forum posts))

Well alright, if that is the case why even play, because one of the reasons I really liked playing here was that every action has consequences.. Well that is cool, as long as you can actually do something that matters in the first place.

Instead I feel stuck in a place where GM's can make a character ten times stronger than mine and with a hundred times the options while having their morning coffee(At least it feels that way to me, I have no idea how NPCs are approved, but just the fact that Storold doesn't actually have a rank as such makes it very easy to make something better.). So all you are left with is following the arrows on the floor and kill the occasional monster in your way, or of course join the eternal grind towards having all upgrades on all your gear and watch your XP counter tick up towards infinity.

[miltonyorkcastle]

Maybe it is just me, but besides one event that took place a couple of years ago I have been unable to do -anything- what so ever to affect the gameworld.

Could you expand on why you don't think you can affect the gameworld? I ask because I don't play a WL, yet I feel like Steel has and continues to affect the world. Moreover, I strive to involve others and give more players the opportunity to leave a mark on the world in their own way or as part of Steel's adventures. As a WL, you potentially have more resources available than my non-WL character, so I'm unclear as to why you would feel stifled.

I mean really, it has even gone to the point where even if I don't do something things will happen anyway. So now playing is more like getting told, oh you know this thing will happen in the future, you don't have to do anything it will happen no matter what.

Well, of course. That is, the world is designed to be living and breathing regardless of the PCs with which we populate it. If we do nothing, stuff happens; if we do something, stuff happens. Some events we can change or prevent, and other things we can't prevent, but we can add our own mark to it.

Storold is one of the most well known PCs OOC, and IC he is recognized all over Mistone, as well as various other regions around the world. If he wants to meet with nobility, what's stopping him? If he wants to perform magical experiments, what's stopping him? If he wants to start a holy war against Rael for stifling the use of the Al'Noth, what's stopping him?

Of course, nothing happens overnight, and most plans take IG and RL years to accomplish, but that's part of story-creation and the fact that we all have RLs. Steel has spent IG decades (more than fifty years) working his plots with Fisterion and the Cult, as well as other hidden schemes and ventures. I know plenty others doing the same thing, though I will only speak from my own PC's experience.

If you need help fleshing out an idea, or just considering options, what is and isn't feasible, etc, send me a PM, or post in the WL forums for feedback. I bet the other WLs would be more than happy to jump on the bandwagon of some hair-brained scheme, and the rest might appreciate a well thought-out approach.

[Filatus]

It's not easy working towards change. You definitely need to form some sort of coalition of players if you're looking to make a really big impact, even if you're a WL. Speaking from experience, even then you can fail.. miserably, heheh.

[Gulnyr]

Way back, things were a lot looser.  DMs were able and willing to make calls on the fly and few of the decisions were reversed, at least as I remember.  There wasn't as much of an idea of Layonara as a very specific thing then, though.

Now, we have all the great lore and the world is its own thing, which is pretty cool.  The DMs are less willing to make immediate decisions, though, sending everything back to Ed.  Everything is tight and regulated, which would be fine if we could get timely answers.  But we don't.  Remember [post=1555092]this[/post]?  Still nothing.  I've personally been waiting over seven months for an answer to one question.

And I think that's where a lot of the problem comes from today - established lore and the bottleneck for answers.  With established lore now, and all the work that has gone into writing it to establish a foundation for the MMO, more and more things aren't allowed to change.  DMs are afraid to make calls because they may overstep some line and have to go back and correct (retcon) their quests, and that doesn't make anyone happy in the end.  So more and more of everything gets shoveled to Ed for answers, and that just makes a bigger and bigger backlog that makes things feel even worse.

So I can't help agreeing with Pibe.  It's much harder to make changes now than it used to be, either because areas of lore are cut off from change by fiat or by lack of people with authority to give answers.  I actually feel bad for up-and-coming characters because it seems like they will never have the opportunities to do something as big as Jennara did.  During Jennara's work for Rohden, I had contact all the time.  If a week went by without an answer, something was very wrong.  Now we have fewer players and longer waits.  That is broken.

What would help so much is what has already been mentioned before - decouple NWN and the MMO.  Let someone else (or someones else, to avoid overload) handle NWN operations and a slightly divergent lore here while Ed handles the official lore for the MMO.  Even if DMs couldn't make huge calls on their own, having someone ready for questions just for NWN would speed up the turn-around, at least, so people wouldn't wait ages for answers.  It would at least feel like we were able to get something done in our plans for making impact on the world.

[Hellblazer]

What would help so much is what has already been mentioned before - decouple NWN and the MMO.  Let someone else (or someones else, to avoid overload) handle NWN operations and a slightly divergent lore here while Ed handles the official lore for the MMO.  Even if DMs couldn't make huge calls on their own, having someone ready for questions just for NWN would speed up the turn-around, at least, so people wouldn't wait ages for answers.  It would at least feel like we were able to get something done in our plans for making impact on the world.

Already proposed that and Ed was adamant that it wouldn't happen. But I'm still hopeful that in some part it will, to take some work load off his back and smooth things out for us.

[miltonyorkcastle]

And I think that's where a lot of the problem comes from today - established lore and the bottleneck for answers. With established lore now, and all the work that has gone into writing it to establish a foundation for the MMO, more and more things aren't allowed to change. DMs are afraid to make calls because they may overstep some line and have to go back and correct (retcon) their quests, and that doesn't make anyone happy in the end. So more and more of everything gets shoveled to Ed for answers, and that just makes a bigger and bigger backlog that makes things feel even worse.

I can honestly say this has been addressed by the Team, meaning that making room for characters to change the world and for GMs to devise world-altering quests without there being some massive-long wait for approval is something on which we're focusing.

I actually feel bad for up-and-coming characters because it seems like they will never have the opportunities to do something as big as Jennara did.

I wholeheartedly disagree with the sentiment that up-and-coming characters can't do something "as big" as Jennara. I'm sorry you feel that way, but the opportunity is still there, if you want to do it.

During Jennara's work for Rohden, I had contact all the time. If a week went by without an answer, something was very wrong. Now we have fewer players and longer waits. That is broken.

This is something that bothers me as well, not having the GM resources for the player-base. It's why I push for more GMs all the time. But "quality over quantity" will always be the motto here with regard to adding team members. So, basically, it's not because the lore questions can't be answered, but because we have a shortage of GM resources. I think with the recent GM additions, however, we're addressing this issue as well.

Also, note that most questions are answered within a day or two. There are very few questions out of the thousands put to the Team that take longer to answer or perhaps still remain unanswered. Again, I don't see the few unanswered questions as as a "lore is too rigid" issue, but rather a GM resource issue. Some things take time to discuss, or to write-up, and we simply may not have the time/manpower to do the things necessary to answer a given question in the way it needs to be answered. And this would not change if we decided to split the lore between the MMO and NWN. In fact, the load would get heavier for those that tried to maintain an NWN-only lore, because I for one would cease to work on NWN at all if the stories we make now would cease to affect the Layo of the future. That's the only thing that keeps me tied to the NWN version of Layo--that new players and old can, believe it or not, leave a mark that will last through to the future of Layonara.

[Gulnyr]

I wish I could believe things are still good, but I don't and I can't make myself believe it.  I still love the place.  I want to believe it.  I feel like we're not really working hard to keep the place alive as much as just keeping its corpse from getting cold.

Yes, the time issue is the problem.  I'm not denying the effort it takes.  But someone should have NWN first for those trying so hard here.  Yes, the MMO is awesome and needs attention, but those focused there should not be the immediate arbiters for here.  No question should go unanswered.  Months is too long.

[jrizz]

All along I have hoped that NWN Layo would decouple from the MMO and even have a chance to continue after the MMO comes out.

They are going to be very different worlds, yes based on the same lore and maps and even have some of the same names about as NPCs (since PC carry over would be highly unfair unless all PCs can carry over) but after that they will be very different.

I like the world as it is, I am sure I will also like the MMO but will be something new with a familiar feel, so I would also like to have the current world to play in as well. And I would like to have some folks to "run the show" over here as well.

[miltonyorkcastle]

Months is too long.

And maybe this is the fundamental viewpoint difference. It takes days, months, years, to make a good story, and longer than that to follow the life of a really fleshed-out character. How much more so a fleshed-out world? It is entirely acceptable to me for it to take months to develop an aspect of the world. It is acceptable to me for it to take months to create the stories involving our characters.

NWN is just a construct that grants us a visual and interactive aid to compliment our story creation. The idea is for the MMO to provide an even better construct than NWN, plus allow an outlet for people that are just wanting to play a video game rather than create character and story.

The bottom line is that I'm not still hanging around Layo to play a video game. I'm here to create meaningful stories. And that takes time. A lot of time.

The community that enjoys this aspect of Layo will always be small compared to those that are more interested in the video-game aspect, and I'm okay with that.

[Gulnyr]

Why should everything be established before the characters get to act?  Wouldn't allowing the actions of characters help determine the final result be an awesome way for those characters to help shape the world?  

That's why months is too long to wait for answers.  Get things started quickly with the basics and let our actions in-game help determine that fleshed out world.  Don't build it and then show us the walls.  Making it and then letting us play in it helps make it just a video game rather than a world where our characters' actions matter.  Less choice.  Less influence.

It'll take months in the end, sure, but at least we will all be helping rather than having the players in the dark for all those months.

[EdTheKet]

While I can see where you are coming from, I beg to differ and very much so.
 
 
 First and foremost, character development is the responsibility of the player.
 
 GMs can give options, make suggestions or give a general sense of potential directions, but the actual responsibilty resides firmly in the hands of the player.
 
 You have indicated earlier this year that you would like to hear some ideas for further development of Storold. The GM team has brainstormed and gave you 5 options to pursue. These were in addition to the ones that were already open to you before (being the investigation of Storold's claims of corruption in the church and the pursuit of a certain creature in the Pits at the request of a certain general).
 
 A bit later you came with a few options yourself, but did not request a CDQ to continue either with the ones offered by us, or the ones you came up with yourself.
 
 So while I can see why you're frustrated, I disagree with the "options offered" part. We've given you options, you gave some options, but as I said, character development is the responsibility of the player, so it rests in your hands, whichever route you wish to pursue.
 
 And as for the whole discussion of me being the hold up, I don't believe that is true. From the latest group of new GMs, I've had discussions about series/events and I don't think there were any big holdups. Same for the ones that have been on the team for ages.
 
 I freely admit that sometimes I overlook something, but then I always get a reminder PM (ask mix for example ) and I get on it.
 
 
 As for the link Gulnyr linked to and stated he's been waiting for months for an answer, I find that a bit of an unfair thing to do.
 If something drops off the radar, bump it, or remind the team/me via a PM. We're not here to make people wait intentionally and then hope that if we wait long enough they'll forget and the question will go away.

[Gulnyr]

I'm really trying not to be negative because I really do love this world, but you've just helped make my point.  So much goes by you, Ed, that it just comes and goes to be forgotten.  That's not working.  Someone else needs to take charge of a lot of it.

I don't think I was being unfair.  If you say, essentially, "Something's on the way; keep an eye out;" why is it my (or anyone else's) responsibility to remind you?  If there is too much to do and remember, share some responsibility.  No one will think less of you.

And that link is not what I have been waiting seven months to hear about, though I have heard that isn't necessarily a blockage on your part.  It does involve a lack of time and focus on NWN, though.

[EdTheKet]

I'm really trying not to be negative because I really do love this world, but you've just helped make my point. So much goes by you, Ed, that it just comes and goes to be forgotten. That's not working. Someone else needs to take charge of a lot of it.

I know I may have helped you make your point, at least partially
 
 The cold hard truth of the matter is having the resources to do it (and no, there will be no divergent lore from NWN/MMO).
 
 
 

I don't think I was being unfair. If you say, essentially, "Something's on the way; keep an eye out;" why is it my (or anyone else's) responsibility to remind you? If there is too much to do and remember, share some responsibility. No one will think less of you.

Not your responsibility, no, but nonetheless, the phenomenon known as *bump* is a commonly accepted one on forums if things seem to take too long.
 In my opinion it's perfectly fine to bump something we've said we'd come back to but for which a week has passed.
 
 

And that link is not what I have been waiting seven months to hear about, though I have heard that isn't necessarily a blockage on your part. It does involve a lack of time and focus on NWN, though.

Yes, because our main focus is the MMO and Runes, no denying that. Tens of thousands of dollars have gone into NWN, and it's not something that will ever bring in money, we're barely breaking even on server costs now with the donations. Hence the change of focus.

[Gulnyr]

Grr.

I'm not talking about decoupling.  I'm talking about the fact that too many things slip by.  If so many things slip by you, surely someone else should pick up the less important parts, like NWN.

Your comment from that link - "Watch this space" - suggests something in the works, probably involving others, meaning it was some sort of priority and that something was being done.  Apparently not, though, else it would not have been forgotten.  The chance that everyone would forget something they were working on seems very, very slim.

I'm not complaining about the focus on the MMO.  That's perfectly reasonable, and I never once said otherwise.  If we're going to talk about fairness, though, I don't think it's fair to the faithful players to leave no one to focus on NWN matters so that things don't pile up and become forgotten among all the MMO work.  Is it really too much to ask that someone be focused on NWN?  I would have jumped all over such a position months ago if I could, but life isn't giving me the opportunity for that right now.

[Falonthas]

i know i havent done very much of late do to being swamped with work, but just a suggestion would be for the Loremaster to take on an apprentice?

someone who is versed in the Lore as much as Ed, though not able to make major altering decisions, could make minor calls in regards to a question.

i recall reading something a long time ago about GM's making the call, if it was a simple action not affecting global scale, or a temporary affect of sort in a localized area,
 and then perhaps a minor scale event or consequence being within the apprentices aspices,
while still the major mind blowing super world altering consequences be still tossed at Ed or Leanthar

now i know most resources are being pushed at the MMO and Runes, and wanting to keep all in sync is important, but perhaps this idea of an apprentice Ed could easy the burden some.

[Anamnesis]

If I may suggest that anytime I have sent Ed or Dorg a question, they have been always been responded to in less than a day, usually within hours if not sooner. I would like to also offer that it is the responsibility of the player to bring their own character alive aside from the CDQ's and WLDQ's, and the DM's.
 
 For 27 Levels of Elohanna, I have not requested a CDQ yet if you ask just about anyone on the server, she has made her mark dramatically in the community.
 
 With the help of friends, I have found a way to develop my character, as not only a reknowned scribe, enchanter, cook, jeweler, instructor, Headmistress of the Tower Academy at one point, and even partnership with other players to help their character to develop beyond what any one character can do alone.
 
 It has been with the help of the DM's clarification of Lore, that Elly has been successfully allowed to persue the path of Cleric of Aeridin.
 
 Personally speaking if you were to ask anyone to assist Ed, Dorg, L or Milt,  beyond what they have already accomplished, they would not have nearly the same insight into the way they intend Layo to develop, nor the extensive knowledge of the universe. They have been here from the beginning and most of anyone else, would simply be short sighted in their interpretation. They also know how they wish this world we have to meld with the new world coming.
 
 Still the point of this entire thread is that Players don't feel that they have the same options as there used to be, and I say to that.. Bah humbug.. You make your world through Character Developement, by thinking outside the box not simply because a DM says so. You became WL's because you successfully completed your trial towards that end. Try it from the point of view of the PC's who are not WL's who hardly see the WL's, try interacting more with your community. Story and Jennara are two of the few that actually does and are probably the best known because of it. Try being a World Leader and helping the other Players to find their own niche in the world and find a direction to help the players flourish. Is it about the story or about the XP?
 
 If you think your character has reached the peak of what they can do through feats, there still has to be a passion driving your character or is it the players quest for xp that has driven you, and not truly character development.
 
 Just a couple of thoughts of my own and not meant to be an attack but I do think the team is doing a fine job and aside from a few snaffus that can be expected, I have no complaints.

[Makashi]

So far from being a WL I have enjoyed it, I have been able to do things that previously G'ork couldn't do, access to information from a few more sources, it all helps towards roleplay I really enjoy going through with others.

But to do stuff like this you have to let the GMs know what your character is doing, so they can give you feedback on the options/ideas you give them. It does overall make the world seem more in depth, and detailed, and even tailored to your characters story.

I stopped playing for a while due to being busy, and also due to the fact that there was not much going on for G'ork or my other characters, but right now theres been plenty going on, and thats what makes me log back on, to continue g'ork's own personal quest etc.

It doesn't even have to be a WL these days that can have impact, as many GMs state in their quests, actions have consequences.

I agree with Storold there was a point where WL did seem...all powerful, and most of them did have extremely high status', but I am glad honestly the gap has gone done a huge amount. Players are capable of doing just as much as a WL, it's just a WL has gone through a lot more of a personal journey to get where they are.

But getting back to Storold's point - You can do something with your status, you just need to prod the GMs with ideas for consideration or even asking them if they have any jobs for you, like I actually did yesterday infact.

And in regards to the things you find out about that become inevitable, well it's probably not you that failed, but some one else along the way. And if it was you, tough luck

[Ravemore]

LOL.. G'ork go find Nihar.... he has plenty of work for you.

[Gulnyr]

Thank you, Anamnesis.  I need to apologize first, though, because I'm going to pick a piece out that gets to the dark heart of a potential problem.

... they would not have nearly the same insight into the way they intend Layo to develop, nor the extensive knowledge of the universe. They have been here from the beginning and most of anyone else, would simply be short sighted in their interpretation. They also know how they wish this world we have to meld with the new world coming.

Isn't one of the best parts of Layonara that our characters help shape the future of the world?  If the world is to develop only as L and Ed (and whoever else forms the core decision-makers) see fit, to match their visions alone, to be as they wish to interpret it, to meld into whatever the starting conditions of the MMO are to be, then we, merely players, are simply being strung along with the illusion of changing the world.  The conclusion would already be determined, perhaps not on the small scale, but surely in the big picture.

That's what I was getting at before.  The more the large scale is established, the less we can alter the large scale.  Our scope of change becomes smaller and smaller.  The great deeds of today are, then, the shadows of the commonplace of yesterday.  The past had grander possibilities.

Besides that, I don't dispute that it's a player's responsibility to advance his own character.  I don't know anything about what Pibe has been trying to do with Storold and I'm not going to try to guess.  I can only talk about my own experiences.

I try to do all I can with Jennara alone or with other PCs.  We have been told, many times, that we can't determine NPC actions and reactions.  Some things that Jennara deals with are essentially nothing but NPCs or can't be completed without NPC input, whether it be church business (with Reus or her Unit Captains and Knights or whoever), or business with Queen Mouring and Echo, or plans against the Cult, or helping Rohden or Highpass or wherever.  Sometimes, there's nothing I can do without DM attention.  I try not to ask often, but when I do ask, I appreciate a timely response.  I'm easy, though.  If an answer takes a couple of weeks, I'll be antsy but it's cool.  A month for something potentially hairy is cool.  But three months, or five, or seven?  Something has gone very wrong.  It's not always that bad, of course, but when a blockage is spotted it doesn't make sense not to clear it.  If it takes so long for MMO workers to answer NWN questions, then something needs to be done.  When DMs can't make the call, there needs to be someone focused on NWN with the authority to do so, sooner rather than later.

Hooray for the future and hooray for the MMO, but I don't think we faithful players keeping the love alive deserve to be left behind.  I know we don't generate money (I'm sorry I'm poor), but if it's all about money now, I guess I'm done.  Maybe I've been living a fantasy thinking it's about the world, in whatever incarnation.

[Dezza]

In an ideal world there are enough Quest GM's to process the vast amount of requests we get to take care of for players across every timezone.

We used to have dedicated GM's with the power to create world altering events. Layo is at a stage were the LORE os so vast and detailed it is incredibly more time intensive (if you are going to do it right) to process requests for players.

Nowadays many players have been here for some time and want to do great and grand things so to process their requests requires ever greater consideration and planning and has consequences to other areas of LORE as well. So many things need to be considered that often it seems just so big a task that GM's just dont want to go there. Thats sad for players but its a reality. Normally in those instances if its me I offer alternatives of things that we can realistically achieve.

Lets face it sometimes we just can't do everything people want to do. Sometimes players need to bite the bullet and accept what's offered and say thanks for that maybe next time we can do this....

I get requests regularly to do things that are increasingly more complex and have increasingly more impact on the world as a whole that I struggle with to put into context and even determine if they are realistically possible, then there is the classic argument of comparing whats wanted to real world ideas or making comparisons in game between whats feasible and whats not feasible.  

I can honestly tell you this..There are things I would love to say yes to players for every day but they are either a) so complex in their enacting Im reluctant due to time restraints to touch, b) Pushing the boundaries of what is fair to other players, c) Impinges on other players fun on Layo, d) Borders on the preposterous, e) Is reasonable but was something they could Rp out ic themselves and f) Perfectly reasonable and able to be accomplished with relative ease.

Now I ask you...which one of those am I going to want to approach first? Can you see, with so few in game Quest GM's why things have changed? It's not ideal, no...but its the way things stand at the moment. WE need to adapt and change to suit the environment we have. If we don't, might as well tell Ed or Onest8 to flick the switch and turn the servers off altogether. Because we make the best of what we got or no bother having it at all.