The World of Layonara

The NWN Persistent World => Server Rules => Topic started by: Leanthar on January 12, 2005, 01:41:00 pm

Title: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: Leanthar on January 12, 2005, 01:41:00 pm
Hello everybody,
  I want to ask ALL players that are playing Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks (with a deity) to read up on the descriptions of your deity, including dogma's, outfits, etc.
  The team is now starting to watch these classes/PrC's closely.
  We have a significant amount of players that do not know how to play these classes or are not following their deities dogma/rules etc.  This will be corrected as we watch and try to help people along.  But we need your help/cooperation when we speak to you about things, we are only trying to help--please don't argue with us, just listen and learn and try to adjust and RP better.  Those classes/PrC's are very important to the Patheon of the world and will be watched closely so that RP is enforced on them pretty strictly.
  If you do not understand the dogma or need to get things clarified please ask somebody on the team, that is what we are here for after all.  EdTheKet is a GREAT source of info so he would be a good place to start.
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: EdTheKet on January 12, 2005, 02:24:00 pm
Feel free to send me a PM or start a post on something.
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: Ozy_Llewellyn on January 12, 2005, 02:40:00 pm
And I'd be happy to provide some advice, thou Ed is definatly the grandmaster at the by the handbook.
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: Cattery on January 12, 2005, 03:11:00 pm
A quick question on Paladins.  Would a paladin of Aeridin, being a holy warrior, eschew the sword and armour and utilise what is said for the clerics, or are they a special case?  My paladin uses a sword, yes, and as an elf she uses a bow as well - is this wrong?

I like the way her armour looks.  *snivels pathetically*  ;)
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: Zhofe on January 12, 2005, 03:25:00 pm
Well, I have been thinking of dual classing Quin to a cleric at level 12. First off, would this even be possible? I was thinking of running a CDQ soon and then level as a fighter, trying to learn the ways of Toran till level 12, and then dual classing to a cleric.

I was planning on taking the domains of Protection and War, and being a sort of leader type character (much like what Quin already is, but now with divine spells) And keeping on leveling as a cleric until 20 where I would take 1 for 1 until .... well ... actually, considering my leveling speed, I will probably never make 20.

I was wondering if this made sense as a follower of Toran. Quin has always been dedicated to serving good and protecting the innocent, and has lead many people into battle before. Many people have told him that he should be a paladin, but I can't really see that in Quin. (well, atleast not as much)

What I want to know is -

A)Would it be possible for me to do this
B)What sort of RP would I have to go through while learning the ways of Toran
C) Are there any things I would not be able to do as a cleric that I was able to do as a fighter
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: Thunder Pants on January 12, 2005, 03:37:00 pm
Quote
Cattery - 1/12/2005  3:11 PM

A quick question on Paladins.  Would a paladin of Aeridin, being a holy warrior, eschew the sword and armour and utilise what is said for the clerics, or are they a special case?  My paladin uses a sword, yes, and as an elf she uses a bow as well - is this wrong?

I like the way her armour looks.  *snivels pathetically*  ;)


well i look at it this way, as i also have a Paladin of Aeridin there really isn't anything wrong with using swords and bows or wearing armor, but, there is something wrong if said paladin goes out and slays everything that moves, remember killing is last resort, if you can walk past them do so
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: Cattery on January 12, 2005, 03:42:00 pm
ThunderPants, that's pretty much the way I see things as well so I'm pleased to have some backup.
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: Nytefoll on January 12, 2005, 04:25:00 pm
as much information as the Handbook provides it still lacks some minor details on some deity's.  An example being favored colors of the church of Aragen.  If there are no favored colors perhaps it shouls state it as such.
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: Leanthar on January 12, 2005, 05:10:00 pm
The favored colors are the colors of the shields and icons that represent the deities.  All of them have colors and emblems.
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: Leanthar on January 13, 2005, 06:19:00 am
Zhofe,
  You can definetly request a CDQ in order to learn the ways of Toran.  Yes, you can dual class to a cleric if the CDQ is successful.  And yes as you outlined it you would be a 12 Fighter/8 Cleric at 20th.  That would be fine and then you could go 1/1 as you level up from there.  You would need to start learning the ways of Toran, speaking to the Paladins and Clerics out there, visit the temples, research books etc.  Then run the CDQ and you should be fine.  Once you are a cleric you are now representing Toran so you will be watch over by him—represent him purely and properly and all will be fine.
  Cattery,
  Paladins in history are known to be the cutting figures that represent their gods.  From the Description of Aeridin:  (Clergy Favored Weapon and Clothing: [/b]In general, clerics of Aeridin prefer to wear white robes. They’ll only don armor when absolutely necessary, and even then with great hesitation. However, if they do, they’ll wear full plate, either coated with a layer of silver or – more rarely – made from mithril. Their armor is usually embossed with golden leaves. In general, they wield quarterstaffs and shun the use of maiming weapons like axes or greatswords. A necklace with a golden leaf is often worn around the neck as a holy symbol.)
    Clearly that states for Clerics.  In the case of a Paladin of Aeridin you would probably use any single handled sword (long sword for instance) but you would stay away from the 2 handed swords and Axes in general (maiming thing).  I don’t think you would use a bow though, although I would need to put more thought in to it, my initial thinking is you would not use a bow; where is the honor in fighting a foe from the distance is what a high and mighty Paladin (just about any Paladin of any faith) would think.  You would wear the necklace and you would use a shield of Aeridin.  And your armor would present Aeridin as well.  And you would never attack first, ever.  A Paladin (and champions as well) are the elite representation of their gods and they will do everything they can to properly portray their god (in any manner) and they will always speak of him at any given time.
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: Ar7 on January 13, 2005, 06:33:00 am
Besides to what Leanthar said, it is almost impossible to use a bow in full plate.
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: Cattery on January 13, 2005, 06:46:00 am
Well, my character doesn't use full plate, but that's all quite useful, thank you.  With the exception of the bow reasoning, this aligns with what I've been playing already. *phew*  The bow thought has come from the thought that elves are naturally able to use the longsword and the bow, and would have been equally trained in both.  They would use whatever they could to keep the enemy at bay (and thus away from any innocents travelling with them) or to take any enemy out that is attacking another that they are otherwise too far away to get to in time.

Aeridin is predominantly an elven god, and it made sense to me at the time for an elven paladin of Him to be trained in both.  But I can change that - she mostly goes charging in with sword and shield anyway (is it any wonder she's my first character with a death token?  hehe).

I'll have an Aeridin shield the moment I can get one.  I've already had a DM look into it for me, but that's one of the really buggy ones.  :)

Thank you for the feedback.  :)
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: Leanthar on January 13, 2005, 06:54:00 am
You are correct about the bow (as you are an elf), you would have been raised on it and know it very well.  And perhaps in the face of great evil and desperate times you would pull it out (in order to save one of importance and a very difficult time--ie not very often would you use it).
  A GM can give you a shield of Aeridin.  A GM can give all of those shields... oh.  Right I remember that bug (1 of 3 that is not in there so I hear).  I think Orth found the problem the other day and now I need to figure out how to force the fix (it will be a hak pak download for certain). 
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: Dorganath on January 13, 2005, 07:01:00 am
Since we're all talking about this....some questions about druids

I'm assuming that whichever is more restrictive (class, race or diety) will be the limiting factor in deciding whether or not someone is following the proper ethos, yes?

For example, something new to 3rd Ed. (and NWN as well) is the technical ability of elven druids to wield a bow....in other words, the elf gets the weapon feat even though the class disallows it.  Personally, I'm fairly hardcore, old-school when it comes to druids and their weapons (I'm an old scimitar/sling guy myself).  I'm assuming this is discouraged or prohibited in the new watchfulness, correct?  

Also, I'm assuming that if a druid followed someone like Aeridin, they're different from a cleric in that they're not necessarily a Druid OR Aeridin but a Druid following Aeridin. As such, there wouldn't really be a reason for a druid who followed Aeridin to run around armorless or in white garments as there would a cleric.

I guess in general, the question is: where clerics and paladins have to stricly abide by a particular ethos, code-of-conduct and appearance, the druid is still first and foremost a druid despite his/her diety, and as such, the druids general actions should reflect the chosen diety in the context of being a druid first, right?
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: Leanthar on January 13, 2005, 07:23:00 am
"...I guess in general, the question is: where clerics and paladins have to stricly abide by a particular ethos, code-of-conduct and appearance, the druid is still first and foremost a druid despite his/her diety, and as such, the druids general actions should reflect the chosen diety in the context of being a druid first, right?..."
  Yep, 100% correct.  Druids are Druids first and foremost.
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: cappyra on January 13, 2005, 08:48:00 am
Zhofe

Through my interaction with Quin...  I think, and obviously according to your post others think, that your actions and demeanor are very in line with being a Paladin.  I could much rather see Quin following the path of the Holy Paladin of Toran than a Cleric.  Your Leadership, Extreme Devotion to Toran, Sense of Honor, Vigilence and your training and skill as a fighter seem more in line with the pursuit of Paladinhood.  

I just find it difficult to see Quin as a cleric...  but hey thats just my opinion...

The only "problem" that I could forsee is that as a Paladin of Toran, you must place his will above ALL.  Above Wealth, above Self, above Love...

But it might make a great roleplay as Quin struggles between his Faith and his Heart...  which will he choose...  does he have to choose?    Will he serve Toran and the Land...  or serve his own desires...

Will the gods take note...  Toran and Ilsare have no great love for one another. . .

Perhaps one could convert. . .

Tune in tomorrow for another episode of...  "As Layonara Turns"

/Que cheesy soap opera music
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: Zhofe on January 13, 2005, 09:22:00 am
Gah! Everyone wants Quin to be a paladin!

I see him as being more than that though. A paladin is a humble follower of the church, doing what he sees as right. I want Quin to rise above that and lead the people, instead of serving them. Just my thoughts.

As for Toran and Ilsare having no love for each other, that is on the Toran side only really. Ilsare is indifferent to Toran and if Quin's purpose for serving Toran happens to be love for a follower of Ilsare, I see no problem.

As for what Quin would choose between love or duty? Well, Quin is young, but a bit more wise than most. He would not settle for one or the other however. He would have both or die trying.

Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: Aurhinius on January 13, 2005, 09:29:00 am
It may not be a problem for him but remember that Toran is the one that grants any divine powers you may have and he does not grant those to just anyone. Especially someone that follows him under false pretences. Honesty is of course a virtue of a toranite paladin.
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: Zhofe on January 13, 2005, 10:11:00 am
Quin's honesty has never been in question. I have thought alot about all of this. I do not take the idea of becoming a cleric lightly. I would take becoming a paladin even less lightly. I did not just flippantly decide this, and I have been slowly bringing Quin into the realization of it.
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: cappyra on January 13, 2005, 11:34:00 am
Quote
Zhofe - 1/13/2005  9:22 AM

Gah! Everyone wants Quin to be a paladin!

I see him as being more than that though. A paladin is a humble follower of the church, doing what he sees as right. I want Quin to rise above that and lead the people, instead of serving them. Just my thoughts.



More than a Paladin of Toran?  The Paladin more than any other is the Epitome of Toran.  A crusader that has been blessed by Toran and selected to walk forth as a living symbol of the diety.  A Paladin serves the people BY LEADING them and providing a shining example for all to emulate.  Humility is a virtue no doubt about it...  but a Paladin does not do what HE sees is right (Chaotic Good) he does what Toran sees is right (Lawful Good).

In any case...  the choice is of course yours to make.  Just offering an opinion.  If everyone wants you to be a Paladin...  there is probably a good reason... heh...  your mind may wander one way... but your RP seems to go another. . .

As far as the deites. . .  perhaps a GM (Leanthar) could clarify

Under Toran, Ilsare is listed as Unfriendly

Under Ilsare, Toran is listed as Friendly

*final note concerning Love:  While the Paladin is modeled after the Medieval Holy Knight...  I do not think that Toran would have you be chaste in order to serve him.  Things like Honor and Loyality go hand in hand with Love.  Love between two people as long as it was pure would not in anyway weaken the chosen of Toran...  but would give him/her strength.  

However above ALL is the Will of Toran.

Heh... just my 2 cents...

Funny stuff from the guy who plays an Insane Homicidal Maniac eh?  LOL
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: Zhofe on January 13, 2005, 11:56:00 am
What it all really boils down to is I do not want to be a paladin because I have seen how everyone else plays and views paladins and that is not what I want Quin to be. I am trying to move Quin away from the paladin image that he already has and into a more holy image.

Making Quin into a paladin wouldn't give me a chance to let Quin evolve. Quin is already in essence a Paladin without the abilities.
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: Dorganath on January 13, 2005, 12:40:00 pm
The paladin is really a quite narrow character, and it can be difficult to play properly. For paladin's there's really not much past the straight-and-narrow.  Stray even a bit from your oaths, and you become "fallen".

While the paladin (really all classes) are based upon something or the other from history and/or legend, they tend to be very archetypical in some regards.  Paladins especially so.  Paladins can get caught up so tightly in "the cause" and propriety and whatnot that they have little time, or proficiency, in things like love and relationships.

And as we all know, strong emotions can have profound effects on one's oaths, and paladins are not immune.  A Paladin Quin might have to sacrifice Mirren in order to serve some greater purpose.  I don't see Quin letting that happen, and if he instead chose to save Mirren at the expense of the cause, it's likely that he'd be a paladin no longer (and possibly slip ever-so-slightly toward Evil).

While limited in power, a fighter/cleric has greater flexibility and depth of character than a paladin.  I've always seen clerics as sort of an expression of their diety's will and guidance, whereas paladins are the sword-arms of their dieties. A cleric's role is as much about following doctrine as it is spreading and furthering that doctrine.  A paladin's always seemed to be more about enforcing the doctrine....to me, anyway.
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: Leanthar on January 13, 2005, 12:44:00 pm
Well stated and I agree:
  "I've always seen clerics as sort of an expression of their diety's will and guidance, whereas paladins are the sword-arms of their dieties. A cleric's role is as much about following doctrine as it is spreading and furthering that doctrine. A paladin's always seemed to be more about enforcing the doctrine."
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: cappyra on January 13, 2005, 12:51:00 pm
Thats cool Zhofe...

But... there is no Holier image than that of a Paladin.

I have played with Quin from the begining and he seems through natural progression and RP he has come from a simple Fighter to ... in your words

"Quin is in essence a Paladin without the abilities."

You can also be a Justicer as a Paladin if that was your goal...

It is like my character Derrick.  I started him as a fighter and that was going to be his only class.  Hoever through roleplay and the abilities I chose... I found myself becoming more than just a fighter.  It was a natural transition for me to become a weaponmaster. . .  and part of my choice came from other characters... based on my roleplaying actions.

Quin becoming a Cleric is like Derrick becoming a Ranger. . .  

It kinda makes you go well I can kinda see it... I guess.. but Huh?

But anything is possible...

hehehe I'm done...

Just tryin ta help

Quin would make a GREAT Paladin

Ok Im really done now LOL

Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: Cattery on January 13, 2005, 12:53:00 pm
But simply because everyone plays paladins that way doesn't necessarily mean that that's the way they should be played.  When I started playing Delorthari I had groans in the background from all kinds of places, telling me that paladins were stupid clerics with muscles, and why would I want to play a "let's chop in the name of my god" type character?  Yet I maintained (and I've already found with the Malakai incident) that you can get into some great RP and dramatic situations by remaining true to your character's faith, to their training, to their bond.  And of course to their personal interpretation of all that.

I'm not telling you, Zhofe, that you should make Quin a paladin.  However I am reiterating what cappyra said and will tell you that for me, Quin has always seemed a paladin type.  Only you know his heart and his direction, but even his journal (healing by laying on his hands, etc) seemed more like paladin traits to me.  I know you as an RPer well enough to trust the transition won't happen overnight, but it will happen.  

You know, I look over the list of classes in this thread that are being watched, and that's three out of four for me.  If they'd thrown bards in as well, I'd be totally too paranoid to log in at all!  *laugh*

I would ask for a little leniency in certain situations, however.  My cleric... well, read her journal and you'll see that she's very much got issues - issues of faith, of race, of who and what she is, of sanity and acceptance.  The way she looks and acts is very dependant on what happens in the game around her, and if a GM came down and said, "Change, no Lucindite looks or acts that way" I could be justified for saying, "But wait until tomorrow and she might."  Please, I hope that this doesn't become a draconian set of RP manacles - though I'd be interested to see what would happen to her if she was rejected by her Goddess.  On second thought *shudder* I don't think I would.  Neither would Layonara at large.
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: ZeroVega on January 13, 2005, 01:24:00 pm
Hmm.....time for onion lad to drop in his two buds.....
    I'll agree, in game, I usually see Quin as a Paladin type warrior. He's got the whole faith, justice, trust, n' such going for him. Again though, you look at Cleric of Toran they pretty much have the same thing. I agree with the insane warrior in the black guts covered armor that Paladins are the ultimate good, and are warriors of truth and justice (what Quin is). And yet through Quin's journal, and the RP he's recently been doing in game, I've seen him evolve. He's become very strong in his faith, I see him as becoming connected and enlightened by Toran. I could see Quin as wearing clerical robes around, and leading people into battle as a Cleric. Dunno, just thinking about it as Zhofe said, makes me think, Quin does seem to fit more of a clerical role. Though I'll dissagree on one thing "someone" said. Someone said that Paladins are a bit more strict in their faith than clerics. Dunno but I don't really see it. Paladins lead the way in faith, stray but a little, and bamo! You're fallen, but for the LG gods, I think it should be the same with their clerics too. I mean, you endow a Cleric (just an example) Quint for instance, with amazing powers and he strays from his path, doubts his god, or breaks a rule, I'd expect to see some punnishment. If I was a god, I wouldn't be letting my avatar's run round breakin meh rules. (By the way Quint it was just an example, I know that's not likely to happen :)).
  Wow, that post really stunk. Don't think I ever got the point I wanted to make across. Oh well. ZV-
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: Cattery on January 13, 2005, 01:31:00 pm
To me, paladins tend to be more strict in their physical discipline, but their faith is an outward thing, a discipline borne of the body and spirit, not mind and spirit.  A cleric's is a mental discipline, intelligence combined with spirit.

Both will meditate, both will be as aesetic as each other.  Each is as devout as the other.  In fact, all of these classes in this thread are or should be devoted to their callings... unless they're falling or have mitigating circumstances.
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: EdTheKet on January 13, 2005, 01:33:00 pm
Quote
As much information as the Handbook provides it still lacks some minor details on some deity's. An example being favored colors of the church of Aragen. If there are no favored colors perhaps it should state it as such.
[/FONT]
You are correct that there is no mention of colors for Aragen in the Handbook, it states the following: “Aragenites prefer simple clothing when travelling.”

However, this is not by oversight, this is by design. Aragen doesn’t care about what race they belong to (see ‘worshipers’ part in Aragen’s write-up), nor does he care about how his followers look. All he is really concerned with is the pursuit of Knowledge, how you look is not really relevant. Same for Az’atta, what you wear isn’t important, as long as you display very clearly that you follow her. That’s why there are no colors mentioned for her either.  For the other deites that have no colors they tend to dress in mentioned in the Handbook, it does indeed say why (e.g. Xeen: “The color of what they wear doesn't matter, as long as it makes them look desirable.”)
   
Quote
Leanthar - 1/13/2005 3:19 PM [/FONT]
    Cattery, Paladins in history are known to be the cutting figures that represent their gods.  From the Description of Aeridin:  (Clergy Favored Weapon and Clothing: In general, clerics of Aeridin prefer to wear white robes. They’ll only don armor when absolutely necessary, and even then with great hesitation. However, if they do, they’ll wear full plate, either coated with a layer of silver or – more rarely – made from mithril. Their armor is usually embossed with golden leaves. In general, they wield quarterstaffs and shun the use of maiming weapons like axes or greatswords. A necklace with a golden leaf is often worn around the neck as a holy symbol.)  Clearly that states for Clerics.  In the case of a Paladin of Aeridin you would probably use any single handled sword (long sword for instance) but you would stay away from the 2 handed swords and Axes in general (maiming thing).  I don’t think you would use a bow though, although I would need to put more thought in to it, my initial thinking is you would not use a bow; where is the honor in fighting a foe from the distance is what a high and mighty Paladin (just about any Paladin of any faith) would think.  You would wear the necklace and you would use a shield of Aeridin.  And your armor would present Aeridin as well.  And you would never attack first, ever.  A Paladin (and champions as well) are the elite representation of their gods and they will do everything they can to properly portray their god (in any manner) and they will always speak of him at any given time.
 [/FONT]And to add to that, why not have your paladin of Aeridin wield a quarterstaff?   That would also be in line with three things:  1) the part in the dogma that says: “Seek out the undead and put them to rest, so they can rejoin the Great Cycle.” Quarterstaves are more effective against undead (blunt weapon) than swords.  2) the part of the dogma that says: “Do not harm or kill others except in the most dire of circumstances.” Quarterstaves are less ‘bloody” weapons, you can more easily use those for disabling/incapacitating than you can do with swords, so you do less ‘harm’.  3) the first sentence of the Laws of Aeridin the paladin of Aeridin goes by: “Devote yourself to life. If there is any way to prevent death and preserve life, it is the way of Aeridin.” That paladin is probably more likely to just disable/incapacitate an opponent like hitting him in the head with his staff and keeping him alive, instead of killing him with a sword. (kind of the same point as #2).
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: Cattery on January 13, 2005, 01:49:00 pm
I thought about a quarterstaff, and will probably progress to that, however it's quite hard to get a quarterstaff as a beginning character, if you want to RP coming to Hlint without knowing anyone or anything about the place.  There's nowhere to buy a basic one unless you want to hit stuff with a fishing pole, which strikes me as ridiculous.

Can't hold the nifty pretty shield with a quarterstaff though.  ;)
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: Leanthar on January 13, 2005, 01:52:00 pm
Interesting, you can't buy a basic quarterstaff?  That is an oversight.  Please post that in the v2 bug reports (along with other basic stuff that can not be purchased).
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: Zhofe on January 13, 2005, 01:53:00 pm
Favored equipment isn't necessarily what is used. Just look at Celgar, he uses a longsword and he is a cleric of Lucinda.

Use something that makes sense for your character.
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: Leanthar on January 13, 2005, 01:55:00 pm
Zhofe, that is why I posted this.  We are going to start cracking down on stuff exactly like you mentioned.  If you want to be a Cleric of a deity then follow the deity dogma etc.  That is why this thread was posted... it was my way of giving a heads up.
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: EdTheKet on January 13, 2005, 01:58:00 pm
Quote
Favored equipment isn't necessarily what is used

  But it should be, it's in the Handbook for a reason. People should have a good RP reason to have something else.
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: Dorganath on January 13, 2005, 02:10:00 pm
Quote
Leanthar - 1/13/2005  3:55 PM    Zhofe, that is why I posted this.  We are going to start cracking down on stuff exactly like you mentioned.  If you want to be a Cleric of a deity then follow the deity dogma etc.  That is why this thread was posted... it was my way of giving a heads up.
 
 So I guess I'm not the only one who remembers when clerics NEVER wielded edged/pointed weapons...EVER. This 3rd Edition is so disorienting. ;)
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: Gilrod on January 13, 2005, 02:10:00 pm
On the favored weapon thing...

I guess I have to re-think how my cleric fights.  My Lucindite ran around in full plate with shield and a long sword for ages (months before the new version of the handbook was published).

The enforcement means that I can not generally fight with plate and longsword.  Normally I run around in robes.  My cleric (despite how long I have played it) is still a relatively low level and cannot wear/weild many of the enchanted items.  The current descriptions says nothing about wearing armor at all.  So does that mean that my cleric can not wear armor anymore or weild a shield (since they "favor" quaterstaffs)?

Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: lonnarin on January 13, 2005, 02:12:00 pm
Quote
Cattery - 1/13/2005  1:49 PM

I thought about a quarterstaff, and will probably progress to that, however it's quite hard to get a quarterstaff as a beginning character, if you want to RP coming to Hlint without knowing anyone or anything about the place.  There's nowhere to buy a basic one unless you want to hit stuff with a fishing pole, which strikes me as ridiculous.

------
Hey!  Don't knock the fishingpole!  For only 2 gp and doing up to 6 dmg a hit, there's none the better deal.  Besides, folk like rogues can devise such sinister places to stick ordinary objects that a doublehanded flaming greatsword could never come close to the lasting damage it does to a foe.  On another server, my demonically possessed cannibal rogue managed to beat a woman to death with a baby he was holding hostage, and frequently skewered haughty paladins with umbrellas through the larynx. (oh Wiscoin, ye shall be missed!)

A most favorite Klingon proverb, EVERYTHING'S A WEAPON!  How else could you throw a decent weastern barfight?

I wish I could throw standard cookin salt or sand into opponents' eyes to blind them. :)

-----
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: Zhofe on January 13, 2005, 02:13:00 pm
I believe Cel had a good reason for his ...

But, what I was saying was, if there is a good reason, there should be SOME flexibility.

It should be the exception rather than the rule of course. There is no RP excuse for breaking the dogma or not bearing the colors for these classes though. Weapon is a bit more situational that color. A cleric or paladin should always be able to display the colors, but may be skilled in a weapon other than one their god would prefer.

I am just glad that Toran likes longswords.
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: Highway Man on January 13, 2005, 02:42:00 pm
Are you saying that you are going to be forcing players to use the exact colors of their characters deity and the shield pattern that goes for that deity among other things?

This all just sounds overly strict to me. It seems like you are focusing on the things that really shouldn’t matter. Each character is unique and these rules and dogmas should be guide lines for role-playing certain classes. Forcing everyone to look the same and act the same just doesn’t seem right to me.

If you didn’t want clerics to use certain weapons then you should have made a rule that says clerics can only use blunt weapons and the weapon of their chosen god. Sounds lot easier then grabbing players in the middle of game and basically telling them they are wrong and have to change and that goes for anything along those lines. A lot of the handbooks rules as far as these classes you are “cracking down on” seem to have been written so that players could interpret them on their own and with in reason of course of course.

Now as far as role-playing who is to really say who is right and who is wrong. Being that each player and character is different and has their own history, personalities, and goals who is to really say that one person is better then another or that some one role-plays better?

I think everyone should remember that we are here to have fun and to not let the little stuff like what color armor some one is wearing or what weapon they are using turn this server into and overly strict place where you have to watch everything you say or do for fear that big brother will come crashing down on you.

Thanks for reading and see you all in game.  ;)
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: Leanthar on January 13, 2005, 03:09:00 pm
Highway man, you are correct.  We are here to have fun and RP and have fun etc. etc.  And yes, everybody is unique.  We are not going to strictly enforce each and every aspect of dogmas and such.
  However, the reason I put this out there is so that people start paying attention to the deities and dogmas.  It WAS RARE that people tried to RP it or anything like the deities--at all.  Deities give powers to the classes (some of them) and in return they demand support in various flavors (that is the rule of D&D and the class system over all).  As such it needs to be RP'd.  We have players (still, though some are starting to learn) that took it all for granted, did not do the research, did not care to do the research, and never supported their deity.  Heck I asked a number of them in game questions (very simple questions) and they did not know answers.  So.... yes, we are here to have fun--no doubt about it.  But we are also here to RP, and part of that is knowing what you are RP'ing.
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: EdTheKet on January 13, 2005, 03:17:00 pm
Well, Lucinda is about magic, healing, trickery and knowledge, not about combat (as in melee combat) So if a Lucindite cleric would need to go into combat, it would be only for a very good reason, and not as frontline fighter, as that's not their goddess's thing. For frontline fighting clerics there are other gods.
  So no, what this boils down to is that they wouldn't wear full-plate and wield swords (or axes or whatever), they’d use their spells to support their companions (like summons and healing).
  I think the quarterstaves could extend to dire maces though, as that's a staff/mace combo.
 
Quote
Forcing everyone to look the same and act the same just doesn’t seem right to me. If you didn’t want clerics to use certain weapons then you should have made a rule that says clerics can only use blunt weapons and the weapon of their chosen god. [/FONT]
[/FONT]
This is not about forcing all people to act the same, this is about being able to also see in game if somebody worships let’s say Beryl or Toran.
Every deity has his/her own personality, dogma and ideals, so there should be a difference among clerics of different faiths, something which is lacking somewhat.
This is a way to make people more aware of what their character (cleric/monk/paladin/druid/champion) should actually stand for as it should be somewhat of a reflection of the deity they follow. After all, most of these classes get their abilities from their deity.
  Layonara is an RP server, and this is a way to help people play their character better to get more insight into the dogmas/rules behind everything.
 
Quote
A lot of the handbooks rules as far as these classes you are “cracking down on” seem to have been written so that players could interpret them on their own and with in reason of course of course.
[/FONT]
  It was indeed written to leave things open to interpretation, and you’ve touched upon the heart of the matter: ‘Within reason’.
As Leanthar stated in the first post of this thread, there are a lot of players not following their deities dogma/rules etc, who are not interpreting ‘within reason’, a lot don't even know about them. This is a means to point them out to them and help them out.
 
Quote
Now as far as role-playing who is to really say who is right and who is wrong. Being that each player and character is different and has their own history, personalities, and goals who is to really say that one person is better then another or that some one role-plays better? I think everyone should remember that we are here to have fun and to not let the little stuff like what color armor some one is wearing or what weapon they are using turn this server into and overly strict place where you have to watch everything you say or do for fear that big brother will come crashing down on you. Thanks for reading and see you all in game. ;)
[/FONT]
  Of course we’re here to have fun, that’s the foundation of it all and the reason for playing. But bear in mind that the basis of this server is RP, and that to enhance the RP experience we request people to RP the faiths of the gods they follow to make the world feel more ‘real’. Also consider that also in the real world organizations have uniforms or outfits they wear to set them apart from ‘normal’ people and to identify themselves to others by the way they dress.
Clerics of Az’atta going out to kill everything, or clerics of Rofirein traveling with wanted criminals (just some random examples) are not things that would fit.
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: vgn on January 13, 2005, 03:48:00 pm
Personally I think some of this is getting to finely analyzed. I think Leanthar would just like to see more attention paid to the gods since they play such an important role in this world. When the clerics/paladins/druids are not following dogma even closely then there is a problem but I think there is plenty of latitude in most of it and room for RP.
Three of my characters gain power from a devine source.

Amelia, a cleric of Aeridin, wears silver robes (I couldn't find a white I liked, though someone mentioned the lightest grey and it doesn't look too bad). She wields a heavy mace and a tower shield. She still needs to bug a dm about getting the tower shield switched to a diety shield, but I keep forgetting. She chose the mace over the quarterstaff for two reasons. It falls under a non-maiming weapon catagory and is suited for fighting the undead, to which she is dedicated. So there is deviation, but I personally think it's valid according to how I read the dogma. More than clothing or weapons though, I think Leanthar wants people to ACT more like the cleric they are. In Amelia's case, she is vegetarian, she only kills animals in self defense and only living beings when necessary (They are posing a large threat). She dedicates her time to healing and destroying the undead.

Sago is rogue/cleric of Lucinda. His adventuring garb is black leather and black cape. He has the trickiness domain and is very sneaky as a rogue, so I see no major problem there. He also has a set of blue/white robes that he doesn't wear very often, but perhaps I should start wearing them around town more. As for his weapon, he uses a magically enhanced short sword fitting the magical weapons preference. He doesn't wield a staff because he is a halfling. Sago's interest in Lucinda is primarily driven by his love of magic and magical things. He quests to find magic items loves using them.

Elu is a druid of Katia. He also has a unique background and will most of the time fight in animal form so weapon preference isn't an issue. When he does use weapons he uses either a dagger or a sling, both chosen because of his small gnome stature. As for clothing, he dresses in minimal, simple leather.

So as you can see, none of my characters really follows a strict version of the dress/weapon code, but none deviate horribly, the worst being Sago, but with his personality I think it is warranted. Also, he has requested a CDQ to bring him closer to Lucinda, so he may mix things up a bit.
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: Bralock on January 13, 2005, 03:53:00 pm
Well hasn't this thread grown rather large in less than 24 hours...

I can add a couple of thoughts here I guess.

Firstly I think there is quite a bit of a difference between clerics and paladins.  Clerics are the voices of the gods and paladins are the enforcers (whoever said that brought up a good point) and normally clerics will have a weapon but their place is not to necessarily be fighting and certainly not within melee range all the time.  Paladins are by nature warriors, holy warriors.  There is a reason that paladins can only come from four groups on Layonara - Toran, Aeridin, Vorax, and Lucinda and the point of being a paladin is an enforcing role.  I can see why a paladin would might use a quarterstaff if they follow Aeridin but they are limiting themselves in their warrior role.  It might be something they would prefer to do, but not necessarily something that could be done and allow them to fulfill their duty properly.  I know that Layonara is very heavily based on PnP and I admit I have played more 2nd Edition than 3rd, so this change with clerics using anything but blunt weapons is unusual to me as well.  I can see why some gods might rarely allow them to use a longsword or such, but most of the clerical weapons were maces and staves back then.  A paladin was always more of a warrior, and hence they wore the platemail, had the shield, and the sword at their arm.  I am not saying that a paladin should not be influenced by their deties preference of certain weapons but I do think that sometimes leniency should be given to paladins.  For an example, with Aeridin it would make sense for them to use a sword (as that is the staple of many paladin weapons) but certainly not a large sword or axe as the Church actively detests such maiming weapons.  One could argue maybe they would also use a mace because it would cause less bloodshed.  I think that if this is the case though there should be a seperate category created in the handbook for clerics and paladins.  The colours?  Certainly!  Paladins and clerics both are out there to promote their god, so that would apply to both, but I just do not see it with the weapons.

I may be wrong, I would need to look it up, but I had thought that followers of Lucinda prefered to use enchanted weapons.  I believe they favoured robes and staves, but the main point was to be heavily enchanted.  Whether it is an enchanted sword or staff (to which I think both Celgar use) I am not sure if this is wrong.  Enchanted in appearance (visual appearance) or effect (actual damage done) I am not sure which is important for the server.  Obviously at lower levels it is hard to come across enchanted items in either case.

Now, before I go off of the cleric thoughts I would like to say that you will find some characters which are more fanatic and less true to their gods.  I am not saying that these people should not have penalties, but it should be the playerbase also enforcing this.  For example, there are more than enough clerics of Lucinda running around - if someone such as Celgar was seen as not necessarily doing the right thing (and I believe with him being CN he actually shares the same alignment as his deity - which is another matter of importance, closeness of alignment to your deity) then the higher clerics of Lucinda, Serenity for example, should be actively pointing out his lapse from the dogma and perhaps offer counciling if he is so "troubled" to be wavering from faith or such.  I also will use my cleric as a follower of Aeridin who does not want to see things harmed for better or worse.  Sure, there are times when a life may be taken in self defense as there is no other choice...  However, if my cleric was go see another follower of Aeridin (cleric or paladin) going out causing wanton death and destruction for the sake of "training" then she sure is going to have something to say!  I think you will find many characters that will have different degrees of faith in their god, as it should be.  If everyone was a fanatic then it would make all clerics/paladins of the same god the same.  However, you do need to be sure that players are following the restrictions for their characters.  I think that is a very good distinction, to ensure the players are following the deity roleplay more so than the characters are.

No, you cannot buy a quarterstaff from the vendors, so I will make sure that it's reported.  When I first started I created a wizard and I wanted a staff but all I could find was a dagger.  Like Lonnarin I did learn in time you could use the fishing rod as an alternative but I really would like to see something different.  It looks the same as a staff and can even be customized to look metal and such and still work, but it's not very realistic.  I have recently been playing a new cleric of mine and I am once again using a fishing pole...  *sigh*

Ok, and last, but certainly not least...

Sorry Zhofe I really have always seen Quin as a paladin and not a cleric as well.  I can for all of the reasons listed above and I think you probably know it yourself by some of the things you have said.  This does not mean that Quin cannot change and after a CDQ become a cleric, but certainly if he was to be as he is now he would be a paladin.  By your words, "Quin is pretty much a paladin now, but without the abilities."  CDQ's are life altering changes in the character's life and certainly when religious, their faith.  You can do pretty much anything with a CDQ to make him more "holier" and maybe even take a step back from the fighting, or you can always have his faith waver with his newly found love as he is pulled towards another deity.  I really have a lot of thoughts about Quin from the very little I have actually seen of him (especially as of late) but in the end it is the direction you want to take him.  It is the role of the DMs here to see that your decison fits in with the realism of the world, but in the end you can justify any change for him - that is what good roleplay is all about.
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: ZeroVega on January 13, 2005, 03:55:00 pm
To Highwayman:
  Don't know if you're familiar with the Catholic Church or not. But a male who serves god in the Catholic Church is a priest. They have certain "rules" much like the dogma set down by Leanthar, Ed, Ozy and everyone else in the hand book. They'd probably get some stearn looks if someone found out they had neglected to wear their collars for a week or two. Or the nuns if they forgot to wear their head-dresses (or neglected to). Or if they did not abide by any of the other "rules" layed down for them. Most priests (maybe all not 100% sure) wear the same colored robes on the same day depending on what the church orders. Now I know these dogmas are not as strict, but I'd assume they should be inforced to some degree. A cleric of Aeridin wearing Black armor......Nope, not gonna happen. Cleric of Katia weilding an double bladed axe, nope, gonna get fried for that. Follow along somewhat, and keep your uniqueness, but hey these are the rules people.
  ZV-
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: Aurhinius on January 14, 2005, 12:10:00 am
A couple of things -

If you do not even know your god's dogma or anything of his teachings, why are you a cleric or other said holy class?  99% of all religions have some form of religious education including druids that would provide some amount of teachings. These teachings would be the basis of any acceptence into a holy life. More over gods do not just grant their powers over just anyone. At this time the gods are struggling. This is part of the plot and as some of you will know the gods have had trouble in the past being able to grant certain exceptional powers to their followers. If they have limited capability which it appears they do they are not going to grant that power to people who only give a meagre 30% back in return.  If you want to give just 30% or so then play a class that does not have any kind of granted divine powers. Fighters, mages, bards can all still worship a god or give some respect to one but will recieve no powers as they are not as focused upon their god as say a cleric.

I am sure everyone knows this but it is important to remember these things and it reflects upon why we are turning toward encouraging. The correct word is encouraging our holy characters to really delve into your dieties. There is a lot of depth and enjoyment there to be had. It is not however a straight jacket or mold. There are however certain dieties that are going to be stricter in certain circumstances than others. They have to maintain their images too ;-)

Remeber some gods can be fickle....
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: cappyra on January 14, 2005, 05:54:00 am
OK I know I said I was done but. . . heh

The movie "Excalibur" 1981 directed by John Boorman is a great depiction of Knighthood.  If you have seen the movie you will know what I mean.

While Lancelot was the greatest of all Knights, he still struggled against his desires as he served god and king.  

At one point in the movie, Guenevere has been accused of causing disruption in the court by having a relationship with Lancelot.   Lancelot is not there and she must have a champion to fight for her cause.  She turns to Authur and says "Will you not fight for me?"  Authur says something like "I am your King and so must be your judge in this"  also later he says something to the fact that he is king first and husband second.

The reason I mentioned this movie is that it shows the Knight struggling with his calling against the desires in his heart.   Being a Paladin is also about sacrifice.

I would also like to point out that in the old Dieties and Demigods the Authurian Knights were considered Paladins.

Now my point.  According to Quin's journal, his admitance to essentially being a Paladin without the abilities and his obvious unwavering dedication to Toran we definately see a calling.  

What I kindof see is Quin being reluctant to answer the call to Paladinhood.  Quin has been touched by Toran no doubt...  and perhaps Toran has plans for Quin.  Quin wrestles with his love for Mirren, his self doubt for not heeding the call sooner and the undeniable call of Toran.

This is good RP material here...

Not only good RP material but a huge amount of material for your CDQ.  

While your diary reflects dreams shown to you as being a healer. . .  Undeniably you Layed Hands as Cattery pointed out... and removing disease...  you can also do... as a Paladin...  and cure poison at higher levels... soooo

I am really really done now... no really  LOL riiiight
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: Zhofe on January 14, 2005, 06:37:00 am
Alright, lets break it down to levels.

As a level 12 fighter, level 1 paladin, I will be able to lay hands for 1, maybe 2 points. And this will be the standard until I am a level 12 fighter level 9 paladin (cumulative level 21) where I will finally be able to cast cure light wounds for 4 points (yay!)

As a Cleric, Quin will be able to more quickly take on the healer role I want to develope. Becoming a paladin present NO change in Quin because that is already what he IS minus the abilities.

Becoming a Cleric allows Quin to develope into something he is not yet. It allows him to expand, to broaden, and to become more of what I want.

Both in statistical leveling, and in an RP sense, Quin becoming a Paladin is about as pointless as Derrick becoming a Barbarian. Would it fit what he is, sure, but it is ALREADY what he is, just without the special title. Personally, I think it would have made more sense to dual class Derrick into a barbarian so that he could take advantage of the rage and such things. You decided to develope him into more of a master of his weapon. I don't see how anyone that crazy can master anything, but it is your character.

Sure, Quin could become a Paladin, but it isn't what I want. It isn't what Quin wants. It isn't part of the plan I have set up for him.

Now, before we continue to disrupt this post with talk of Quin, any more talk about Quin being a paladin should be sent to me in a PM. Let this post be for people who want to ask L and Ed questions about their faith. I already know what I am trying to do with Quin.
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: Leanthar on January 14, 2005, 07:02:00 am
Let us take the Quin discussion to another thread please.
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: Dorganath on January 14, 2005, 07:13:00 am
The point about Arthurian Knights being Paladins is a good one.

But you're also taking the artistic license of a Hollywood movie about the idealized Arthurian legend and applying that to D&D source material. That's kind of apples and oranges, if you ask me.

And nowhere is it addressed whether Lancelot would have become a "fallen" Paladin for going against the trust of his king and thereby his God (recall that kings and queens were supposedly granted their power by divine favor).  Lancelot was flawed and in conflict, yes.  But in the D&D realm, flawed paladins don't stay paladins for very long once they start giving into their weaknesses.
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: cappyra on January 14, 2005, 07:45:00 am
*Derrick looks over

Barbarian?  I resemble that remark...

Zhofe,
   I will respect your request about PMing you about Quin becoming a Paladin.  My posts were not an attack on Quin or you as a player.  Your RP in game is excellent.  Please don't feel like you need to get defensive.  I was merely pointing out ideas and expressing an opinion or to encourage other roleplaying ideas.  This is all about having fun.  I was just trying to help.

I chose to develop Derrick as a Weaponmaster because it fit perfectly with my background, IG character development, skill AND if you read Derrick's Character approvals there are parts of the story I wrote that actually happened IG.  Other characters asked if I was a weaponmaster or if I was going to become a weaponmaster before I even considered it.  After this I actually looked at the requirements and they had already been met.  So my progression was actually a natural occuring thing... it wasn't something I set out to do... it was something that Derrick had become.  Sort of a CD without the Q  LOL

No one ever called Derrick a barbarion LOL (barbaric maybe)...  and I would NEVER choose to dual class a character just to take advantage of a statistical advantage.  That is not Role Playing... that is Power Gaming.

As far as Derrick being Crazy... absolutely... Insane Homicidal Maniac...  that doesn't mean he is dumb by any means. (INT 13)   He actually uses cunning, strategy and intelligence to overcome his enemies.   Of course... this is sometimes... OK most times... over ridden by his insane bloodlust... (WIS 9) LOL

This is a really good thread.  As a DM in PnP I always encouraged player input even if it bent or sometimes broke the rules.  However since it was my world in which the characters were playing you had to keep things within the bounds of... as odd as this may sound... reality.  At least the reality according to the world I had created.   One of the funniest things that would happen is that the very same players who would want to bend the rules... were usually the first to complain if an NPC was able to do something outside the rules.. LOL

I guess the point I am trying to make is that in order for a fantasy realm to be... believable it has to have its own set of rules and guildlines and things considered the norm.  There is always enough room for uniqueness and that is further compounded by good RP.   So if the "norm" is for clerics of a specific diety to follow a certian set of rules governing clothing, colors, weapons, etc then those should be fairly strictly followed.

 

Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: cappyra on January 14, 2005, 08:09:00 am
The only reason I quoted or brought up that specific movie is because of the couple of situations that occured that showed the Knight's (Paladin's) inner struggle between doing what is the will of god and thier own desires.  Also that specific movie is a very good take on the Arthurian Legend.  If you haven't seen it...  see it =)

In one scene Lancelot is dreaming of fighting an armored knight.  He kills the knight an lifts the visor and sees himself.  He awakens with a start and has stabbed himself through the side with his own sword.  A great scene that depicts the knight's struggle.

Also in the movie...  Lancelot did in a sense become fallen...  and ran into the wildnerness.  At one point later during the quest for the Holy Grail (in which he was not questing for) he has become a madman with wild hair and a long beard yelling maniacally about the end of the world.  He even attacks one of the knights questing for the grail.

*Ending Spoiler LOL

At the end of the movie he returns to fight in the last battle at Authur's side finally overcoming his inner struggle and thus restoring his faith in god and king.  He dies... but not from the wounds in the last battle.. in fact he did not recieve a single wound...  it was the old wound in his side that brought about his demise.  Authur's last words are of forgivness and that Lancelot was the greatest of all knights and represents what is good in men.

WOW what a great flick!  I'm gonna watch it this weekend.

The movie is Excalibur (1981) directed by John Boorman based on Le Morte d' Arthur by Sir Thomas Malory

Except no subsitutes LOL
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: Dorganath on January 14, 2005, 08:26:00 am
Yeah, I guess I haven't seen it...or at least not in a long time.

At any rate, as you say, Lancelot falls.  So if he was a paladin before, he lost that status as he lost the inner battle and gave into his weaknesses.  When he died, though he gained some level of forgiveness and he was remorseful for his past, he did not regain his paladin status....nor should he have.

I guess what I'm saying is that this movie doesn't really support what you're saying about Qu....er...some ficticious, pious fighter who's pursuing a greater devotion to his diety. *ahem* ;)  I'd say it would make the case for a character such as that NOT pursuing the path of a paladin....but maybe it's my own skewed perspective.
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: cappyra on January 14, 2005, 08:47:00 am
Actually I did see Lancelot redeeming himself and thus regaining his status.  A fallen Paladin does not have to stay fallen forever...  I think there is redemption.  But that would have to be between the Paladin and his god.

Unfortunately Lancelot got his 10th death token at the end of the movie soooo...  LOL
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: lonnarin on January 18, 2005, 01:08:00 pm
When you die fallen but in an act of redemption you don't get your powers back.  Instead you just get to party with Ewoks and drink a specteral beer with Yoda and ObiWan
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: Diamondedge on September 01, 2005, 04:02:00 am
A few pointers from my own corner of the ocean:

Dogmas are philosophies to live by and mandates to follow. Favored weapons are what the clergy tend to use, or the tales tell the Deities use. Example from D&D: Correlon Laretien uses a longsword. His clergy TEND to use longswords. However, nowhere is it mandated that you must use the longsword. Gods aren't that fickle...

"I am a Paladin first and a Liontaur after, Brother." - Quote from Quest for Glory III...

According to the D&D 3e handbook, they aren't neccessarily holy warriors, but people who have heard a calling to do good. They are a beacon of yadda yadda yadda, blah blah blah. I have always combined the Quest for Glory ideal with this D&D ideal to say basically that Paladins are warriors of honor and virtue whom give their lives that another may live kind of heroism. Not "I'll try and swoop down to save you while I'm battling the evil pit fiend into Hell's gate again, but in the scheme of things, you're not as important as the world", it's "I will do everything in my power to save both you and the world. If I shall be destroyed in the process, so be it, it is a small price to pay."

It isn't neccessarily a matter of Divinity here; I have personally always fought that Paladins should be warriors of Good, not just a deity (But that isn't an arguement for right now). The heart and soul of the Paladin is what defines him from the common warrior. The purity, virtue and honor of the Paladin are what makes a Paladin a Paladin. To falter, and blacken your pure soul by acting against honor and virtue, you relieve yourself of your abilities fostered from Paladinhood. Of couse, on top of acting in honor, you must also act in accordance with the oath you swore to your deity when joining the church, and acting against that will sulley the paladinhood also. Hm.

Okay, well, enough of that. Let's talk Clerics and Paladins for a second. Many people, I think, have confused these two. I've heard things like "Paladins are the church, Paladins are far more devout than Clerics to the deity" and I find this a bunch of hogwash. :) It's all backwards, really. Clerics spend their lives spreading the word of the church, spreading the goodwill of their God, and helping others to learn faith in the name of their deity. Clerics are the ones you'll see wandering the streets of a town, preaching the Dogma, wearing the robes, carrying the staves. Paladins, on the other hand, are protectors. They should follow the ruling "Paladinhood first, Dogma second". The Paladin must journey all over the world and rout out evil, save others from horrible fates, give to goodwill. I don't really know where people got off calling them enforcers, but... They aren't the ones that preach the scriptures, so they aren't always the ones that will be able to pick apart the Solomon questions. That's cleric's work. Paladins combat evil in the name of their God, not preach the ways of their gods. Again, that's a priest's work.

Example:

A cleric and a paladin of, oh, I don't know, let's say Lucinda, walk down the road, spotting two ruffians beating on a poor, helpless old man. The cleric frowns and shakes his head, rushing forward to try and help the man, going so far as to chase the ruffians off with his staff. The yells at them to try and get them to follow the ways of Lucinda, love all and love magic, yadda yadda.

The Paladin doesn't stop there, however. He makes sure the old man is alright, and then chases after the ruffians, to take them to justice. Not once does he mention Lucinda, he says 'Law this, Law that, peace blah blah blah'. Cleric: Healing the old man, telling him this that and the other thing about Lucinda.

Well, I've completely missed the point and this post shall harbor much criticism. It is 5:00 am and I can't remember the first things I typed in here. I'm falling asleep, so criticise me if you must, but keep in mind I'm dead tired and therefor have little to no idea what I'm currently talking about. :)
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: Filatus on September 01, 2005, 06:36:00 am

I think you have as misconception about paladins. Not all are like the paladins of Toran (Tyr).

Paladins are trained from when they are still children, or call it brainwashed. They live to protect and serve the church, living by the standards of the faith.

3e D&D might state that they don't always have to be holy warriors, but you have to look at it from the context of Layonara. All paladins serve a church.

About people thinking paladins are closer to their god than clerics, I think you have misunderstood people's respect for paladins. Sure, everyone has seen a cleric, but to see a paladin charge into battle protected by the grace of his god is a rare site.

Paladins are special because they're rare and a bit mysterious.
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: Dorganath on September 01, 2005, 07:26:00 am
Just for fun, you should take a peek at the information on Protectors of the Weave (Lucinda's Paladins) in the new handbook. 
Title: RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
Post by: Zen on September 08, 2005, 11:42:00 am
Hey!, you all forget about the Monks? Or am I the only one that plays a Monk of a Deity?

Lets see R/P for a Dwarven Monk of Vorax: frist I think it is hard to do the dwarf talk/type thing but I'm tring; as to follower of Vorax I have talked to Leanther about the use of a helm "Helm of armor II" and he DID NOT say that I could not use it, however I choose not to. (yes monks can wear helms) I decided that because I am tring to become a "Brother of Battle in Vorax'es Monasonic Order" (ie. A Champion Monk of Vorax) that this little hardship is one I must bare.

As far as RPing this to those that have gamed with me before I removed the Helm, I have been telling them that: "Vorax came to me in a dream and told me to remove my helm, and no longer use it if I wish to be one of his favorites." Yes I have read the thing on Gods visiting PC's but, with this restriction of an allowed item I could not think of another way to say it. Kinda like in plaing a PnP D&D game (chainmail/D&D/AD&D/AD&D2ndE) me passing a note to the DM and getting it back, then adding my restriction and passing it back to the DM and the DM writing "ok" on it then passing it back.

Also "Garnet" has Never retreated from battle and more than not goes after the "Spellcasters". Yes he has died alot but, I personally see the respawning as Vorax saying "Good job lad now get back in the Battle 'n finish them off"

OK I have bared my soul, time for all of you to attack it  ;)