The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => Roleplaying => Topic started by: Pibemanden on June 28, 2010, 10:11:21 am
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So now that I have played for quite a few years I have seen a rather strange tendency over the years. Seemingly the player get less and less influence on the world, the WLs(/epics) in particular.
Back in the day epics were really really epic, I mean they were the leaders of their churchs, almost avatars of their gods, dragons, you name it...
Now it is all about handing XP out to people who are doing a great job in the gameworld... Not that this is bad for anyone, however the change is...
I agree that there was some point in Layonara history where there were too huge a gap between what "normal players" and WL's could do. But right now no one can do anything which seems even more silly than someone can do something.
Maybe it is just me, but besides one event that took place a couple of years ago I have been unable to do -anything- what so ever to affect the gameworld. I mean really, it has even gone to the point where even if I don't do something things will happen anyway. So now playing is more like getting told, oh you know this thing will happen in the future, you don't have to do anything it will happen no matter what.
((What I have tried so far:
Contacting GMs
Involving other players
RPing IG
Answering IC forum posts))
Well alright, if that is the case why even play, because one of the reasons I really liked playing here was that every action has consequences.. Well that is cool, as long as you can actually do something that matters in the first place.
Instead I feel stuck in a place where GM's can make a character ten times stronger than mine and with a hundred times the options while having their morning coffee(At least it feels that way to me, I have no idea how NPCs are approved, but just the fact that Storold doesn't actually have a rank as such makes it very easy to make something better.). So all you are left with is following the arrows on the floor and kill the occasional monster in your way, or of course join the eternal grind towards having all upgrades on all your gear and watch your XP counter tick up towards infinity.
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Maybe it is just me, but besides one event that took place a couple of years ago I have been unable to do -anything- what so ever to affect the gameworld.
Could you expand on why you don't think you can affect the gameworld? I ask because I don't play a WL, yet I feel like Steel has and continues to affect the world. Moreover, I strive to involve others and give more players the opportunity to leave a mark on the world in their own way or as part of Steel's adventures. As a WL, you potentially have more resources available than my non-WL character, so I'm unclear as to why you would feel stifled.
I mean really, it has even gone to the point where even if I don't do something things will happen anyway. So now playing is more like getting told, oh you know this thing will happen in the future, you don't have to do anything it will happen no matter what.
Well, of course. That is, the world is designed to be living and breathing regardless of the PCs with which we populate it. If we do nothing, stuff happens; if we do something, stuff happens. Some events we can change or prevent, and other things we can't prevent, but we can add our own mark to it.
Storold is one of the most well known PCs OOC, and IC he is recognized all over Mistone, as well as various other regions around the world. If he wants to meet with nobility, what's stopping him? If he wants to perform magical experiments, what's stopping him? If he wants to start a holy war against Rael for stifling the use of the Al'Noth, what's stopping him?
Of course, nothing happens overnight, and most plans take IG and RL years to accomplish, but that's part of story-creation and the fact that we all have RLs. Steel has spent IG decades (more than fifty years) working his plots with Fisterion and the Cult, as well as other hidden schemes and ventures. I know plenty others doing the same thing, though I will only speak from my own PC's experience.
If you need help fleshing out an idea, or just considering options, what is and isn't feasible, etc, send me a PM, or post in the WL forums for feedback. I bet the other WLs would be more than happy to jump on the bandwagon of some hair-brained scheme, and the rest might appreciate a well thought-out approach. ;)
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It's not easy working towards change. You definitely need to form some sort of coalition of players if you're looking to make a really big impact, even if you're a WL. Speaking from experience, even then you can fail.. miserably, heheh.
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Way back, things were a lot looser. DMs were able and willing to make calls on the fly and few of the decisions were reversed, at least as I remember. There wasn't as much of an idea of Layonara as a very specific thing then, though.
Now, we have all the great lore and the world is its own thing, which is pretty cool. The DMs are less willing to make immediate decisions, though, sending everything back to Ed. Everything is tight and regulated, which would be fine if we could get timely answers. But we don't. Remember [post=1555092]this[/post]? Still nothing. I've personally been waiting over seven months for an answer to one question.
And I think that's where a lot of the problem comes from today - established lore and the bottleneck for answers. With established lore now, and all the work that has gone into writing it to establish a foundation for the MMO, more and more things aren't allowed to change. DMs are afraid to make calls because they may overstep some line and have to go back and correct (retcon) their quests, and that doesn't make anyone happy in the end. So more and more of everything gets shoveled to Ed for answers, and that just makes a bigger and bigger backlog that makes things feel even worse.
So I can't help agreeing with Pibe. It's much harder to make changes now than it used to be, either because areas of lore are cut off from change by fiat or by lack of people with authority to give answers. I actually feel bad for up-and-coming characters because it seems like they will never have the opportunities to do something as big as Jennara did. During Jennara's work for Rohden, I had contact all the time. If a week went by without an answer, something was very wrong. Now we have fewer players and longer waits. That is broken.
What would help so much is what has already been mentioned before - decouple NWN and the MMO. Let someone else (or someones else, to avoid overload) handle NWN operations and a slightly divergent lore here while Ed handles the official lore for the MMO. Even if DMs couldn't make huge calls on their own, having someone ready for questions just for NWN would speed up the turn-around, at least, so people wouldn't wait ages for answers. It would at least feel like we were able to get something done in our plans for making impact on the world.
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What would help so much is what has already been mentioned before - decouple NWN and the MMO. Let someone else (or someones else, to avoid overload) handle NWN operations and a slightly divergent lore here while Ed handles the official lore for the MMO. Even if DMs couldn't make huge calls on their own, having someone ready for questions just for NWN would speed up the turn-around, at least, so people wouldn't wait ages for answers. It would at least feel like we were able to get something done in our plans for making impact on the world.
Already proposed that and Ed was adamant that it wouldn't happen. But I'm still hopeful that in some part it will, to take some work load off his back and smooth things out for us.
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And I think that's where a lot of the problem comes from today - established lore and the bottleneck for answers. With established lore now, and all the work that has gone into writing it to establish a foundation for the MMO, more and more things aren't allowed to change. DMs are afraid to make calls because they may overstep some line and have to go back and correct (retcon) their quests, and that doesn't make anyone happy in the end. So more and more of everything gets shoveled to Ed for answers, and that just makes a bigger and bigger backlog that makes things feel even worse.
I can honestly say this has been addressed by the Team, meaning that making room for characters to change the world and for GMs to devise world-altering quests without there being some massive-long wait for approval is something on which we're focusing.
I actually feel bad for up-and-coming characters because it seems like they will never have the opportunities to do something as big as Jennara did.
I wholeheartedly disagree with the sentiment that up-and-coming characters can't do something "as big" as Jennara. I'm sorry you feel that way, but the opportunity is still there, if you want to do it.
During Jennara's work for Rohden, I had contact all the time. If a week went by without an answer, something was very wrong. Now we have fewer players and longer waits. That is broken.
This is something that bothers me as well, not having the GM resources for the player-base. It's why I push for more GMs all the time. But "quality over quantity" will always be the motto here with regard to adding team members. So, basically, it's not because the lore questions can't be answered, but because we have a shortage of GM resources. I think with the recent GM additions, however, we're addressing this issue as well.
Also, note that most questions are answered within a day or two. There are very few questions out of the thousands put to the Team that take longer to answer or perhaps still remain unanswered. Again, I don't see the few unanswered questions as as a "lore is too rigid" issue, but rather a GM resource issue. Some things take time to discuss, or to write-up, and we simply may not have the time/manpower to do the things necessary to answer a given question in the way it needs to be answered. And this would not change if we decided to split the lore between the MMO and NWN. In fact, the load would get heavier for those that tried to maintain an NWN-only lore, because I for one would cease to work on NWN at all if the stories we make now would cease to affect the Layo of the future. That's the only thing that keeps me tied to the NWN version of Layo--that new players and old can, believe it or not, leave a mark that will last through to the future of Layonara.
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I wish I could believe things are still good, but I don't and I can't make myself believe it. I still love the place. I want to believe it. I feel like we're not really working hard to keep the place alive as much as just keeping its corpse from getting cold.
Yes, the time issue is the problem. I'm not denying the effort it takes. But someone should have NWN first for those trying so hard here. Yes, the MMO is awesome and needs attention, but those focused there should not be the immediate arbiters for here. No question should go unanswered. Months is too long.
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All along I have hoped that NWN Layo would decouple from the MMO and even have a chance to continue after the MMO comes out.
They are going to be very different worlds, yes based on the same lore and maps and even have some of the same names about as NPCs (since PC carry over would be highly unfair unless all PCs can carry over) but after that they will be very different.
I like the world as it is, I am sure I will also like the MMO but will be something new with a familiar feel, so I would also like to have the current world to play in as well. And I would like to have some folks to "run the show" over here as well.
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Months is too long.
And maybe this is the fundamental viewpoint difference. It takes days, months, years, to make a good story, and longer than that to follow the life of a really fleshed-out character. How much more so a fleshed-out world? It is entirely acceptable to me for it to take months to develop an aspect of the world. It is acceptable to me for it to take months to create the stories involving our characters.
NWN is just a construct that grants us a visual and interactive aid to compliment our story creation. The idea is for the MMO to provide an even better construct than NWN, plus allow an outlet for people that are just wanting to play a video game rather than create character and story.
The bottom line is that I'm not still hanging around Layo to play a video game. I'm here to create meaningful stories. And that takes time. A lot of time.
The community that enjoys this aspect of Layo will always be small compared to those that are more interested in the video-game aspect, and I'm okay with that.
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Why should everything be established before the characters get to act? Wouldn't allowing the actions of characters help determine the final result be an awesome way for those characters to help shape the world?
That's why months is too long to wait for answers. Get things started quickly with the basics and let our actions in-game help determine that fleshed out world. Don't build it and then show us the walls. Making it and then letting us play in it helps make it just a video game rather than a world where our characters' actions matter. Less choice. Less influence.
It'll take months in the end, sure, but at least we will all be helping rather than having the players in the dark for all those months.
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While I can see where you are coming from, I beg to differ and very much so.
First and foremost, character development is the responsibility of the player.
GMs can give options, make suggestions or give a general sense of potential directions, but the actual responsibilty resides firmly in the hands of the player.
You have indicated earlier this year that you would like to hear some ideas for further development of Storold. The GM team has brainstormed and gave you 5 options to pursue. These were in addition to the ones that were already open to you before (being the investigation of Storold's claims of corruption in the church and the pursuit of a certain creature in the Pits at the request of a certain general).
A bit later you came with a few options yourself, but did not request a CDQ to continue either with the ones offered by us, or the ones you came up with yourself.
So while I can see why you're frustrated, I disagree with the "options offered" part. We've given you options, you gave some options, but as I said, character development is the responsibility of the player, so it rests in your hands, whichever route you wish to pursue.
And as for the whole discussion of me being the hold up, I don't believe that is true. From the latest group of new GMs, I've had discussions about series/events and I don't think there were any big holdups. Same for the ones that have been on the team for ages.
I freely admit that sometimes I overlook something, but then I always get a reminder PM (ask mix for example :) ) and I get on it.
As for the link Gulnyr linked to and stated he's been waiting for months for an answer, I find that a bit of an unfair thing to do.
If something drops off the radar, bump it, or remind the team/me via a PM. We're not here to make people wait intentionally and then hope that if we wait long enough they'll forget and the question will go away.
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I'm really trying not to be negative because I really do love this world, but you've just helped make my point. So much goes by you, Ed, that it just comes and goes to be forgotten. That's not working. Someone else needs to take charge of a lot of it.
I don't think I was being unfair. If you say, essentially, "Something's on the way; keep an eye out;" why is it my (or anyone else's) responsibility to remind you? If there is too much to do and remember, share some responsibility. No one will think less of you.
And that link is not what I have been waiting seven months to hear about, though I have heard that isn't necessarily a blockage on your part. It does involve a lack of time and focus on NWN, though.
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I'm really trying not to be negative because I really do love this world, but you've just helped make my point. So much goes by you, Ed, that it just comes and goes to be forgotten. That's not working. Someone else needs to take charge of a lot of it.
I know I may have helped you make your point, at least partially :)
The cold hard truth of the matter is having the resources to do it (and no, there will be no divergent lore from NWN/MMO).
I don't think I was being unfair. If you say, essentially, "Something's on the way; keep an eye out;" why is it my (or anyone else's) responsibility to remind you? If there is too much to do and remember, share some responsibility. No one will think less of you.
Not your responsibility, no, but nonetheless, the phenomenon known as *bump* is a commonly accepted one on forums if things seem to take too long.
In my opinion it's perfectly fine to bump something we've said we'd come back to but for which a week has passed.
And that link is not what I have been waiting seven months to hear about, though I have heard that isn't necessarily a blockage on your part. It does involve a lack of time and focus on NWN, though.
Yes, because our main focus is the MMO and Runes, no denying that. Tens of thousands of dollars have gone into NWN, and it's not something that will ever bring in money, we're barely breaking even on server costs now with the donations. Hence the change of focus.
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Grr.
I'm not talking about decoupling. I'm talking about the fact that too many things slip by. If so many things slip by you, surely someone else should pick up the less important parts, like NWN.
Your comment from that link - "Watch this space" - suggests something in the works, probably involving others, meaning it was some sort of priority and that something was being done. Apparently not, though, else it would not have been forgotten. The chance that everyone would forget something they were working on seems very, very slim.
I'm not complaining about the focus on the MMO. That's perfectly reasonable, and I never once said otherwise. If we're going to talk about fairness, though, I don't think it's fair to the faithful players to leave no one to focus on NWN matters so that things don't pile up and become forgotten among all the MMO work. Is it really too much to ask that someone be focused on NWN? I would have jumped all over such a position months ago if I could, but life isn't giving me the opportunity for that right now.
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i know i havent done very much of late do to being swamped with work, but just a suggestion would be for the Loremaster to take on an apprentice?
someone who is versed in the Lore as much as Ed, though not able to make major altering decisions, could make minor calls in regards to a question.
i recall reading something a long time ago about GM's making the call, if it was a simple action not affecting global scale, or a temporary affect of sort in a localized area,
and then perhaps a minor scale event or consequence being within the apprentices aspices,
while still the major mind blowing super world altering consequences be still tossed at Ed or Leanthar
now i know most resources are being pushed at the MMO and Runes, and wanting to keep all in sync is important, but perhaps this idea of an apprentice Ed could easy the burden some.
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If I may suggest that anytime I have sent Ed or Dorg a question, they have been always been responded to in less than a day, usually within hours if not sooner. I would like to also offer that it is the responsibility of the player to bring their own character alive aside from the CDQ's and WLDQ's, and the DM's.
For 27 Levels of Elohanna, I have not requested a CDQ yet if you ask just about anyone on the server, she has made her mark dramatically in the community.
With the help of friends, I have found a way to develop my character, as not only a reknowned scribe, enchanter, cook, jeweler, instructor, Headmistress of the Tower Academy at one point, and even partnership with other players to help their character to develop beyond what any one character can do alone.
It has been with the help of the DM's clarification of Lore, that Elly has been successfully allowed to persue the path of Cleric of Aeridin.
Personally speaking if you were to ask anyone to assist Ed, Dorg, L or Milt, beyond what they have already accomplished, they would not have nearly the same insight into the way they intend Layo to develop, nor the extensive knowledge of the universe. They have been here from the beginning and most of anyone else, would simply be short sighted in their interpretation. They also know how they wish this world we have to meld with the new world coming.
Still the point of this entire thread is that Players don't feel that they have the same options as there used to be, and I say to that.. Bah humbug.. You make your world through Character Developement, by thinking outside the box not simply because a DM says so. You became WL's because you successfully completed your trial towards that end. Try it from the point of view of the PC's who are not WL's who hardly see the WL's, try interacting more with your community. Story and Jennara are two of the few that actually does and are probably the best known because of it. Try being a World Leader and helping the other Players to find their own niche in the world and find a direction to help the players flourish. Is it about the story or about the XP?
If you think your character has reached the peak of what they can do through feats, there still has to be a passion driving your character or is it the players quest for xp that has driven you, and not truly character development.
Just a couple of thoughts of my own and not meant to be an attack but I do think the team is doing a fine job and aside from a few snaffus that can be expected, I have no complaints.
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So far from being a WL I have enjoyed it, I have been able to do things that previously G'ork couldn't do, access to information from a few more sources, it all helps towards roleplay I really enjoy going through with others.
But to do stuff like this you have to let the GMs know what your character is doing, so they can give you feedback on the options/ideas you give them. It does overall make the world seem more in depth, and detailed, and even tailored to your characters story.
I stopped playing for a while due to being busy, and also due to the fact that there was not much going on for G'ork or my other characters, but right now theres been plenty going on, and thats what makes me log back on, to continue g'ork's own personal quest etc.
It doesn't even have to be a WL these days that can have impact, as many GMs state in their quests, actions have consequences.
I agree with Storold there was a point where WL did seem...all powerful, and most of them did have extremely high status', but I am glad honestly the gap has gone done a huge amount. Players are capable of doing just as much as a WL, it's just a WL has gone through a lot more of a personal journey to get where they are.
But getting back to Storold's point - You can do something with your status, you just need to prod the GMs with ideas for consideration or even asking them if they have any jobs for you, like I actually did yesterday infact.
And in regards to the things you find out about that become inevitable, well it's probably not you that failed, but some one else along the way. And if it was you, tough luck ;)
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LOL.. G'ork go find Nihar.... he has plenty of work for you. ;)
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Thank you, Anamnesis. I need to apologize first, though, because I'm going to pick a piece out that gets to the dark heart of a potential problem.
... they would not have nearly the same insight into the way they intend Layo to develop, nor the extensive knowledge of the universe. They have been here from the beginning and most of anyone else, would simply be short sighted in their interpretation. They also know how they wish this world we have to meld with the new world coming.
Isn't one of the best parts of Layonara that our characters help shape the future of the world? If the world is to develop only as L and Ed (and whoever else forms the core decision-makers) see fit, to match their visions alone, to be as they wish to interpret it, to meld into whatever the starting conditions of the MMO are to be, then we, merely players, are simply being strung along with the illusion of changing the world. The conclusion would already be determined, perhaps not on the small scale, but surely in the big picture.
That's what I was getting at before. The more the large scale is established, the less we can alter the large scale. Our scope of change becomes smaller and smaller. The great deeds of today are, then, the shadows of the commonplace of yesterday. The past had grander possibilities.
Besides that, I don't dispute that it's a player's responsibility to advance his own character. I don't know anything about what Pibe has been trying to do with Storold and I'm not going to try to guess. I can only talk about my own experiences.
I try to do all I can with Jennara alone or with other PCs. We have been told, many times, that we can't determine NPC actions and reactions. Some things that Jennara deals with are essentially nothing but NPCs or can't be completed without NPC input, whether it be church business (with Reus or her Unit Captains and Knights or whoever), or business with Queen Mouring and Echo, or plans against the Cult, or helping Rohden or Highpass or wherever. Sometimes, there's nothing I can do without DM attention. I try not to ask often, but when I do ask, I appreciate a timely response. I'm easy, though. If an answer takes a couple of weeks, I'll be antsy but it's cool. A month for something potentially hairy is cool. But three months, or five, or seven? Something has gone very wrong. It's not always that bad, of course, but when a blockage is spotted it doesn't make sense not to clear it. If it takes so long for MMO workers to answer NWN questions, then something needs to be done. When DMs can't make the call, there needs to be someone focused on NWN with the authority to do so, sooner rather than later.
Hooray for the future and hooray for the MMO, but I don't think we faithful players keeping the love alive deserve to be left behind. I know we don't generate money (I'm sorry I'm poor), but if it's all about money now, I guess I'm done. Maybe I've been living a fantasy thinking it's about the world, in whatever incarnation.
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In an ideal world there are enough Quest GM's to process the vast amount of requests we get to take care of for players across every timezone.
We used to have dedicated GM's with the power to create world altering events. Layo is at a stage were the LORE os so vast and detailed it is incredibly more time intensive (if you are going to do it right) to process requests for players.
Nowadays many players have been here for some time and want to do great and grand things so to process their requests requires ever greater consideration and planning and has consequences to other areas of LORE as well. So many things need to be considered that often it seems just so big a task that GM's just dont want to go there. Thats sad for players but its a reality. Normally in those instances if its me I offer alternatives of things that we can realistically achieve.
Lets face it sometimes we just can't do everything people want to do. Sometimes players need to bite the bullet and accept what's offered and say thanks for that maybe next time we can do this....
I get requests regularly to do things that are increasingly more complex and have increasingly more impact on the world as a whole that I struggle with to put into context and even determine if they are realistically possible, then there is the classic argument of comparing whats wanted to real world ideas or making comparisons in game between whats feasible and whats not feasible.
I can honestly tell you this..There are things I would love to say yes to players for every day but they are either a) so complex in their enacting Im reluctant due to time restraints to touch, b) Pushing the boundaries of what is fair to other players, c) Impinges on other players fun on Layo, d) Borders on the preposterous, e) Is reasonable but was something they could Rp out ic themselves and f) Perfectly reasonable and able to be accomplished with relative ease.
Now I ask you...which one of those am I going to want to approach first? Can you see, with so few in game Quest GM's why things have changed? It's not ideal, no...but its the way things stand at the moment. WE need to adapt and change to suit the environment we have. If we don't, might as well tell Ed or Onest8 to flick the switch and turn the servers off altogether. Because we make the best of what we got or no bother having it at all.
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Thanks, Dezza.
I can honestly tell you this..There are things I would love to say yes to players for every day but they are either a) so complex in their enacting Im reluctant due to time restraints to touch, b) Pushing the boundaries of what is fair to other players, c) Impinges on other players fun on Layo, d) Borders on the preposterous, e) Is reasonable but was something they could Rp out ic themselves and f) Perfectly reasonable and able to be accomplished with relative ease.
Do you tell the players so? For example, do you reply to an especially complex idea, "Hey, nice thinking but you may be stretching things for the resources we've got." Maybe ask them to cut back, or even offer an idea or two if you're feeling it?
That's important because it's a different experience to get a negative response - at least it's a response. I know I'm not the only one who doesn't get answers, and being left without answers is worse than being told 'no.' If there's a 'no' given, there's a reason given, too, so there is often still some possibility. No answer at all is just the death of the idea.
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Obviously I have not been terribly involved in Layo development and plots in my four years of playing, but I'll give my opinion none the less. I think the team has done a wonderful job at keeping NWN Layo alive and kicking. Specifically I'd like to thank Dorg for all he does. NWN would not be alive today if it were not for his work in my opinion. Ideally there would be more interaction from the core team, but given their focus I think it makes sense. I think everyone would agree that we have a very simple problem. There are not enough resources available to keep both the MMO and NWN to the standards we would all like. As you can probably guess, there is also a very simple answer: pull the plug on NWN Layo. Hopefully, we can all agree that the future of Layo is the MMO. NWN is diverting precious resources from it.
I for one would not know what to do with what little free time I have without NWN Layo, but I would survive and return if the MMO is able to capture that same spirit that Gulnyr refered to: The ability for the player to have substantial impact on the world and its history. That is Layo's biggest differentiator and is a must in the MMO.
Having helped build successful and unsuccessful businesses for almost 20 years, I can tell you the one biggest reason for failure is the inability to stay focused and develop an identity.
In my humble opinion, the team should drop everything and focus on the MMO. As painful as that might be for us players, it is the best course if Layo ever wants to be a viable business.
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NWN has been Layo's Identity for what... 7-8 years? Runes is a nice way to get some notice, but if NWN folds up, I don't think the MMO has any legs to stand on, other then some loyal fans clinging to some hopes and promises.
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NWN has been Layo's Identity for what... 7-8 years? Runes is a nice way to get some notice, but if NWN folds up, I don't think the MMO has any legs to stand on, other then some loyal fans clinging to some hopes and promises.
Don't disagree. Layo NWN was built out of labor of love, not as a business. If Layonara wants to be business, they need to move to another platform. However, if they want to be a hobby, then drop the MMO. I'm not saying either is better, but I certainly believe if they have any chance at being a business, NWN Layo will need to come to an end unfortunately.
Again just my opinion.
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I for one disagree with the original post.
Maybe it's beacause in the 6-8 years (god I can't remember how long it's been now, possibly more) I've focused on making evil/dark aligned characters that I've gotten too used to being alone and forgotten. Was I upset by this...hell no. I found others like myself and we stuck together, worked hard and eventually got what we deserved. It made it all the more worth it having put the effort in and I can't thank the team enough for rewarding us with the beautiful temple to name one of them.
Someone raised a thread once a while back about characters under lvl 20 that are epic in their own right. i was very pleased to see that my old character made it in the group, together with my dark comrads. You see it's not about having GM's alter the world becuase your character is lvl 30+ and should be god-like becuase you're a WL. It's more about the influence you have on others around you that is WL not the title and level of the char.
As far as being told what to do these days, mate, we've been told 'no' almost all the time. Did it stop us...No. We kept at it and eventually it paid off. One example is the recent approval of Champions of Corath, Pyrtechon, Baerun...etc. We worked on this for a long time. If the team acted on every whim from a high level character then it wouldn't be balanced. And I won't go into the resources since MYC, ED & Dezza summed it up perfectly.
As mentioned I've been around for a very long time and I've yet to crack lvl 20. It was only until the last 12 months that things are starting to happen for us Corathites. I'm also finially doing my first WL. I don't anticipate I'll ever make it past lvl 30 nor do I expect that I'll run the temple, tilt the balance of light and dark, reach lichedom or sip tea with Corath himself. As a WL (if i pass) i only expect to influence the people around me, mainly to hate me most of the time, otherwise assist guiding other evil chacaters who want to make waves. I'm sorry but if I was to expect that being WL means I'm god-like and deserve more than the next man who puts a lot of effort in RP that would be simply selfish.
Cheers,
Polak76
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That is kind of the point of moving on from NWN, though - one of the goals is to use Layonara as a campaign setting. Leave NWN in the hands of those that love it and allow them to use Layonara as a campaign setting like a bunch of dudes around a gaming table, and focus completely on the MMO. If you like any of what they do with it, all the DMs have to sign the papers so you can pick and choose what you like. If you don't like it, you don't use it. NWN is ahead of the MMO's timeline already, anyway, you can see it from the only times referenced in the writeups and the expected lifespans of rulers.
Skipped long post to say that.
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Short answer....Yes....but then sometimes Im so gummed up with PM's that it takes time to get back to people..Not ideal again...but...I do...
I question why you even need to ask this question unless you personally feel that this does not happen?
Thanks, Dezza.
Do you tell the players so? For example, do you reply to an especially complex idea, "Hey, nice thinking but you may be stretching things for the resources we've got." Maybe ask them to cut back, or even offer an idea or two if you're feeling it?
That's important because it's a different experience to get a negative response - at least it's a response. I know I'm not the only one who doesn't get answers, and being left without answers is worse than being told 'no.' If there's a 'no' given, there's a reason given, too, so there is often still some possibility. No answer at all is just the death of the idea.
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There are a lot of different topics kind of crashing in the same thread, and I agree with some statements while disagreeing with others, and feel some from both camps are not all that relevant to the first post to begin with. A good chunk of the problem to me is in the subject line. "options offered" heh.
You have to actually take action, not just think about it and wait for someone to give you the plan. Get a goal. People at these levels should suffer from an abundance of things they want to do, not too few. It's not feasible to do them all of course, but pick one and do something. Goals are not "I want to be important" or "I want my god to like me better" or "I want these people to fear me." Those are all reactionary. Decide you want to capture a dragon. Destroy a bloodpool. Join a cult, buy some slaves, place some wards, build a temple, repair a city, start a library.
Sending a message to DMs saying "I want to be involved with this" is a lot different than saying "I sent informants to the area to look into the murders, and would like to scry with this personal item for its owner, here are my stats and this DM has the info on my informants." One is waiting for options offered, the other is getting a plan and doing it, with GMs only the means to success or failure. It is at that point when you start relying on GMs, when you've done what you can as a player, and that point where things can start clogging up or getting lost.
There are plenty of times when I have let some events go by on the forums because I get pretty stupid tired of sending PMs that will no doubt just put another burden on the DM, especially when the ones that matter that don't get answered at all. When plot DMs go missing for months at a time but on other threads other DMs talk about players not doing anything or sharing information, continuing to invest in moving anything forward can get pretty tiresome. And you know, I wasn't involved in any of those things I let roll by. Pretty sure I could have been, but if it's not worth my time it's certainly not worth theirs to involve me.
As irritating as it can sometimes be to chase people with PMs and post long messages in forums again and again, that's actually pretty much why I was supposed to be a WL in the first place. Attending quests isn't enough, going to parties wasn't enough.
I once was on a series where we resumed at a pretty awkward spot for others to rejoin us. I hated that, confused people would show up not knowing why they were there and the whole thing would grind to a halt again. Rather than whine about it being open, I looked on the signup list and sent a lore bird to every person that signed up who wasn't in the party asking them to meet us and giving them information to brush up on. That is why I was a WL. In every series I have been on Acacea has spit out the background in its entirety when asked unless there was a fairly deadly reason not to, and one of the few that kept contact with NPCs after their purposes were done.
She was content to let others lead, but when forced would take matters into her own hands, and occasionally was that feared party member who strayed towards the big red button labeled "Do Not Push Under Any Circumstances." On her own WL she did not know where she was going half the time and didn't really have much of a plan at any point, but was constantly moving and did not waste any time biting nails. Think of something, plan the best you can, do it. Sometimes things blow up, and there's always a billion things you never thought of. That's okay. Insert your quarters and try again. If I can't get up the motivation to do another trip, to add another book, to send another PM, to write another song, then it's time to take a break.
I get tired because of too much to do and too little time to catch up on it, and too little information shared between those running things, not lack of things offered. Dream something up and do it. If not, play Lemmings. If yes, then worry about the lines. I didn't mean for it to be a rant, and certainly neither I nor my character is close to perfect, but it isn't enough to say "I want to be involved more" or "I'd like to know what's going on with the cult." Wouldn't we all! Pick a road and start walking and stick with it. It's harder than it sounds sometimes. Sometimes though, it's just a matter of going back to bury the redshirts everyone left behind once the quest was over.
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I'm not suggesting you personally don't answer, Dezza. I apologize if you thought I was.
The way you make it sound is exactly how it should be - get to it as you're able, knowing there is a point where an understandable length of time becomes a ridiculous length of time.
Sometimes there are no answers given, though, else I wouldn't be talking about unanswered questions.
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Regarding the NWN/MMO separation, I do still believe it is not only a good idea but necessary, and agree with everything Gulnyr has stated. It's not that I disagreed with what he was saying - far from it - just that the way the frustrations were phrased it seemed like that was really only part of the problem. I'm not denying that it's there though, and in this I don't see how "more DMs" helps, really. I'm not against it, I just don't think it's relevant. An example -
I had a funny oops where someone was going off the writeups looking at the leader of a major thieves guild and making them a prime factor in a WL, it's all stamped and everything... then threw up their hands because I was trying to get information and had to explain why Acacea was attempting to contact the church of Branderback. "Uh, I'm not trying to be lame, I'm really not, but Acacea helped make that guild." There are real player-made scenarios behind writeups, and people want to keep doing that - both interacting with the things they have done in the past and altering imaginary new writeups to come. Not just quoting documents to say yes/no you may proceed. Where though does 10 more GMs knowing even less really have more impact?
This is a completely separate thread, but where's the DM handbook? That's what you really need for a campaign setting ;)
Anyway, telling WLs to be more active in Pibe's thread while also saying Storold is one of the few who are does not really address his issue. Saying someone couldn't understand "milty's" vision of the world because they haven't been here as long isn't really the case, either. It is always nice to tip the hat to someone like L who started it, or Ed who collects the information and publishes it, or Dorg who constantly moderates the forums and performs various administrative duties and is the only reason we ever have any updates at all, but relying on people who have to make the MMO their priority is doing a disservice to your own community and often to the MMO itself. I'm not trying to be a jerk about anyone, this is the case - they do not run the quests, in most cases they do not write the content, they do not make the characters, most of the time they do not even ever meet the characters, and spending more time to be more involved takes away from their other responsibilities. At some point someone is going to make them cut the cord and refocus, or else they will have to devote more time here.
Could you not argue that Honora, having actually written most of the deity writeups, should be the NWN deity person as opposed to the person hitting find on the documents? What about all the DMs that sent Honora information that she put in the writeups, the content that she only summarized rather than created? What about all the stuff she has to do? Frankly I would have rather dealt with half the Brelin questions myself instead of relying on Pan, because of the other things he was responsible for.
Even now, because of RL and MMO and who knows what other responsibilities, I have had PMs sitting gathering dust for months. I've had PMs I just decided to drop rather than pursue after waiting so long, and once I got a response a year later. Sometimes I poke them, sometimes I shrug and move on. A negative response is better than none. At what point can someone help out with this stuff, you know?
And yeah, I really sneakily sliced the seeming length of my post by posting separately.
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I've been playing on layo on and off sporadically for a few years now, and I have to say that I have experienced pretty much the opposite of the OP. To be honest Ive never felt more able to make a significant impact in the world of layo.character level has never been an issue for me (I've never had a character over level 9, truth be told) and any previous issued I've had over layo, the server rules or player behaviour have only improved on leaps and bounds. I have to add that I personally don't want to see the NWN server go, as my fear that the MMO might remove much of what gives this place it's appeal.
But, in short, I can only support what has been said here: meaningfully choice is alive and well in the game, and if it takes my character a long time to achieve any, then my satisfaction will be only sweeter on the end. A good story, is above all, why most of us are here.
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I've been sort of holding off on my two cents worth here because well... I only just completed (except for wrap up) my wldq. But I think it all boils down to a point of view. Just because Daniella is now considered a world leader doesn't mean she gets to sit on her hands and have things fall into her lap. Quite the opposite actually. A leader is supposed to do exactly that- lead. Now, maybe it's part of Daniella's religion also, and yes, I had to actually sit down a bit this morning and think "huh... okay, I just finished the impossible... now what do I do?" So I thought about it, then I discussed with a few people whose opinions I value, and I realized that the reason I wanted to do this in the first place was not so I could get a whifty item or title or XP or even really prestige, or having my name bolded with the cool little namey thingy underneath that says "World Leader" underneath (can you tell I"m still really excited I passed?). The reason I wanted to do this in the first place is to have a -lasting- influence on the world in order to affect change for the better in relation to my character's goals and views. A lot of what I worked for before asking for the wldq in the first place was trying to build up the community of Toranites as a player base. So why would I stop doing that after I pass a wl quest? I wouldn't. But now that Daniella has passed that test and has gained the influence that the quest has brought her, it's not that I have nothing else to do, it's that so many more doors are actually opened.
Does that mean that through those doors will walk out my next task and quest idea? Absolutely not. I still have to pick which one to walk through, which one to pursue, which GM I think has the time, inventiveness, and willingness to take on the next challenge, and it is my job to see that those things are accomplished. The responsibility actually falls heavier on me or any world leader in my opinion because of that added trust.
If you want to see something happen, write up a quest idea and offer it to the GM team. Run it as a cdq, gcdq, or even offer it up as a serverwide quest to see what happens. Stir something up.
I personally have a lot planned for what to do with Daniella next and I for one am psyched beyond all reason at this point in time for the countless possibilities. I expect to be turned down on some, told I'm crazy on others, and there will be plenty of hit or miss things. However, if you brainstorm 100 ideas, at least a couple of them should take wing.
Have fun. Be creative. Be active. That's what makes the world of Layonara great.
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Could you expand on why you don't think you can affect the gameworld? I ask because I don't play a WL, yet I feel like Steel has and continues to affect the world. Moreover, I strive to involve others and give more players the opportunity to leave a mark on the world in their own way or as part of Steel's adventures. As a WL, you potentially have more resources available than my non-WL character, so I'm unclear as to why you would feel stifled.
Sorry, late to this debate. :)
Out of curiosity (and don't read a tone into my text that isn't there!), what lore exactly has Steel changed in the last three years that was already in existence?
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I had written a reply to this post, but have deleted it as I am afraid that it may be taken the wrong way due to imagined tones
Pseudonym: (and don't read a tone into my text that isn't there!)
What concerns me is that when someone raises a concern (re: Pibemande's orginal points), they are not answered directly but adamantly defended. These posts are not personal attacks: we need solutions, not defences.
And I want Layo NWN to stay as I love the characters, players and the community, but I despair when I read threads like this that go on and on.
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Frankly I think I outlined the fact that there is no answer to what was originally posted. Without more in game quest GM's actively available to run things it aint gunna happen, full stop.
I think thats pretty clear. We live with what we got, we do the best we can, if we can get by without GM support do so. If you can't...you aint gunna be happy.
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Could you not argue that Honora, having actually written most of the deity writeups, should be the NWN deity person as opposed to the person hitting find on the documents? What about all the DMs that sent Honora information that she put in the writeups, the content that she only summarized rather than created? What about all the stuff she has to do?
*IF* the option existed to field deity questions, I would do it, absolutely. But I only wrote half the gods, and half of those in conjunction with others, so there would still be time passing while I chased down so and so and reviewed the request with them. I'm not sure it would really save response time.
Nevertheless I did let Ed know I'd be willing to, if he wished. ;)
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Sorry, late to this debate. :)
Out of curiosity (and don't read a tone into my text that isn't there!), what lore exactly has Steel changed in the last three years that was already in existence?
He has. I'm not going into detail. Just stating he has because I was the GM responsible for the "update" in the text. What's more he's working on changing more of it (or at least there are rumblings of it).
~row
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I've been here for going on 6+ years now and have yet to bother with a WL sticker on my character sheet. What defines a WL? Somebody who's world-reknowned both in game and in the game world, makes an impact on the world through their actions, takes on the role of guiding the other players on quests and frequent trips, helps new players get adjusted to the server, and otherwise helps drive the story and the enjoyment of the world itself on an epic scale.
I don't need a sticker for that. I don't even need any 30+ lvl characters for that. I'd like to think that in my 6+ years of dedication, I've already accomplished this on my own. Therefore, I have little craving for a sticker or a status symbol, trophy or any other such artifact that proves what I already know.
People who are struggling to make an impact on the world should just hop in game and play to have fun, play with the goal of others having fun, and stop fretting about the special wands or shiny star stickers on the top of their character sheets. The recognition that matters is from the players you game with every day, and not what the scribes in the Hall of Heroes have to say about you.
As said above in this thread, there are plenty of sub 20th level characters who in my mind are "World Leaders" just as there are plenty of "World Leaders" who I've only heard their name, never met them in game and whose impact on my day to day enjoyment of the world has been negligible. No amount of staff recognition, quest rewards, statues in game or tales of epic deeds hundreds of years ago will change that. Only the player's involvement in the world and willingness to get involved with the population logging into the server.
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I like to think that Shiff, my best known PC, has had an impact. He was there to talk too much during the Ovdear negotiations, he was there to Annoy the Golden Emerald when she just woke up, he was there to break things to make monster go away when no one else could figure out why balors kept spawning, and he was there to slash and smash Drach's at the Battle for Hurix. And all I got for that was this lousy T-Shirt.... :P
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As a WL, you potentially have more resources available than my non-WL character, so I'm unclear as to why you would feel stifled.
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Storold is one of the most well known PCs OOC, and IC he is recognized all over Mistone, as well as various other regions around the world. If he wants to meet with nobility, what's stopping him? If he wants to perform magical experiments, what's stopping him? If he wants to start a holy war against Rael for stifling the use of the Al'Noth, what's stopping him?
I believe that Storold history is what is stopping him here, the one world changing event he was responsible for was killing several thousands and destroying a whole town. I see this as the biggest hindrance for any interaction of this kind.
Was it my own fault as a player and Storolds own fault as a character that this happened, surely it was! However given that Storold isn't an evil champion who makes his name by changing the world this way and getting away with it, I believe that the harm already done is great enough to justify that not many outside the church would deal with him. Maybe that isn't the case, maybe it is.
However that isn't really my concern as I haven't really bothered to check with Storolds standing with anyone but his church, which has been a rather tricky business which also greatly upset me. Which was due to me being protective of Storold.
Sadly there is one thing that I am rather iffy about, but again that is just me being a worse person than I should be, and that is that the goal of Storolds WLDQ never came to pass. Some might disagree there, and really they are free to, but I feel that this;
I envision Storold having a quite high position within the protectors of the weave as a result of a successful quest. Maybe even Weavestrike, but this is not required. He will be leading some of the protectors with a stern hand as he has done with all of his students so far, however he will also be more of a friend than a leader who just shout out commands for the people under him.
never happened. Was it my own fault, most likely! However it still doesn't change that I am saddened by the fact that it never came to pass. And there isn't much indicating that I can ever make it happen.
Why does a title next to Storolds name mean so much to me? I don't know, maybe it is just too much pride on my part for having made Storold what he is and having played him solely for the last 5-6 years. Most of all I would just like that Storold was something special and not one of something, surely there are always people above him, if nothing else I doubt that he will ever be a deity so I bet Lucinda would keep an watchful eye on him :P
(being the investigation of Storold's claims of corruption in the church and the pursuit of a certain creature in the Pits at the request of a certain general)
I guess I wasn't clear enough, these were surely good things to do. But the options offered in these cases is also what I am frustrated about, what you are telling me is that I could just have done them.
It is totally my own fault that I didn't do them, but the options I were given were;
Go find demon and deal with him, no information offered
Work together with a player who sadly left the world and request a CDQ.
Sorry but those two options doesn't cut it for me, if they should have I apologize, but as they stand I am very frustrated about them because they aren't open at all.
As for the PM I am very grateful for it, but as I had already answered the options left for me there were either being pursued, had been pursued or were uninteresting/nonsensical(maybe I feel that way because of the concerns statet above Ed's quote) to Storold as a character. Again I am very grateful for the effort you put into them, however they gave me nothing new or worth it for my character out of it.
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There are many ways to reply to this thread, both the original topic and the subsequent add-ons. There's lots of good points raised, and some not as good. I'm not saying which is which. ;)
I could do a point by point of the things that interested me, but I think that would take too long.
So instead I'll just respond to a few thoughts... and maybe offer a thought or two...and in no particular order.
On the divergence of lore...and lore in general...
Lore is not this monolithic thing, and while everything of significance that occurs in the world is going to, in some way, affect the future and by extension the MMO, that doesn't mean things can't change/happen/be altered. I think that perhaps there is a misconception here by GMs and players alike.
Ed can (and should) correct me if I'm wrong, but there are things that can change and things that cannot going forward. Things that cannot change are the core. Deities and their relationships are solidified (or darn near it), kingdoms/realms are being solidified, what magic is and how it works is solidified, characteristics of races are solidified and a few other things like that that are pretty "fundamental" to the setting as a whole are not likely to change. The islands of Corsain, Alibor and Tilmar specifically are more or less locked from this point on and nothing significant can happen there without a really good reason and Ed's approval, as this is the initial setting for the MMO.
But at the same time, there is a lot more that can be done, written, changed and/or accomplished outside of that. It should fit within the framework of what has been established and defined...for example discovering a new form of magic that is powered by blades of grass and which uses bubble gum and cooking oil as spell components probably isn't going to be possible.
The desire to break lore between NWN and the MMO seems to be born somewhat of the perception of immutability, when in fact it isn't immutable. I'm not going to go further on that though, because it's probably a topic in itself.
The question (to everyone) is: What do you want to do?
The follow-up question is also: Is it reasonable?
There is, admittedly, a strong issue with the main plot, and that is not something I'm going into here at this moment. However, there is also the matter of players taking initiative. Things in this world, left alone, would probably go bad for the adventuring population, or at least decidedly neutral and perhaps boring. Opportunities will not always be given. Sometimes they must be sought or made. This is the purpose for CDQs, player-driven initiatives and so forth.
On GM response...
Yes, sadly, sometimes this happens, but I'll say that with very few exceptions, the lack of response from a GM is almost always due to RL factors. As players, most people here have the option of just stepping away for a bit, and while some might miss their characters, usually no one is left hanging. GMs don't always have that option, but when they take it, it is common that someone is left hanging. It's stressful and often takes a back seat to RL stresses, of which I can cite several among the GM team over the last few years. So, with the exception of character submissions, don't feel bad about an occasional reminder to a GM if you don't get a timely response. I've been guilty of it myself due to several factors, and I am both grateful and embarrassed by the reminders. If they don't work, then consider there's probably something else going on and try not to take it personal.
So what is "having an effect"?
That's kind of the big question, isn't it? Maybe you set out to fulfill some grand goal, and maybe you succeed or maybe you don't. Maybe you get half way and fail, but maybe that half-way point was still something of great achievement worthy of a note somewhere. Whether that effect was "good" or "bad" depends somewhat on your goals and your own perspective. I'll say one thing though, and that it takes players to initiate things. With the exception of the main plot, GMs are generally not going to come up with ways for a specific person (or persons) to do great things at random times.
So I offer this piece of advice to everyone:
Don't be afraid to fail.
I lost count of how many "failures" there were in the previous campaign (Anyone remember the ritual in the Wolfswood Spider Cave???). Some even might argue that the way in which Bloodstone was killed was a "fail" in that it caused so much lingering death for 20 years. But consider this: Where would things be if people had not tried? My own character has fickle dice. He's failed important rolls more often than I like to count, but he's made some pretty good ones too. So it's all in the effort, and something just may come of it even if it seems a failure.
And while I can't guarantee that the GM team will be able to service all requests or even keep up if everyone asks for something different, I can guarantee that nothing will happen if the attempt is not made.
Anyway...!
This is already longer than I wanted, so hopefully it gets my thoughts across.
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Grr.
Sorry for the increasing frustration level.
I'm not talking about decoupling. I'm talking about the fact that too many things slip by. If so many things slip by you, surely someone else should pick up the less important parts, like NWN.
A fair comment to make, but it all comes down to people having time. (and/or having more people on the team, current team members are all swamped already which is not improving matters).
Your comment from that link - "Watch this space" - suggests something in the works, probably involving others, meaning it was some sort of priority and that something was being done. Apparently not, though, else it would not have been forgotten. The chance that everyone would forget something they were working on seems very, very slim.
A fair point as well. What I was referring to there was a change in the character approval process that we had discussed which would lead to a decrease in my involvement. But since there were several questions in that quote I responded to, that couldn't have been clear to anyone reading that.
Sometimes there are no answers given, though, else I wouldn't be talking about unanswered questions.
Fair point again. I agree with you, questions shouldn't be left unanswered. Things do fall on the wayside (as you've seen), and it's not intentional as I've mentioned. The only real solution would be having more people helping out, but as we don't have those at the moment, we're going to have to resort to reminders (and I don't mind to be reminded).
Nevertheless I did let Ed know I'd be willing to, if he wished.
All writers are already free to answer questions in the Ask the Loremaster threads on deities/realms/races/etc they have written. After all, they know it just as well (or better) than I do. Lore is not this monolithic thing, and while everything of significance that occurs in the world is going to, in some way, affect the future and by extension the MMO, that doesn't mean things can't change/happen/be altered. I think that perhaps there is a misconception here by GMs and players alike.
Ed can (and should) correct me if I'm wrong, but there are things that can change and things that cannot going forward. Things that cannot change are the core. Deities and their relationships are solidified (or darn near it), kingdoms/realms are being solidified, what magic is and how it works is solidified, characteristics of races are solidified and a few other things like that that are pretty "fundamental" to the setting as a whole are not likely to change. The islands of Corsain, Alibor and Tilmar specifically are more or less locked from this point on and nothing significant can happen there without a really good reason and Ed's approval, as this is the initial setting for the MMO.
But at the same time, there is a lot more that can be done, written, changed and/or accomplished outside of that. It should fit within the framework of what has been established and defined...
Correct!
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kingdoms/realms are being solidified
My apologies for plucking in the post, but as a player that is working hard to push matters in regards to a Kingdom/realm then could this point please be clarified?
I don't mind failure due to player actions, (all actions should have consequences after all ;) ) but finding out later that the effort was in vain because the lore of the realm was locked down for the upcoming MMO would be a bucket of cold water in the face.
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My apologies for plucking in the post, but as a player that is working hard to push matters in regards to a Kingdom/realm then could this point please be clarified?
I don't mind failure due to player actions, (all actions should have consequences after all ;) ) but finding out later that the effort was in vain because the lore of the realm was locked down for the upcoming MMO would be a bucket of cold water in the face.
Yeah reminds me of something Fehriel went through not long ago, because the information that would have been helpful for him to know, was no where to be found.
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My apologies for plucking in the post, but as a player that is working hard to push matters in regards to a Kingdom/realm then could this point please be clarified?
I don't mind failure due to player actions, (all actions should have consequences after all ;) ) but finding out later that the effort was in vain because the lore of the realm was locked down for the upcoming MMO would be a bucket of cold water in the face.
Things like leaders (their names, personalities, etc.), general population makeup, general attitudes and philosophies, characteristics of major cities and towns, geography...that sort of thing.
As far as I know, the only realms firmly locked down for the MMO are those on Corsain, Alibor and Tilmar.
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In any game, there are various things that affect a character's ability to change the world. Some of these are purely RP - the character's personality, their ambition, who they know in game, etc. Other things are purely OOC - the player's ability to work with DMs, their personal ability and drive to make things happen (I really do believe that some people are just better at generating movement in game), their amount and flexibility of play time, etc. And then there's the world design and management which kind of straddles the OOC/IC divide - and I this last is what people are focusing attention on in this thread. And it probably is a concern, but I think that people may be focusing on it to the exclusion of other things a bit.
One place that I do feel Layonara is lacking is mechanisms to effect change of moderate degree. Something bigger than "I put up a poster" or small actions that don't need any DM involvement or approval (or in game display), and smaller than the typical things that require a full out CDQ. Things that may require a character's interacting with NPCs, may require some true expenditure, but really don't need changes to the module, and don't have huge impact on a character.
In some games I've played in, for instance, characters were allowed to write character fiction pieces, to imagine stories that might happen to their characters that were not things that the game would typically accommodate developing - they submitted to to their DM, and if approved it became part of their story, and they even got xp for it. Sometimes these were the product of player DM collaboration (player: "I want to do x" DM: "Okay, when you try to do x, you meet y, and then z happens. go write it up in a story and I'll approve it"), or it could just be a player imagining what happens to them between game sessions. Every game session, we'd get a in-game newspaper, and if people's actions in their character fiction had a game world effect, there would be an article snippet about it. I'm sure that DMs would get swamped pretty quickly if this were implemented exactly here, but its an example of a mechanism that allows for players to achieve more than the game allows, without actually going through all the trouble of having to act things out in game.
Also, in many games I've played in, every faction or group had a DM (or one primary and one back-up), associated with them. So, say I wanted to try to spy on the Toranite church, I'd just send something to the "Toran" DM. If I wanted to try and gain a merchant's license in the kingdom of Rael, I'd hit up the "Rael" DM. If I were in a RP merchant guild and wanted to find out what the price of saffron is this year, I'd ask my guild DM. If I were a druid and wanted to wage a campaign to burn the fields of farmers who encroach on wildland, I'd contact the Druid DM. Given the current resources, I don't know how feasible this would be, but I would love to have something like this in Layo.
As it is, most actions of that type are resolved in three ways: 1. post on the forums and hope a DM responds to you. 2. ask on IRC for someone willing to deal with it, or roll the dice and pick a random DM. 3. try to flesh it out into something bigger for a CDQ. And maybe this works for people - I've had good success at times, and absolutely none at others. I do think that we can do better though.
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I think the best way to sum things up is as follows: the people who are responsible for Layonara are not going to change how they behave. They've shown no such inclination in the past, and there is no indication they intend to in the future. In fact, most indications point to the reverse.
So really, you just have to decide whether or not you like this server, and its culture, as it is.
It certainly has its charms: Technically, it's pretty well developed. (Sure - there are a few things Dorg hasn't been able to solve that other server teams have, like unlimited items and automated server transfer, but all in all he's done an amazing job - given that he's really the only one maintaining the code here. ) And some of the rules make for a different flavor than you see elsewhere (specifically, the no CvC rules and the perming rules make caution concerning risk taking much more realistic, IMHO). However, the general disinterest in GMing by the inner team, plus their general inability to hang onto "junior" GMs, make Layo one of the least RP-oriented of the RP servers out there.
I didn't realize how different things were until I went out and started a little throwaway PC on a different server, and within two weeks had had literally dozens of impromptus with various NPCs, just from walking around. From a little more investigation, I realized why: other leaderships value and foster people who want to "play as GMs" and "play as level/coder contractors", placing priority on maintaining communities rather than micromanagement and control, and therefore have a large number of part-time volunteers that they can delegate work to. That just isn't how it works here.
So I guess I return to my original statement. Layo is how Layo is. Play here, or don't. (Or play part-time, as I've chosen to.) It's still a good combat-oriented PvM server spiced up with an occasional GMed CDQ, and I have many good friends who enjoy playing here. But when I want more roleplaying interaction than friendly jibes among a party guild as we slaughter our way down to the emeralds, I go elsewhere.
Maybe you should too.
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Oh hey...since you invoked my name...
*strays off topic*
Automatic cross-server transfers has been solved and does work. It's not a matter of us not being able to solve it. It's a matter of the fact that it has historically caused problems with server stability. I could turn it on right now (Yep, really. It's in the code, just switched off), and we'll watch the server crash more frequently. So it's simply a design choice.
Other things that we may not have that other servers have...*shrugs* Again, they're more design choices. There have been very few things we've not been able to solve, and typically those are due to limits in Bioware's engine...and even then, we've gotten around a few of those even. The rest...something we don't have that someone else does...again, design decisions, resource management, whatever.
So please, get your facts straight before you go on making assumptions about what we can or cannot solve.
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On another point, I'm pleased you've found other servers that you find enjoyable. I know plenty of our other players do as well, and there's of course nothing wrong with it. It is, however, a matter of some disrespect to start encouraging others to look elsewhere. It's like walking into a business, crowing about its mediocrity, and telling people the place across the street is better in all the non-mediocre ways.
We're not ideal in any way, and you are surely entitled to express your opinion whatever it may be, but it's really low class to encourage people to go elsewhere. Let them come to that decision on their own. Show some respect.
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As for the rest, I'm letting it lie. You make too many assumptions, especially about interest among the "inner team", what keeps GMs, how (and why) we behave etc.
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To everyone, RP begets RP. Do more, and you'll see more. Some of you get this, and generally enjoy impromptus and little changes that happen over the course of what would otherwise be "normal".
On the flip side, there have been plenty of people who see impromptus as an interruption...even a disruption. People have sent irritated and angry (yes, really) messages to GMs for "getting in their way" or "interrupting." Interrupting what? Yep, you guessed it...XP and CNR farming. Some GMs have gotten so fed up with that attitude that they just stopped doing them completely.
So, as I have said multiple times, both players and GMs contribute to the state of things.
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On the flip side, there have been plenty of people who see impromptus as an interruption...even a disruption.
:) Wow.. that surprises me, but I do believe you. (To GM's in General) I've never had one and would welcome some of that love. ;)
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On the flip side, there have been plenty of people who see impromptus as an interruption...even a disruption. People have sent irritated and angry (yes, really) messages to GMs for "getting in their way" or "interrupting." Interrupting what? Yep, you guessed it...XP and CNR farming. Some GMs have gotten so fed up with that attitude that they just stopped doing them completely.
This is a shame. I have only had a few impromtus from Gm's, but always found them to be enjoyable and good change of pace and opens up many different avenues for RP and player interaction. Thanks to all the Gm's who take their own playing time away to make it enjoyble for the rest of us :)
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not liking loving, that is just not right.
who would rather go pick mushrooms or aloe or whatever, then run into something unexpected. maybe some would but i know i have always loved gm jumping in, well except for when i was jumped into the bad place cause i was a very bad druid that day, but it was still needed to show me the limits.
other places have more dms as part timers, sure, but something that was left out of the server he probably went to visit, it was faerun canon and millions of people know enough to be a dm there, and dont get me wrong ive run to faerun a few times just to clear my head.
layo is a whole different beast, and as such demands a whole different mindset. not once did i think that the other place was better cause it was a broader more known background that anyone could tweak or love on.
i have always come back to layo for the last four years, with a couple of non playing breaks tossed in, with a clear head and need to go get some dang hunters out of my woods.
the gms here have double duties some have triple im sure, and i dont fault them putting business first
but and this is big, i was told when i first came here, that layo is what you make of it, and that hasnt changed a bit. player driven with subtle gming spicing things up.
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On the flip side, there have been plenty of people who see impromptus as an interruption...even a disruption. People have sent irritated and angry (yes, really) messages to GMs for "getting in their way" or "interrupting." Interrupting what? Yep, you guessed it...XP and CNR farming. Some GMs have gotten so fed up with that attitude that they just stopped doing them completely.
As surprising as this may seem to some, it is very true. I remember when I was a GM there were MANY player complaints about GMs drop ins interrupting their CNR gathering or their "well planned for what we expected to find" trips. Those players would go right to Dorg saying the GMs were "hunting" them or the unexpected drop in messed up their wail, thunder clap, weird, then clean up formula. This is why some GMs stay clear of drop ins. You see the team does not want to be seen a favoring the GMs so when players complain about GM activity it is the GMs that take the heat, even if they were acting well within the guidelines.
Sorry for the rant here, but folks have to understand that there are lasting effects to actions. So be nice to the GMs, they want to have fun too and changing up what shows up in area x, y, or z is a good thing especially if you are not ready for it.
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Please understand that I am not discouraging impromptus or anything of the sort, but this (off topic) position is one that is easy to flame and will find little defense offered to something that can be complicated. It's not fair to pile onto one statement without considering possible reasons for the sentiment.
Even I have been on trips where far from being just silent blast-through kill-trips, all the party members were interacting and bantering and using their skills and generally just being the self-sufficient entertainment-generating players that people are supposed to be encouraged to be on trips like that... only to have a party wipe or someone token because of GM spawns in already dangerous places with no roleplay enhancements, no skill checks to avoid ambushes, and often no real idea of the reasons why some creatures belong in an area and some do not.
A player tokening on a trip that everyone was contributing to for no apparent reason and no roleplay opportunities whatsoever just kills the mood, and worse, not to dare to speak otherwise than the easy majority, but I have been in a group of roughly the same makeup a few times in a row where the same GM pulled the same deal and people died for it.
I'm also sorry it's not a popular opinion, but not all GMs always know much about the areas they are interacting with, or the NPCs they randomly possess. If a group is sitting down at a campfire exchanging stories, that is good roleplay. There is a lot a GM can do to enhance it. If the GM only has 5 minutes to play though, why break up the storytime to say a house is on fire only to scatter people looking for tracks, wondering what happened, and never getting a response? Why, in a player-owned establishment, decide who works there and suddenly decide the player-run building has a new serving girl and start a "who are you?" conversation?
Everyone should appreciate the time and effort that GM volunteers put in to make the world alive, and accusing all impromptus of disruption ruins it for everyone. Not all impromptus are created equally, however, and some thought put in before breaking up an RP session for a confused tell-ignoring half hour helps things immensely.
Again, I am not trying to take the opposite side, against impromptus... I just think it is unfair to make some broad statements so that the anonymous targeted can be trampled by a bandwagon on a thread that is not even remotely about it. Please consider the possibility that when rifts open between parties, there are sometimes reasons on both sides, even if they are misunderstood and poorly communicated. We have a pretty huge history of miscommunication, heh.
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Thanks Acacea, took the words right out of my mouth.
There is a world of difference between a roleplay opportunity with hints and nudges and an unkillable monster dumped or even worse left.
The best way to heal rifts of miscommunication, is to communicate. Prefably before and after.
:)
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I agree with Acacea. I have been on impromptus that were a real treat to be in, intriguing and very well run. And I have been on impromptus that were not as well run, some left a bad taste. It has to do with experience. One that had left a bad taste on time, the same gm on a later run, after gaining a bit more experience, ran one that was a real treat. So judging on bad experiences is not fair. I have had many fun impromptus, more than I have had bad ones.
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I just happened to notice this reply sorry.
*IF* the option existed to field deity questions, I would do it, absolutely. But I only wrote half the gods, and half of those in conjunction with others, so there would still be time passing while I chased down so and so and reviewed the request with them. I'm not sure it would really save response time.
Nevertheless I did let Ed know I'd be willing to, if he wished. ;)
I'm sorry if this was misunderstood, but the point was that you are on the MMO team as well, and created new life and churches for deities that have hefty lives spanning backwards in NWN. The content that you piled in that happened here rather than in your head are just tiny fractions of what has occurred. You can quote a writeup, but having the summary about the Ivory Hounds didn't help to understand the series that built it and the players that were on it. I am not saying anyone would know this, only that at first an argument could be made, and on second it is not a whole lot different - all forward looking, and still someone who has responsibilities elsewhere... and no, not really saving a whole lot of response time, heh.
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I've been watching this thread lately. A lot of interesting points have been made! But it is only going to get harder and harder for WL to make a difference or anyone for that matter. There are more WLs now and fewer active GMs. WL are more common now, easier to obtain than it was years ago when very few characters even reached level 20.
At the same time.. An online game is just like in RL school, politics, workplace etc. At times, if you want to change things or move up, it all depends on who you are friends with or who you know. In your work place you know which boss to go to if you want to get something done. Results depend on who you go to. Some have more pull than others. Some may just put in more effort. It also may depend on if you are on their good side *winks*. It is a fact of life.
Someone hit it on the head with lack of GM activity. There are very few quests on the calendar and a lot of those are CDQs/WLDQs. There is a list of 20 GM's or so, but some of them you do not see any more. It may be RL, MMO or just loss of interest. The fact remains they just are not there. I haven't been around since the new round DM's and therefore I can't include them in my observations I don't know how active there are. Sadly there seems to be a trend, after nearly every DM round old dm's step down, while that is a natural progression it doesn't deal with the problem of Layo lacking active dm's that are out in the world. You can't have changes without DM's there willing to help you and some of the DM's around now are so overworked. No one can do work on the MMO, work on NwN and have a real life without cutting short on something. At the moment it seems like its NwN is the one getting cut the most, 20 dm's and how many of those are connected to NwN? I do have to say a BIG kudos for Dezza! From the calendar it looks like he does the job of many GMs. Again.. The same with bosses.. some GMs are more approachable to ask for help.
Gulnyr was correct when he mentioned DMs do not make calls on the fly like they use to. Seems many are afraid of making mistakes that have to be 'fixed'. That is just embarrassing to have to go back and redo something. There is so much lore and a lot of it is still being rewritten to where no one knows what is current. How can you make changes when you do not know where things stand now?
It is really hard to change things here. I know it isn't a popular statement but I have to agree with some that SteveMaurer stated.
"So really, you just have to decide whether or not you like this server, and its culture, as it is."
You can continue to stay and try to help make changes and enjoy what is left of NwN or... move on.
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*comes back after a few days away*
OK, first of all, I was not making generalized statements about impromptus, singling out one of multiple groups of anonymous people or anything of the sort. I was never implying that all impromptus are perfectly done, that GMs don't mistake "UNKILLABLE MONSTER" for "RP opportunity" sometimes. That's often a matter of experience, than anything.
I was not implying that all impromptus are shunned by players, not trying to start a bandwagon, and certainly not trying to make any anonymous group of people feel persecuted or ganged up on. I was not implying any of these things or any other things that might have been assumed by my statements.
Except for one.
The assertion was made about how impromptus aren't that common here, that GMs just don't interact with people very much and so on. The only thing I was trying to illustrate is that there are (unfortunately) reasons for this and they don't have anything to do with a lack of interest on the GM's side of things. If anything, it is these reasons contribute to a lack of interest, or rather a "why should I bother?" sort of feeling when such criticisms come back repeatedly at the start of some impromptu interaction.
Your perceptions may vary.
The point being of course that there isn't One Thing that can be said to contribute to the lack or quality of impromptus. In many ways, Layonara is a "closed loop" system, where events beget feedback, which then beget other events that produce other feedback and so on. GMs and players alike contribute to the state of things, and to point the finger at one group or the other is missing half of the picture...at least.
But anyway, that's sort of flying even further off topic, so I'm going to (for my part) let that one rest.
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WOOT!!! For the underdog! I hear ya Polak76 when it comes to the dark side of the world of Layonara. It was always fun trying to cause some mess out there!
I for one disagree with the original post.
Maybe it's beacause in the 6-8 years (god I can't remember how long it's been now, possibly more) I've focused on making evil/dark aligned characters that I've gotten too used to being alone and forgotten. Was I upset by this...hell no. I found others like myself and we stuck together, worked hard and eventually got what we deserved. It made it all the more worth it having put the effort in and I can't thank the team enough for rewarding us with the beautiful temple to name one of them.
Someone raised a thread once a while back about characters under lvl 20 that are epic in their own right. i was very pleased to see that my old character made it in the group, together with my dark comrads. You see it's not about having GM's alter the world becuase your character is lvl 30+ and should be god-like becuase you're a WL. It's more about the influence you have on others around you that is WL not the title and level of the char.
As far as being told what to do these days, mate, we've been told 'no' almost all the time. Did it stop us...No. We kept at it and eventually it paid off. One example is the recent approval of Champions of Corath, Pyrtechon, Baerun...etc. We worked on this for a long time. If the team acted on every whim from a high level character then it wouldn't be balanced. And I won't go into the resources since MYC, ED & Dezza summed it up perfectly.
As mentioned I've been around for a very long time and I've yet to crack lvl 20. It was only until the last 12 months that things are starting to happen for us Corathites. I'm also finially doing my first WL. I don't anticipate I'll ever make it past lvl 30 nor do I expect that I'll run the temple, tilt the balance of light and dark, reach lichedom or sip tea with Corath himself. As a WL (if i pass) i only expect to influence the people around me, mainly to hate me most of the time, otherwise assist guiding other evil chacaters who want to make waves. I'm sorry but if I was to expect that being WL means I'm god-like and deserve more than the next man who puts a lot of effort in RP that would be simply selfish.
Cheers,
Polak76
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Just to dip my gobliny whelp opinion in the thread here but I do do alot of grinding, primarily because I hate low level combat as it bores me to tears, secondly because the crafting system is not something I enjoy too much (to each their own right) and because alot of the time layonara isn't full of players. My answer then is to grind and increase my char's strength so I can hang out with others and be useful on quests and combat, because standing there and being so weak that NPCs spawns own you makes the experiance rather dulled down in some cases (alot are higher level than me currently in terms of dark elves).
It is.. without a shadow of a doubt.. ~boring~. However if CNR gathering and bashing in a NPC head with the same animations and same techniques for hours on end is your thing, well whatever but I personally would much rather an impromtu to break the monotomy (mis-spelled prolly but you see what I mean).
If people are getting annoyed at GMs.. perhaps, for those who like to be left alone: Rather than doing a quest without warning, or not doing it at all, just ask the players if they are all alright with doing something 'different' to what their doing. If the answer is a No. Then No. If the answer however is Yes.. ta da.. Quest.