Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks

[Zhofe]

What it all really boils down to is I do not want to be a paladin because I have seen how everyone else plays and views paladins and that is not what I want Quin to be. I am trying to move Quin away from the paladin image that he already has and into a more holy image.

Making Quin into a paladin wouldn't give me a chance to let Quin evolve. Quin is already in essence a Paladin without the abilities.

[Dorganath]

The paladin is really a quite narrow character, and it can be difficult to play properly. For paladin's there's really not much past the straight-and-narrow.  Stray even a bit from your oaths, and you become "fallen".

While the paladin (really all classes) are based upon something or the other from history and/or legend, they tend to be very archetypical in some regards.  Paladins especially so.  Paladins can get caught up so tightly in "the cause" and propriety and whatnot that they have little time, or proficiency, in things like love and relationships.

And as we all know, strong emotions can have profound effects on one's oaths, and paladins are not immune.  A Paladin Quin might have to sacrifice Mirren in order to serve some greater purpose.  I don't see Quin letting that happen, and if he instead chose to save Mirren at the expense of the cause, it's likely that he'd be a paladin no longer (and possibly slip ever-so-slightly toward Evil).

While limited in power, a fighter/cleric has greater flexibility and depth of character than a paladin.  I've always seen clerics as sort of an expression of their diety's will and guidance, whereas paladins are the sword-arms of their dieties. A cleric's role is as much about following doctrine as it is spreading and furthering that doctrine.  A paladin's always seemed to be more about enforcing the doctrine....to me, anyway.

[Leanthar]

Well stated and I agree:
  "I've always seen clerics as sort of an expression of their diety's will and guidance, whereas paladins are the sword-arms of their dieties. A cleric's role is as much about following doctrine as it is spreading and furthering that doctrine. A paladin's always seemed to be more about enforcing the doctrine."

[cappyra]

Thats cool Zhofe...

But... there is no Holier image than that of a Paladin.

I have played with Quin from the begining and he seems through natural progression and RP he has come from a simple Fighter to ... in your words

"Quin is in essence a Paladin without the abilities."

You can also be a Justicer as a Paladin if that was your goal...

It is like my character Derrick.  I started him as a fighter and that was going to be his only class.  Hoever through roleplay and the abilities I chose... I found myself becoming more than just a fighter.  It was a natural transition for me to become a weaponmaster. . .  and part of my choice came from other characters... based on my roleplaying actions.

Quin becoming a Cleric is like Derrick becoming a Ranger. . .  

It kinda makes you go well I can kinda see it... I guess.. but Huh?

But anything is possible...

hehehe I'm done...

Just tryin ta help

Quin would make a GREAT Paladin

Ok Im really done now LOL

[Cattery]

But simply because everyone plays paladins that way doesn't necessarily mean that that's the way they should be played.  When I started playing Delorthari I had groans in the background from all kinds of places, telling me that paladins were stupid clerics with muscles, and why would I want to play a "let's chop in the name of my god" type character?  Yet I maintained (and I've already found with the Malakai incident) that you can get into some great RP and dramatic situations by remaining true to your character's faith, to their training, to their bond.  And of course to their personal interpretation of all that.

I'm not telling you, Zhofe, that you should make Quin a paladin.  However I am reiterating what cappyra said and will tell you that for me, Quin has always seemed a paladin type.  Only you know his heart and his direction, but even his journal (healing by laying on his hands, etc) seemed more like paladin traits to me.  I know you as an RPer well enough to trust the transition won't happen overnight, but it will happen.  

You know, I look over the list of classes in this thread that are being watched, and that's three out of four for me.  If they'd thrown bards in as well, I'd be totally too paranoid to log in at all!  *laugh*

I would ask for a little leniency in certain situations, however.  My cleric... well, read her journal and you'll see that she's very much got issues - issues of faith, of race, of who and what she is, of sanity and acceptance.  The way she looks and acts is very dependant on what happens in the game around her, and if a GM came down and said, "Change, no Lucindite looks or acts that way" I could be justified for saying, "But wait until tomorrow and she might."  Please, I hope that this doesn't become a draconian set of RP manacles - though I'd be interested to see what would happen to her if she was rejected by her Goddess.  On second thought *shudder* I don't think I would.  Neither would Layonara at large.

[ZeroVega]

Hmm.....time for onion lad to drop in his two buds.....
    I'll agree, in game, I usually see Quin as a Paladin type warrior. He's got the whole faith, justice, trust, n' such going for him. Again though, you look at Cleric of Toran they pretty much have the same thing. I agree with the insane warrior in the black guts covered armor that Paladins are the ultimate good, and are warriors of truth and justice (what Quin is). And yet through Quin's journal, and the RP he's recently been doing in game, I've seen him evolve. He's become very strong in his faith, I see him as becoming connected and enlightened by Toran. I could see Quin as wearing clerical robes around, and leading people into battle as a Cleric. Dunno, just thinking about it as Zhofe said, makes me think, Quin does seem to fit more of a clerical role. Though I'll dissagree on one thing "someone" said. Someone said that Paladins are a bit more strict in their faith than clerics. Dunno but I don't really see it. Paladins lead the way in faith, stray but a little, and bamo! You're fallen, but for the LG gods, I think it should be the same with their clerics too. I mean, you endow a Cleric (just an example) Quint for instance, with amazing powers and he strays from his path, doubts his god, or breaks a rule, I'd expect to see some punnishment. If I was a god, I wouldn't be letting my avatar's run round breakin meh rules. (By the way Quint it was just an example, I know that's not likely to happen .
  Wow, that post really stunk. Don't think I ever got the point I wanted to make across. Oh well. ZV-

[Cattery]

To me, paladins tend to be more strict in their physical discipline, but their faith is an outward thing, a discipline borne of the body and spirit, not mind and spirit.  A cleric's is a mental discipline, intelligence combined with spirit.

Both will meditate, both will be as aesetic as each other.  Each is as devout as the other.  In fact, all of these classes in this thread are or should be devoted to their callings... unless they're falling or have mitigating circumstances.

[EdTheKet]

As much information as the Handbook provides it still lacks some minor details on some deity's. An example being favored colors of the church of Aragen. If there are no favored colors perhaps it should state it as such.

[/FONT]
You are correct that there is no mention of colors for Aragen in the Handbook, it states the following: “Aragenites prefer simple clothing when travelling.”

However, this is not by oversight, this is by design. Aragen doesn’t care about what race they belong to (see ‘worshipers’ part in Aragen’s write-up), nor does he care about how his followers look. All he is really concerned with is the pursuit of Knowledge, how you look is not really relevant. Same for Az’atta, what you wear isn’t important, as long as you display very clearly that you follow her. That’s why there are no colors mentioned for her either.  For the other deites that have no colors they tend to dress in mentioned in the Handbook, it does indeed say why (e.g. Xeen: “The color of what they wear doesn't matter, as long as it makes them look desirable.”)
   

Leanthar - 1/13/2005 3:19 PM [/FONT]
    Cattery, Paladins in history are known to be the cutting figures that represent their gods.  From the Description of Aeridin:  (Clergy Favored Weapon and Clothing: In general, clerics of Aeridin prefer to wear white robes. They’ll only don armor when absolutely necessary, and even then with great hesitation. However, if they do, they’ll wear full plate, either coated with a layer of silver or – more rarely – made from mithril. Their armor is usually embossed with golden leaves. In general, they wield quarterstaffs and shun the use of maiming weapons like axes or greatswords. A necklace with a golden leaf is often worn around the neck as a holy symbol.)  Clearly that states for Clerics.  In the case of a Paladin of Aeridin you would probably use any single handled sword (long sword for instance) but you would stay away from the 2 handed swords and Axes in general (maiming thing).  I don’t think you would use a bow though, although I would need to put more thought in to it, my initial thinking is you would not use a bow; where is the honor in fighting a foe from the distance is what a high and mighty Paladin (just about any Paladin of any faith) would think.  You would wear the necklace and you would use a shield of Aeridin.  And your armor would present Aeridin as well.  And you would never attack first, ever.  A Paladin (and champions as well) are the elite representation of their gods and they will do everything they can to properly portray their god (in any manner) and they will always speak of him at any given time.

 [/FONT]And to add to that, why not have your paladin of Aeridin wield a quarterstaff?   That would also be in line with three things:  1) the part in the dogma that says: “Seek out the undead and put them to rest, so they can rejoin the Great Cycle.” Quarterstaves are more effective against undead (blunt weapon) than swords.  2) the part of the dogma that says: “Do not harm or kill others except in the most dire of circumstances.” Quarterstaves are less ‘bloody” weapons, you can more easily use those for disabling/incapacitating than you can do with swords, so you do less ‘harm’.  3) the first sentence of the Laws of Aeridin the paladin of Aeridin goes by: “Devote yourself to life. If there is any way to prevent death and preserve life, it is the way of Aeridin.” That paladin is probably more likely to just disable/incapacitate an opponent like hitting him in the head with his staff and keeping him alive, instead of killing him with a sword. (kind of the same point as #2).

[Cattery]

I thought about a quarterstaff, and will probably progress to that, however it's quite hard to get a quarterstaff as a beginning character, if you want to RP coming to Hlint without knowing anyone or anything about the place.  There's nowhere to buy a basic one unless you want to hit stuff with a fishing pole, which strikes me as ridiculous.

Can't hold the nifty pretty shield with a quarterstaff though.  

[Leanthar]

Interesting, you can't buy a basic quarterstaff?  That is an oversight.  Please post that in the v2 bug reports (along with other basic stuff that can not be purchased).

[Zhofe]

Favored equipment isn't necessarily what is used. Just look at Celgar, he uses a longsword and he is a cleric of Lucinda.

Use something that makes sense for your character.

[Leanthar]

Zhofe, that is why I posted this.  We are going to start cracking down on stuff exactly like you mentioned.  If you want to be a Cleric of a deity then follow the deity dogma etc.  That is why this thread was posted... it was my way of giving a heads up.

[EdTheKet]

Favored equipment isn't necessarily what is used

  But it should be, it's in the Handbook for a reason. People should have a good RP reason to have something else.

[Dorganath]

Leanthar - 1/13/2005  3:55 PM    Zhofe, that is why I posted this.  We are going to start cracking down on stuff exactly like you mentioned.  If you want to be a Cleric of a deity then follow the deity dogma etc.  That is why this thread was posted... it was my way of giving a heads up.
 

 So I guess I'm not the only one who remembers when clerics NEVER wielded edged/pointed weapons...EVER. This 3rd Edition is so disorienting.

[Gilrod]

On the favored weapon thing...

I guess I have to re-think how my cleric fights.  My Lucindite ran around in full plate with shield and a long sword for ages (months before the new version of the handbook was published).

The enforcement means that I can not generally fight with plate and longsword.  Normally I run around in robes.  My cleric (despite how long I have played it) is still a relatively low level and cannot wear/weild many of the enchanted items.  The current descriptions says nothing about wearing armor at all.  So does that mean that my cleric can not wear armor anymore or weild a shield (since they "favor" quaterstaffs)?

[lonnarin]

Cattery - 1/13/2005  1:49 PM

I thought about a quarterstaff, and will probably progress to that, however it's quite hard to get a quarterstaff as a beginning character, if you want to RP coming to Hlint without knowing anyone or anything about the place.  There's nowhere to buy a basic one unless you want to hit stuff with a fishing pole, which strikes me as ridiculous.

------
Hey!  Don't knock the fishingpole!  For only 2 gp and doing up to 6 dmg a hit, there's none the better deal.  Besides, folk like rogues can devise such sinister places to stick ordinary objects that a doublehanded flaming greatsword could never come close to the lasting damage it does to a foe.  On another server, my demonically possessed cannibal rogue managed to beat a woman to death with a baby he was holding hostage, and frequently skewered haughty paladins with umbrellas through the larynx. (oh Wiscoin, ye shall be missed!)

A most favorite Klingon proverb, EVERYTHING'S A WEAPON!  How else could you throw a decent weastern barfight?

I wish I could throw standard cookin salt or sand into opponents' eyes to blind them.

-----

[Zhofe]

I believe Cel had a good reason for his ...

But, what I was saying was, if there is a good reason, there should be SOME flexibility.

It should be the exception rather than the rule of course. There is no RP excuse for breaking the dogma or not bearing the colors for these classes though. Weapon is a bit more situational that color. A cleric or paladin should always be able to display the colors, but may be skilled in a weapon other than one their god would prefer.

I am just glad that Toran likes longswords.

[Highway Man]

Are you saying that you are going to be forcing players to use the exact colors of their characters deity and the shield pattern that goes for that deity among other things?

This all just sounds overly strict to me. It seems like you are focusing on the things that really shouldn’t matter. Each character is unique and these rules and dogmas should be guide lines for role-playing certain classes. Forcing everyone to look the same and act the same just doesn’t seem right to me.

If you didn’t want clerics to use certain weapons then you should have made a rule that says clerics can only use blunt weapons and the weapon of their chosen god. Sounds lot easier then grabbing players in the middle of game and basically telling them they are wrong and have to change and that goes for anything along those lines. A lot of the handbooks rules as far as these classes you are “cracking down on” seem to have been written so that players could interpret them on their own and with in reason of course of course.

Now as far as role-playing who is to really say who is right and who is wrong. Being that each player and character is different and has their own history, personalities, and goals who is to really say that one person is better then another or that some one role-plays better?

I think everyone should remember that we are here to have fun and to not let the little stuff like what color armor some one is wearing or what weapon they are using turn this server into and overly strict place where you have to watch everything you say or do for fear that big brother will come crashing down on you.

Thanks for reading and see you all in game.  

[Leanthar]

Highway man, you are correct.  We are here to have fun and RP and have fun etc. etc.  And yes, everybody is unique.  We are not going to strictly enforce each and every aspect of dogmas and such.
  However, the reason I put this out there is so that people start paying attention to the deities and dogmas.  It WAS RARE that people tried to RP it or anything like the deities--at all.  Deities give powers to the classes (some of them) and in return they demand support in various flavors (that is the rule of D&D and the class system over all).  As such it needs to be RP'd.  We have players (still, though some are starting to learn) that took it all for granted, did not do the research, did not care to do the research, and never supported their deity.  Heck I asked a number of them in game questions (very simple questions) and they did not know answers.  So.... yes, we are here to have fun--no doubt about it.  But we are also here to RP, and part of that is knowing what you are RP'ing.

[EdTheKet]

Well, Lucinda is about magic, healing, trickery and knowledge, not about combat (as in melee combat) So if a Lucindite cleric would need to go into combat, it would be only for a very good reason, and not as frontline fighter, as that's not their goddess's thing. For frontline fighting clerics there are other gods.
  So no, what this boils down to is that they wouldn't wear full-plate and wield swords (or axes or whatever), they’d use their spells to support their companions (like summons and healing).
  I think the quarterstaves could extend to dire maces though, as that's a staff/mace combo.
 

Forcing everyone to look the same and act the same just doesn’t seem right to me. If you didn’t want clerics to use certain weapons then you should have made a rule that says clerics can only use blunt weapons and the weapon of their chosen god. [/FONT]

[/FONT]
This is not about forcing all people to act the same, this is about being able to also see in game if somebody worships let’s say Beryl or Toran.
Every deity has his/her own personality, dogma and ideals, so there should be a difference among clerics of different faiths, something which is lacking somewhat.
This is a way to make people more aware of what their character (cleric/monk/paladin/druid/champion) should actually stand for as it should be somewhat of a reflection of the deity they follow. After all, most of these classes get their abilities from their deity.
  Layonara is an RP server, and this is a way to help people play their character better to get more insight into the dogmas/rules behind everything.
 

A lot of the handbooks rules as far as these classes you are “cracking down on” seem to have been written so that players could interpret them on their own and with in reason of course of course.

[/FONT]
  It was indeed written to leave things open to interpretation, and you’ve touched upon the heart of the matter: ‘Within reason’.
As Leanthar stated in the first post of this thread, there are a lot of players not following their deities dogma/rules etc, who are not interpreting ‘within reason’, a lot don't even know about them. This is a means to point them out to them and help them out.
 

Now as far as role-playing who is to really say who is right and who is wrong. Being that each player and character is different and has their own history, personalities, and goals who is to really say that one person is better then another or that some one role-plays better? I think everyone should remember that we are here to have fun and to not let the little stuff like what color armor some one is wearing or what weapon they are using turn this server into and overly strict place where you have to watch everything you say or do for fear that big brother will come crashing down on you. Thanks for reading and see you all in game.

[/FONT]
  Of course we’re here to have fun, that’s the foundation of it all and the reason for playing. But bear in mind that the basis of this server is RP, and that to enhance the RP experience we request people to RP the faiths of the gods they follow to make the world feel more ‘real’. Also consider that also in the real world organizations have uniforms or outfits they wear to set them apart from ‘normal’ people and to identify themselves to others by the way they dress.
Clerics of Az’atta going out to kill everything, or clerics of Rofirein traveling with wanted criminals (just some random examples) are not things that would fit.