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Author Topic: WL frustrated with options offered  (Read 3827 times)

Dorganath

Re: WL frustrated with options offered
« Reply #40 on: June 29, 2010, 01:56:45 pm »
There are many ways to reply to this thread, both the original topic and the subsequent add-ons.  There's lots of good points raised, and some not as good.  I'm not saying which is which. ;)

I could do a point by point of the things that interested me, but I think that would take too long.

So instead I'll just respond to a few thoughts... and maybe offer a thought or two...and in no particular order.

On the divergence of lore...and lore in general...

Lore is not this monolithic thing, and while everything of significance that occurs in the world is going to, in some way, affect the future and by extension the MMO, that doesn't mean things can't change/happen/be altered.  I think that perhaps there is a misconception here by GMs and players alike.

Ed can (and should) correct me if I'm wrong, but there are things that can change and things that cannot going forward.  Things that cannot change are the core. Deities and their relationships are solidified (or darn near it), kingdoms/realms are being solidified, what magic is and how it works is solidified, characteristics of races are solidified and a few other things like that that are pretty "fundamental" to the setting as a whole are not likely to change. The islands of Corsain, Alibor and Tilmar specifically are more or less locked from this point on and nothing significant can happen there without a really good reason and Ed's approval, as this is the initial setting for the MMO.

But at the same time, there is a lot more that can be done, written, changed and/or accomplished outside of that.  It should fit within the framework of what has been established and defined...for example discovering a new form of magic that is powered by blades of grass and which uses bubble gum and cooking oil as spell components probably isn't going to be possible.

The desire to break lore between NWN and the MMO seems to be born somewhat of the perception of immutability, when in fact it isn't immutable. I'm not going to go further on that though, because it's probably a topic in itself.

The question (to everyone) is: What do you want to do?

The follow-up question is also: Is it reasonable?

There is, admittedly, a strong issue with the main plot, and that is not something I'm going into here at this moment.  However, there is also the matter of players taking initiative. Things in this world, left alone, would probably go bad for the adventuring population, or at least decidedly neutral and perhaps boring. Opportunities will not always be given.  Sometimes they must be sought or made.  This is the purpose for CDQs, player-driven initiatives and so forth.

On GM response...

Yes, sadly, sometimes this happens, but I'll say that with very few exceptions, the lack of response from a GM is almost always due to RL factors. As players, most people here have the option of just stepping away for a bit, and while some might miss their characters, usually no one is left hanging.  GMs don't always have that option, but when they take it, it is common that someone is left hanging.  It's stressful and often takes a back seat to RL stresses, of which I can cite several among the GM team over the last few years. So, with the exception of character submissions, don't feel bad about an occasional reminder to a GM if you don't get a timely response. I've been guilty of it myself due to several factors, and I am both grateful and embarrassed by the reminders.  If they don't work, then consider there's probably something else going on and try not to take it personal.

So what is "having an effect"?

That's kind of the big question, isn't it?  Maybe you set out to fulfill some grand goal, and maybe you succeed or maybe you don't.  Maybe you get half way and fail, but maybe that half-way point was still something of great achievement worthy of a note somewhere. Whether that effect was "good" or "bad" depends somewhat on your goals and your own perspective.  I'll say one thing though, and that it takes players to initiate things.  With the exception of the main plot, GMs are generally not going to come up with ways for a specific person (or persons) to do great things at random times.

So I offer this piece of advice to everyone:

Don't be afraid to fail.

I lost count of how many "failures" there were in the previous campaign (Anyone remember the ritual in the Wolfswood Spider Cave???).  Some even might argue that the way in which Bloodstone was killed was a "fail" in that it caused so much lingering death for 20 years. But consider this: Where would things be if people had not tried? My own character has fickle dice.  He's failed important rolls more often than I like to count, but he's made some pretty good ones too.  So it's all in the effort, and something just may come of it even if it seems a failure.

And while I can't guarantee that the GM team will be able to service all requests or even keep up if everyone asks for something different, I can guarantee that nothing will happen if the attempt is not made.

Anyway...!

This is already longer than I wanted, so hopefully it gets my thoughts across.
 

EdTheKet

Re: WL frustrated with options offered
« Reply #41 on: June 29, 2010, 06:19:03 pm »
Quote from: Gulnyr
Grr.
Sorry for the increasing frustration level.
 
Quote
I'm not talking about decoupling. I'm talking about the fact that too many things slip by. If so many things slip by you, surely someone else should pick up the less important parts, like NWN.
A fair comment to make, but it all comes down to people having time. (and/or having more people on the team, current team members are all swamped already which is not improving matters).
 
Quote
Your comment from that link - "Watch this space" - suggests something in the works, probably involving others, meaning it was some sort of priority and that something was being done. Apparently not, though, else it would not have been forgotten. The chance that everyone would forget something they were working on seems very, very slim.
A fair point as well. What I was referring to there was a change in the character approval process that we had discussed which would lead to a decrease in my involvement. But since there were several questions in that quote I responded to, that couldn't have been clear to anyone reading that.
 
Quote from: Gulnyr
Sometimes there are no answers given, though, else I wouldn't be talking about unanswered questions.
Fair point again. I agree with you, questions shouldn't be left unanswered. Things do fall on the wayside (as you've seen), and it's not intentional as I've mentioned. The only real solution would be having more people helping out, but as we don't have those at the moment, we're going to have to resort to reminders (and I don't mind to be reminded).
 
Quote from: Honora
Nevertheless I did let Ed know I'd be willing to, if he wished.
All writers are already free to answer questions in the Ask the Loremaster threads on deities/realms/races/etc they have written. After all, they know it just as well (or better) than I do.
Quote from: Dorg
Lore is not this monolithic thing, and while everything of significance that occurs in the world is going to, in some way, affect the future and by extension the MMO, that doesn't mean things can't change/happen/be altered. I think that perhaps there is a misconception here by GMs and players alike.
 Ed can (and should) correct me if I'm wrong, but there are things that can change and things that cannot going forward. Things that cannot change are the core. Deities and their relationships are solidified (or darn near it), kingdoms/realms are being solidified, what magic is and how it works is solidified, characteristics of races are solidified and a few other things like that that are pretty "fundamental" to the setting as a whole are not likely to change. The islands of Corsain, Alibor and Tilmar specifically are more or less locked from this point on and nothing significant can happen there without a really good reason and Ed's approval, as this is the initial setting for the MMO.
 But at the same time, there is a lot more that can be done, written, changed and/or accomplished outside of that. It should fit within the framework of what has been established and defined...
Correct!
 

akata

Re: WL frustrated with options offered
« Reply #42 on: June 30, 2010, 02:15:18 am »
Quote from: Dorganath

kingdoms/realms are being solidified


My apologies for plucking in the post, but as a player that is working hard to push matters in regards to a Kingdom/realm then could this point please be clarified?  

I don't mind failure due to player actions, (all actions should have consequences after all ;) ) but finding out later that the effort was in vain because the lore of the realm was locked down for the upcoming MMO would be a bucket of cold water in the face.
 

Hellblazer

Re: WL frustrated with options offered
« Reply #43 on: June 30, 2010, 05:07:17 am »
Quote from: akata
My apologies for plucking in the post, but as a player that is working hard to push matters in regards to a Kingdom/realm then could this point please be clarified?  

I don't mind failure due to player actions, (all actions should have consequences after all ;) ) but finding out later that the effort was in vain because the lore of the realm was locked down for the upcoming MMO would be a bucket of cold water in the face.


Yeah reminds me of something Fehriel went through not long ago, because the information that would have been helpful for him to know, was no where to be found.

Dorganath

Re: WL frustrated with options offered
« Reply #44 on: June 30, 2010, 08:26:54 am »
Quote from: akata
My apologies for plucking in the post, but as a player that is working hard to push matters in regards to a Kingdom/realm then could this point please be clarified?  

I don't mind failure due to player actions, (all actions should have consequences after all ;) ) but finding out later that the effort was in vain because the lore of the realm was locked down for the upcoming MMO would be a bucket of cold water in the face.

Things like leaders (their names, personalities, etc.), general population makeup, general attitudes and philosophies, characteristics of major cities and towns, geography...that sort of thing.

As far as I know, the only realms firmly locked down for the MMO are those on Corsain, Alibor and Tilmar.
 

ycleption

Re: WL frustrated with options offered
« Reply #45 on: June 30, 2010, 10:10:28 pm »
In any game, there are various things that affect a character's ability to change the world. Some of these are purely RP - the character's personality, their ambition, who they know in game, etc. Other things are purely OOC - the player's ability to work with DMs, their personal ability and drive to make things happen (I really do believe that some people are just better at generating movement in game), their amount and flexibility of play time, etc. And then there's the world design and management which kind of straddles the OOC/IC divide - and I this last is what people are focusing attention on in this thread. And it probably is a concern, but I think that people may be focusing on it to the exclusion of other things a bit.

One place that I do feel Layonara is lacking is mechanisms to effect change of moderate degree. Something bigger than "I put up a poster" or small actions that don't need any DM involvement or approval (or in game display), and smaller than the typical things that require a full out CDQ. Things that may require a character's interacting with NPCs, may require some true expenditure, but really don't need changes to the module, and don't have huge impact on a character.

In some games I've played in, for instance, characters were allowed to write character fiction pieces, to imagine stories that might happen to their characters that were not things that the game would typically accommodate developing - they submitted to to their DM, and if approved it became part of their story, and they even got xp for it. Sometimes these were the product of player DM collaboration (player: "I want to do x" DM: "Okay, when you try to do x, you meet y, and then z happens. go write it up in a story and I'll approve it"), or it could just be a player imagining what happens to them between game sessions. Every game session, we'd get a in-game newspaper, and if people's actions in their character fiction had a game world effect, there would be an article snippet about it. I'm sure that DMs would get swamped pretty quickly if this were implemented exactly here, but its an example of a mechanism that allows for players to achieve more than the game allows, without actually going through all the trouble of having to act things out in game.

Also, in many games I've played in, every faction or group had a DM (or one primary and one back-up), associated with them. So, say I wanted to try to spy on the Toranite church, I'd just send something to the "Toran" DM. If I wanted to try and gain a merchant's license in the kingdom of Rael, I'd hit up the "Rael" DM. If I were in a RP merchant guild and wanted to find out what the price of saffron is this year, I'd ask my guild DM. If I were a druid and wanted to wage a campaign to burn the fields of farmers who encroach on wildland, I'd contact the Druid DM. Given the current resources, I don't know how feasible this would be, but I would love to have something like this in Layo.

As it is, most actions of that type are resolved in three ways: 1. post on the forums and hope a DM responds to you. 2. ask on IRC for someone willing to deal with it, or roll the dice and pick a random DM. 3. try to flesh it out into something bigger for a CDQ. And maybe this works for people - I've had good success at times, and absolutely none at others. I do think that we can do better though.
 

SteveMaurer

Re: WL frustrated with options offered
« Reply #46 on: July 02, 2010, 05:09:52 pm »
I think the best way to sum things up is as follows: the people who are responsible for Layonara are not going to change how they behave.  They've shown no such inclination in the past, and there is no indication they intend to in the future.   In fact, most indications point to the reverse.

So really, you just have to decide whether or not you like this server, and its culture, as it is.

It certainly has its charms:  Technically, it's pretty well developed.   (Sure - there are a few things Dorg hasn't been able to solve that other server teams have, like unlimited items and automated server transfer, but all in all he's done an amazing job - given that he's really the only one maintaining the code here. )   And some of the rules make for a different flavor than you see elsewhere (specifically, the no CvC rules and the perming rules make caution concerning risk taking much more realistic, IMHO).   However, the general disinterest in GMing by the inner team, plus their general inability to hang onto "junior" GMs, make Layo one of the least RP-oriented of the RP servers out there.

I didn't realize how different things were until I went out and started a little throwaway PC on a different server, and within two weeks had had literally dozens of impromptus with various NPCs, just from walking around.  From a little more investigation, I realized why: other leaderships value and foster people who want to "play as GMs" and "play as level/coder contractors", placing priority on maintaining communities rather than micromanagement and control, and therefore have a large number of part-time volunteers that they can delegate work to.       That just isn't how it works here.

So I guess I return to my original statement.  Layo is how Layo is.    Play here, or don't.    (Or play part-time, as I've chosen to.)   It's still a good combat-oriented PvM server spiced up with an occasional GMed CDQ, and I have many good friends who enjoy playing here.   But when I want more roleplaying interaction than  friendly jibes among a party guild as we slaughter our way down to the emeralds, I go elsewhere.

Maybe you should too.
 

Dorganath

Re: WL frustrated with options offered
« Reply #47 on: July 02, 2010, 07:39:19 pm »
Oh hey...since you invoked my name...

*strays off topic*

Automatic cross-server transfers has been solved and does work. It's not a matter of us not being able to solve it. It's a matter of the fact that it has historically caused problems with server stability. I could turn it on right now (Yep, really. It's in the code, just switched off), and we'll watch the server crash more frequently. So it's simply a design choice.

Other things that we may not have that other servers have...*shrugs* Again, they're more design choices. There have been very few things we've not been able to solve, and typically those are due to limits in Bioware's engine...and even then, we've gotten around a few of those even.  The rest...something we don't have that someone else does...again, design decisions, resource management, whatever.

So please, get your facts straight before you go on making assumptions about what we can or cannot solve.

-------------

On another point, I'm pleased you've found other servers that you find  enjoyable. I know plenty of our other players do as well, and there's of course nothing wrong with it. It is, however, a matter of some disrespect to start encouraging others to look elsewhere.  It's like walking into a business, crowing about its mediocrity, and telling people the place across the street is better in all the non-mediocre ways.

We're not ideal in any way, and you are surely entitled to express your opinion whatever it may be, but it's really low class to encourage people to go elsewhere. Let them come to that decision on their own. Show some respect.

-------------

As for the rest, I'm letting it lie. You make too many assumptions, especially about interest among the "inner team", what keeps GMs, how (and why) we behave etc.

-------------

To everyone, RP begets RP.  Do more, and you'll see more. Some of you get this, and generally enjoy impromptus and little changes that happen over the course of what would otherwise be "normal".  

On the flip side, there have been plenty of people who see impromptus as an interruption...even a disruption. People have sent irritated and angry (yes, really) messages to GMs for "getting in their way" or "interrupting."  Interrupting what?  Yep, you guessed it...XP and CNR farming.  Some GMs have gotten so fed up with that attitude that they just stopped doing them completely.

So, as I have said multiple times, both players and GMs contribute to the state of things.
 

Ravemore

Re: WL frustrated with options offered
« Reply #48 on: July 02, 2010, 09:34:03 pm »
Quote from: Dorganath
On the flip side, there have been plenty of people who see impromptus as an interruption...even a disruption.


:) Wow.. that surprises me, but I do believe you. (To GM's in General) I've never had one and would welcome some of that love. ;)
 

Warchild214

Re: WL frustrated with options offered
« Reply #49 on: July 03, 2010, 06:50:20 am »
Quote from: Dorganath
 

On the flip side, there have been plenty of people who see impromptus as an interruption...even a disruption. People have sent irritated and angry (yes, really) messages to GMs for "getting in their way" or "interrupting."  Interrupting what?  Yep, you guessed it...XP and CNR farming.  Some GMs have gotten so fed up with that attitude that they just stopped doing them completely.


This is a shame.  I have only had a few impromtus from Gm's, but always found them to be enjoyable and good change of pace and opens up many different avenues for RP and player interaction.  Thanks to all the Gm's who take their own playing time away to make it enjoyble for the rest of us :)
 

Falonthas

Re: WL frustrated with options offered
« Reply #50 on: July 03, 2010, 10:36:27 am »
not liking loving, that is just not right.

who would rather go pick mushrooms or aloe or whatever, then run into something unexpected. maybe some would but i know i have always loved gm jumping in, well except for when i was jumped into the bad place cause i was a very bad druid that day, but it was still needed to show me the limits.

other places have more dms as part timers, sure, but something that was left out of the server he probably went to visit, it was faerun canon and millions of people know enough to be a dm there, and dont get me wrong ive run to faerun a few times just to clear my head.
layo is a whole different beast, and as such demands a whole different mindset. not once did i think that the other place was better cause it was a broader more known background that anyone could tweak or love on.
i have always come back to layo for the last four years, with a couple of non playing breaks tossed in, with a clear head and need to go get some dang hunters out of my woods.
the gms here have double duties some have triple im sure, and i dont fault them putting business first
but and this is big, i was told when i first came here, that layo is what you make of it, and that hasnt changed a bit. player driven with subtle gming spicing things up.
 

jrizz

Re: WL frustrated with options offered
« Reply #51 on: July 03, 2010, 01:05:50 pm »
Quote from: Dorganath
On the flip side, there have been plenty of people who see impromptus as an interruption...even a disruption. People have sent irritated and angry (yes, really) messages to GMs for "getting in their way" or "interrupting."  Interrupting what?  Yep, you guessed it...XP and CNR farming.  Some GMs have gotten so fed up with that attitude that they just stopped doing them completely.

As surprising as this may seem to some, it is very true. I remember when I was a GM there were MANY player complaints about GMs drop ins interrupting their CNR gathering or their "well planned for what we expected to find" trips. Those players would go right to Dorg saying the GMs were "hunting" them or the unexpected drop in messed up their wail, thunder clap, weird, then clean up formula. This is why some GMs stay clear of drop ins. You see the team does not want to be seen a favoring the GMs so when players complain about GM activity it is the GMs that take the heat, even if they were acting well within the guidelines.

Sorry for the rant here, but folks have to understand that there are lasting effects to actions. So be nice to the GMs, they want to have fun too and changing up what shows up in area x, y, or z is a good thing especially if you are not ready for it.
 

Acacea

Re: WL frustrated with options offered
« Reply #52 on: July 03, 2010, 02:01:47 pm »
Please understand that I am not discouraging impromptus or anything of the sort, but this (off topic) position is one that is easy to flame and will find little defense offered to something that can be complicated. It's not fair to pile onto one statement without considering possible reasons for the sentiment.

Even I have been on trips where far from being just silent blast-through kill-trips, all the party members were interacting and bantering and using their skills and generally just being the self-sufficient entertainment-generating players that people are supposed to be encouraged to be on trips like that... only to have a party wipe or someone token because of GM spawns in already dangerous places with no roleplay enhancements, no skill checks to avoid ambushes, and often no real idea of the reasons why some creatures belong in an area and some do not.

A player tokening on a trip that everyone was contributing to for no apparent reason and no roleplay opportunities whatsoever just kills the mood, and worse, not to dare to speak otherwise than the easy majority, but I have been in a group of roughly the same makeup a few times in a row where the same GM pulled the same deal and people died for it.

I'm also sorry it's not a popular opinion, but not all GMs always know much about the areas they are interacting with, or the NPCs they randomly possess. If a group is sitting down at a campfire exchanging stories, that is good roleplay. There is a lot a GM can do to enhance it. If the GM only has 5 minutes to play though, why break up the storytime to say a house is on fire only to scatter people looking for tracks, wondering what happened, and never getting a response? Why, in a player-owned establishment, decide who works there and suddenly decide the player-run building has a new serving girl and start a "who are you?" conversation?

Everyone should appreciate the time and effort that GM volunteers put in to make the world alive, and accusing all impromptus of disruption ruins it for everyone. Not all impromptus are created equally, however, and some thought put in before breaking up an RP session for a confused tell-ignoring half hour helps things immensely.

Again, I am not trying to take the opposite side, against impromptus... I just think it is unfair to make some broad statements so that the anonymous targeted can be trampled by a bandwagon on a thread that is not even remotely about it. Please consider the possibility that when rifts open between parties, there are sometimes reasons on both sides, even if they are misunderstood and poorly communicated. We have a pretty huge history of miscommunication, heh.
 

Xiaobeibi

Re: WL frustrated with options offered
« Reply #53 on: July 03, 2010, 02:53:56 pm »
Thanks Acacea, took the words right out of my mouth.

There is a world of difference between a roleplay opportunity with hints and nudges and an unkillable monster dumped or even worse left.

The best way to heal rifts of miscommunication, is to communicate. Prefably before and after.

:)
 

Hellblazer

Re: WL frustrated with options offered
« Reply #54 on: July 03, 2010, 05:27:04 pm »
I agree with Acacea. I have been on impromptus that were a real treat to be in, intriguing and very well run. And I have been on impromptus that were not as well run, some left a bad taste. It has to do with experience. One that had left a bad taste on time, the same gm on a later run, after gaining a bit more experience, ran one that was a real treat. So judging on bad experiences is not fair. I have had many fun impromptus, more than I have had bad ones.

Acacea

Re: WL frustrated with options offered
« Reply #55 on: July 05, 2010, 11:54:23 am »
I just happened to notice this reply sorry.

Quote from: Honora
*IF* the option existed to field deity questions, I would do it, absolutely. But I only wrote half the gods, and half of those in conjunction with others, so there would still be time passing while I chased down so and so and reviewed the request with them. I'm not sure it would really save response time.
 
 Nevertheless I did let Ed know I'd be willing to, if he wished. ;)


I'm sorry if this was misunderstood, but the point was that you are on the MMO team as well, and created new life and churches for deities that have hefty lives spanning backwards in NWN. The content that you piled in that happened here rather than in your head are just tiny fractions of what has occurred. You can quote a writeup, but having the summary about the Ivory Hounds didn't help to understand the series that built it and the players that were on it. I am not saying anyone would know this, only that at first an argument could be made, and on second it is not a whole lot different - all forward looking, and still someone who has responsibilities elsewhere... and no, not really saving a whole lot of response time, heh.
 

Lynn1020

Re: WL frustrated with options offered
« Reply #56 on: July 06, 2010, 02:28:52 am »
I've been watching this thread lately.  A lot of interesting points have been made!  But it is only going to get harder and harder for WL to make a difference or anyone for that matter.  There are more WLs now and fewer active GMs.  WL are more common now, easier to obtain than it was years ago when very few characters even reached level 20.

At the same time.. An online game is just like in RL school, politics, workplace etc. At times, if you want to change things or move up, it all depends on who you are friends with or who you know.   In your work place you know which boss to go to if you want to get something done.   Results depend on who you go to.  Some have more pull than others. Some may just put in more effort.  It also may depend on if you are on their good side *winks*.  It is a fact of life.    

Someone hit it on the head with lack of GM activity. There are very few quests on the calendar and a lot of those are CDQs/WLDQs.   There is a list of 20 GM's or so, but some of them you do not see any more.  It may be RL, MMO or just loss of interest.  The fact remains they just are not there.  I haven't been around since the new round DM's and therefore I can't include them in my observations I don't know how active there are.  Sadly there seems to be a trend, after nearly every  DM round old dm's step down, while that is a natural progression it doesn't deal with the problem of Layo lacking active dm's that are out in the world. You can't have changes without DM's there willing to help you and some of the DM's around now are so overworked. No one can do work on the MMO,  work on NwN  and have a real life without  cutting  short on something. At the moment it seems like its NwN is the one getting cut the most, 20 dm's and how many of those are connected to NwN?  I do have to say a BIG kudos for Dezza!  From the calendar it looks like he does the job of many GMs.  Again.. The same with bosses.. some GMs are more approachable  to  ask for help.

Gulnyr was correct when he mentioned DMs do not make calls on the fly like they use to.  Seems many are afraid of making mistakes that have to be 'fixed'.  That is just embarrassing to have to go back and redo something.  There is so much lore and a lot of it is still being rewritten to where no one knows what is current.  How can you make changes when you do not know where things stand now?

It is really hard to change things here. I know it isn't a popular statement but I have to agree with some that SteveMaurer stated.

"So really, you just have to decide whether or not you like this server, and its culture, as it is."

You can continue to stay and try to help make changes and enjoy what is left of NwN or... move on.
 

Dorganath

Re: WL frustrated with options offered
« Reply #57 on: July 06, 2010, 09:47:00 pm »
*comes back after a few days away*

OK, first of all, I was not making generalized statements about impromptus, singling out one of multiple groups of anonymous people or anything of the sort.  I was never implying that all impromptus are perfectly done, that GMs don't mistake "UNKILLABLE MONSTER" for "RP opportunity" sometimes.  That's often a matter of experience, than anything.

I was not implying that all impromptus are shunned by players, not trying to start a bandwagon, and certainly not trying to make any anonymous group of people feel persecuted or ganged up on. I was not implying any of these things or any other things that might have been assumed by my statements.

Except for one.

The assertion was made about how impromptus aren't that common here, that GMs just don't interact with people very much and so on.  The only thing I was trying to illustrate is that there are (unfortunately) reasons for this and they don't have anything to do with a lack of interest on the GM's side of things.  If anything, it is these reasons contribute to a lack of interest, or rather a "why should I bother?" sort of feeling when such criticisms come back repeatedly at the start of some impromptu interaction.  

Your perceptions may vary.

The point being of course that there isn't One Thing that can be said to contribute to the lack or quality of impromptus. In many ways, Layonara is a "closed loop" system, where events beget feedback, which then beget other events that produce other feedback and so on.  GMs and players alike contribute to the state of things, and to point the finger at one group or the other is missing half of the picture...at least.

But anyway, that's sort of flying even further off topic, so I'm going to (for my part) let that one rest.
 

Drizzlin

Re: WL frustrated with options offered
« Reply #58 on: September 25, 2010, 02:54:11 am »
WOOT!!! For the underdog! I hear ya Polak76 when it comes to the dark side of the world of Layonara. It was always fun trying to cause some mess out there!

Quote from: Polak76
I for one disagree with the original post.

Maybe it's beacause in the 6-8 years (god I can't remember how long it's been now, possibly more) I've focused on making evil/dark aligned characters that I've gotten too used to being alone and forgotten.  Was I upset by this...hell no.  I found others like myself and we stuck together, worked hard and eventually got what we deserved.  It made it all the more worth it having put the effort in and I can't thank the team enough for rewarding us with the beautiful temple to name one of them.

Someone raised a thread once a while back about characters under lvl 20 that are epic in their own right.  i was very pleased to see that my old character made it in the group, together with my dark comrads.  You see it's not about having GM's alter the world becuase your character is lvl 30+ and should be god-like becuase you're a WL.  It's more about the influence you have on others around you that is WL not the title and level of the char.

As far as being told what to do these days, mate, we've been told 'no' almost all the time.  Did it stop us...No.  We kept at it and eventually it paid off.  One example is the recent approval of Champions of Corath, Pyrtechon, Baerun...etc.  We worked on this for a long time.  If the team acted on every whim from a high level character then it wouldn't be balanced.  And I won't go into the resources since MYC, ED & Dezza summed it up perfectly.

As mentioned I've been around for a very long time and I've yet to crack lvl 20.  It was only until the last 12 months that things are starting to happen for us Corathites.  I'm also finially doing my first WL.  I don't anticipate I'll ever make it past lvl 30 nor do I expect that I'll run the temple, tilt the balance of light and dark, reach lichedom or sip tea with Corath himself.  As a WL (if i pass) i only expect to influence the people around me, mainly to hate me most of the time, otherwise assist guiding other evil chacaters who want to make waves.  I'm sorry but if I was to expect that being WL means I'm god-like and deserve more than the next man who puts a lot of effort in RP that would be simply selfish.  

Cheers,
Polak76
 

Dremora

Re: WL frustrated with options offered
« Reply #59 on: February 18, 2011, 05:39:08 am »
Just to dip my gobliny whelp opinion in the thread here but I do do alot of grinding, primarily because I hate low level combat as it bores me to tears, secondly because the crafting system is not something I enjoy too much (to each their own right) and because alot of the time layonara isn't full of players. My answer then is to grind and increase my char's strength so I can hang out with others and be useful on quests and combat, because standing there and being so weak that NPCs spawns own you makes the experiance rather dulled down in some cases (alot are higher level than me currently in terms of dark elves).

It is.. without a shadow of a doubt.. ~boring~. However if CNR gathering and bashing in a NPC head with the same animations and same techniques for hours on end is your thing, well whatever but I personally would much rather an impromtu to break the monotomy (mis-spelled prolly but you see what I mean).
If people are getting annoyed at GMs.. perhaps, for those who like to be left alone: Rather than doing a quest without warning, or not doing it at all, just ask the players if they are all alright with doing something 'different' to what their doing. If the answer is a No. Then No. If the answer however is Yes.. ta da.. Quest.