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Author Topic: CNR Harvesting/Camping  (Read 644 times)

Aerimor

CNR Harvesting/Camping
« on: June 11, 2010, 11:28:28 am »
I recently had questions brought to me about how many times can CNR be gathered from an area.  It seems there is a lot of confusion currently on this topic and people think there is a "Rule of Three" passes.

Here is Layonara's rules on camping and looping:
LORE: Player Rules


The rule for harvesting CNR -is- a timer limit of Thirty Minutes.  

Depending on the difficulty of defeating any guards, the time spent choping, chiseling or mining and the inclusion of any rest break, once may be in effect our limit.
 
Hopefully this helps those who asked or were mistaken about the rules.  If anyone has any questions, as always feel free to ask them.  Don't fret over anything in the past, just focus on doing things right heading forward.

Enjoy and have fun
 

Xiaobeibi

Re: CNR Harvesting/Camping
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2010, 12:40:56 pm »
I think this is the origin of the rule of "3 passes"


From LORE:

"We ask the community to limit any looping behavior through a small number of areas to sixty (60) minutes. We ask the community to limit any camping behavior in a single area to thirty (30) minutes. In the case of logging in, harvesting and logging out, we ask that you simply do not do this more than 3times in a row over a twenty-four (24) hour period.

The GM Team understands that not everyone has a lot of play time. Sometimes there is only a small amount of time to log in, take care of a few things and then log back out, and we do not wish for people with limited time to feel like criminals. However, we also believe that players should exercise some degree of self-restraint when doing such things. While we will not be actively policing for camping and looping behavior, if we observe such in excess of the stated guidelines, we reserve the right to intervene and inform the party that they have pushed the boundaries of what we would like to see."
 

Hellblazer

Re: CNR Harvesting/Camping
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2010, 11:19:27 pm »
As discussed with a few other players, I feel compelled once again to post here even if it's only to raise up a point that has been made by other people who are either too shy or just don't want to be seen as trying to bend the rules by people who would think so anyways as being part of how they think in general. So all I am writing here is toward the team, this is in no way an attempt to find ways to bend the rules, but to prevent future misconception and problems on both sides. So that being said.

What is considered a cnr zone? How many maps are included in that? How far have you to go fighting out through monsters and fighting back through monsters to reach the cnrs again, before someone decides to think that you are camping a cnr? This is mainly because it was pointed out to me that the rule was left so vague that it was unclear if the timer started the moment you entered the map of the cnr, or if it was at the moment you first started to chip at the cnr, or if it started 30 maps away even though you had to fight through all the foes to get there.

So basically, when does the timer start?

Dorganath

Re: CNR Harvesting/Camping
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2010, 12:56:53 am »
Quote from: Hellblazer
As discussed with a few other players, I feel compelled once again to post here even if it's only to raise up a point that has been made by other people who are either too shy or just don't want to be seen as trying to bend the rules by people who would think so anyways as being part of how they think in general. So all I am writing here is toward the team, this is in no way an attempt to find ways to bend the rules, but to prevent future misconception and problems on both sides. So that being said.

What is considered a cnr zone? How many maps are included in that? How far have you to go fighting out through monsters and fighting back through monsters to reach the cnrs again, before someone decides to think that you are camping a cnr? This is mainly because it was pointed out to me that the rule was left so vague that it was unclear if the timer started the moment you entered the map of the cnr, or if it was at the moment you first started to chip at the cnr, or if it started 30 maps away even though you had to fight through all the foes to get there.

So basically, when does the timer start?

My initial response to these questions is: What would common sense tell you?  What do you think the intent of the rule is? Do you really think it's 30 areas away? Does this make any sense at all? If these don't answer the question for you and others then consider the following:

Any vagueness is not a means to entrap, confuse or persecute players but simply the result of there being far too many permutations to get down to minute details in every case.  The mechanics and timing for harvesting plants is different from those of chopping trees, which is different from gem mining, which is still different from ore mining which is different from digging sand which is different from feeding chickens.  Some CNR is guarded, some is not. Trust me, were we to iterate every possibility, everyone would cry out that the rule was too complex and too hard to understand.  So we wanted to keep it simple and somewhat concise.

A CNR area is an area containing CNR. It's a pretty simple definition.

Regarding whether or not the timer starts when you enter the area or when you first start mining...it kind of works out the same, if you think about it.  If the CNR is guarded, then you have to kill your way through, and that'll probably take the same amount of time each time you try.  If it's not, you're moving around and collecting things, and again, it'll take the same amount of time, relatively speaking.

If you want my personal opinion, the timer should start when you first start harvesting, and your last harvesting attempt needs to start within 30 minutes of the first. If it does not, or it cannot because of whatever factors there may be, then don't take another pass.  So yes, this might mean that one may only be able to make one pass to harvest the CNR.  It may also mean that you can sneak in a third if you're really fast and efficient. I say "may" because this rule in no way is meant to imply there's a "rule of three" for camping CNR areas.

As a further note, I realize that some CNR areas are either impossible or unsafe for resting, and that it is common to go back an area to rest and wait for the CNR respawn in relative safety. I want to be explicit that this does not reset the timer in any way. If you were to go several areas away and return, fighting through whatever there was before, then that qualifies as a loop, and thus the looping rule would apply. However, as long as you are waiting for the CNR to respawn, whether you are doing it in the same area, the next area over, or a couple areas away, that timer is running.

To specifically address this:
Quote
As discussed with a few other players, I feel compelled once again to  post here even if it's only to raise up a point that has been made by  other people who are either too shy or just don't want to be seen as  trying to bend the rules by people who would think so anyways as being  part of how they think in general.

This seems a little accusatory to me, and I'm really not sure how to take it.  There are people here who constantly try to bend, stretch or fracture the rules to see if they can find that "sweet spot" that dances the line between what's allowed and what produces the greatest benefit.  That some on the GM team may have noticed these patterns in people and have reacted accordingly is not necessarily the fault of the GM or "how they think in general" but of the person or persons who do stretch and push the rules.

So let me say this to whomever it is who is too shy or to "afraid": It is far, far better to ask than to assume and act incorrectly.

So that said, if anything I've said above does not make sense....ASK! :)
 

Hellblazer

Re: CNR Harvesting/Camping
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2010, 01:16:23 am »
Quote from: Dorganath

This seems a little accusatory to me, and I'm really not sure how to take it.  There are people here who constantly try to bend, stretch or fracture the rules to see if they can find that "sweet spot" that dances the line between what's allowed and what produces the greatest benefit.  That some on the GM team may have noticed these patterns in people and have reacted accordingly is not necessarily the fault of the GM or "how they think in general" but of the person or persons who do stretch and push the rules.

So let me say this to whomever it is who is too shy or to "afraid": It is far, far better to ask than to assume and act incorrectly.

So that said, if anything I've said above does not make sense....ASK! :)


Thanks for taking the time to answer dorg.

Yes it was straight to the point and relaying my thoughts. And no it wasn't aimed at the gms. It was a rather shortened and tame version of what I had originally written up before posting here. But I deemed it was too rough so I tamed it down. But yes, it's a fact, that some people that raised the question, thought it better not to ask on the forum, because they were afraid to be perceived as trying to find ways to bend the rules, and that their general view in front of other players would be affected. Which is why it's worded this way.

jrizz

Re: CNR Harvesting/Camping
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2010, 01:48:06 am »
It seems very clear to me (as long as you are not searching for loopholes). It is asked that within any given small number of areas you limit your time there to 60 mins. This is the looping guide. So take any small number of areas that are around a CNR area.

What is a small number of areas? well it differs quite a lot. But you can use some land marks. With the exception of the deep a small number of areas could be the whole mine from the time you go under ground, or all the areas between the last city and the trees/plants/skins you are after. In the deep it is easy to figure it out.

So getting back to it, you enter those areas and the looping timer starts, you have 60 mins to do your thing. Once you get to the area with the CNR, that is within that small number of areas, and you start to harvest the CNR timer starts, you have 30 mins. You finish mining and you now have 30 mins minus however much time it took you to mine. You can wait for the CNR to respawn and mine it again if it falls within that time, for most CNR it wont. So you have to leave. Now for most small number of areas you would have already burned 20 mins or so just to get to the CNR and if it took 10 mins to mine the CNR you still have 30 mins. So you head to a "safe place", rest (if you made sure your rest timer was set right), and head back in. You fight to the CNR mine it again and have to high tail it out to stay within the 60 mins.

Simple
 

Hellblazer

Re: CNR Harvesting/Camping
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2010, 01:55:33 am »
Aye  I agree with you is simple. It's when it comes to the gathering cnr timer that there was confusion of when it started and what was considering the zone of cnrs.

davidhoff

Re: CNR Harvesting/Camping
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2010, 01:56:09 am »
 

lonnarin

Re: CNR Harvesting/Camping
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2010, 06:56:12 pm »
If it takes 5 hours minimum to get there and you leave after 5 minutes, isn't it kind of like driving all the way to Disney World with the family and turning back after just riding the teacups ride?
 

Rowana

Re: CNR Harvesting/Camping
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2011, 06:53:12 pm »
Giving this post a bump because there again seems to be a sentiment that people do not understand the rule on the timer verses number of passes versus how many times people can log in and log out in an area to camp the CNR, etc. Please folks read it. If you don't understand the rule (or any other), ask for clarification.

Additionally, when each player submits a character they are agreeing to those rules whether they were read or not and claiming ignorance or claiming that someone else told them a different version of the rules does not absolve anyone of being in error, not even a GM. Many people have claimed these things in the past and it -really- doesn't matter. We have to be equally fair and we have to enforce the rules, otherwise there is no point to having them. It is fair to say the rules should be read once in a while (every 6 months or when they are noted to have changed as a suggestion) just to keep fresh in your mind how to best help your fellows (but not by telling them what the rules are so they don't have to read them for themselves. *winks* ).

~row
 

wild_down_under

Re: CNR Harvesting/Camping
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2011, 08:16:08 pm »
First of all, I am not trying to knit pick the rules. I have a few questions and hopefully I can get a better understanding of the rules. Maybe others will get a better understanding as well.

I was reading the "looping" rule. As stated, Looping is defined as:

"Looping is defined as going through the same few areas in a short period of time in order to keep continually harvesting CNR, reaping XP and loot from killing the creatures there, etc., and then repeating this sort of thing over and over in a given span of time.

We ask the community to limit any looping behavior through a small number of areas to sixty (60) minutes. We ask the community to limit any camping behavior in a single area to thirty (30) minutes. In the case of logging in, harvesting and logging out, we ask that you simply do not do this more than three (3) times in a row over a twenty-four (24) hour period."

What is considered "small few areas?" Here is an example (sorry but I do not know all the names of the area so please bare with me).

A party, with a lot of time, starts out in Miritrix, kills the Sharon's woods area, go down to the cave and up, go to the next transition with giants and primal genasi cave, go back to Miritrix, travel to Fort of Last Hope, kill the Fire giants and few areas there, go to Hilm, kill the Hilm Castle giants right outside, kill the stalkers at the next transition area, travel to Tuo River and kill those giants, then kill the giants near the Yew tree area, and make their way back and 'revisiting' every spots that they have visited.

Yes, this is a very long long long travel with many rests. This will take more than 60 minutes. Technically, this is a "loop" and will be more than 60 minutes. According to the rule, this is not allowed.

And if some players log off and some remains with others adding to the party to continue the trip, or "repeat" that long travel by themselves, is that ok? (who knows, someone might be on vacation and has a lot of energy to play so what are they to do?)

As for the CNR, suppose a group travels to emerald area, kill and harvest, leave and head to mithril area, kill and harvest, return back to emerald, and then back to mithril, and then leave to the surface, is that ok? (so basically emerald, mithril, emerald, mithril) Obviously, the time spent at each place varies.

Or can the group only go to emerald (one time), head to mithril (one time), and have to completely leave the Deep and get to the surface before the group can repeat the process? If the process can be repeated, what is the limit of times per RL day?

Again, I would like to get some clarification and I am not trying to weave/break/bend rules. I am sure others would appreciate the knowledge too.

Thank you GM Team for your answers.

Of course, while the group is traveling together, they are RP'ing whatever comes to play. They are not just on a killing spree. Although because of the nature of the long travel, they may be RP'ing about killing and healing and disgusts for whatever trying to kill them.
 

Dorganath

Re: CNR Harvesting/Camping
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2011, 08:32:37 pm »
I think these questions were answered, more or less, in your other thread, but clearly, if our limit on looping is 60 minutes, then something that takes an hour or more to complete once isn't really looping. That said, if one is spending 3-4 hours and running that same loop 3-4 times...well, it's kind of a grey area, and I would hope there was some decent RP going on.  It's not technically against any rules, but neither should it be a habit, especially if a character or group does this repeatedly over several days.  That's mostly opinion, and honestly, I don't think I would personally punish anyone for it, but I would suggest broadening their horizons somewhat.

I am not, however, going to give a specific example, or respond to a specific example, and say whether or not it is OK or not OK.  Examples are often specifically given and generally interpreted, which can lead and has led to the team's words being used against us.  I'm just not going to open up to that possibility.

The rules on LORE are written as clearly as they need to be. Yes, they rely somewhat on good judgement and responsible behavior as a player, but that's what we want.   Err on the side of caution.  Maybe it means less CNR than is desired...or less loot...or someone remains just shy of that next level for a few more days, but really, that's OK isn't it?

I know some CNR is a true burden to obtain. It's meant to be that way, for reasons I mentioned in the other thread.  It's a good idea to keep these things in mind rather than trying to rationalize the specifics of what is and isn't camping.  I say that as a general thing, and it isn't directed at anyone in particular....as it comes up periodically and is specific to no one person or group.

Also be assured, if we had a different system for gathering CNR, we'd have different sorts of limits in place so that the flow of high-end resources was kept to some degree of control.  As much as people think these things are burdensome or fun-killers, they're necessary.