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Author Topic: For those fast leveling characters out there  (Read 6366 times)

Harlas Ravelkione

Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
« Reply #40 on: April 17, 2007, 06:48:18 am »
@Timmy: Have you not participated in my quests lately? They are plot related.

You assume much, while you know little about the mechanics involved in running a quest. Spawns can be modified, but only so much. If anyone is allowed on a high combat quest MANY low levels will be killed by a spawn that is meant to challenge the epic characters in the group. It's a fact. One meteor swarm and most lvl 10 people are dead and throw a dice against the soul mother. Do you prefer that?
It is a balance issue. It is much easier to design good fights for a group that is evened out level-wise.

Harlas
 

Nibor21

Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
« Reply #41 on: April 17, 2007, 06:50:41 am »
Quest limits are in place to ensure the fun is in for everyone in the quest

If a quest is combat based then either the lvl 3 fighter gets creamed by the spawns or the level 15 mage is bored witless. The range levels for quests ensure that everyone on the quest has a reasonably balanced combat experience.

We are however in the process of adding more hard coded scripts for lower levels.

Another thing worth considering that quests are as much about character actions as they are about combat prowess. And it often takes time for a new character to properly develop his or her personality.

Oh and there are often quests for lower levelled players. But we only have so many GMs and their time is limited.

Nibor
 

DMOE

Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
« Reply #42 on: April 17, 2007, 07:08:10 am »
I have counted four quest on the calender open to new players and either with no level limit or a request to PM the DM if you are outside the level limit so encounters can be tweaked.....

Yes....Returning players are given priority on some but as quests that are not stand alone involving solving things with information gained each week then to not do that would quite frankly be dumb.

That having be said....Not all players do return, for various reasons so it is always worth going and seeing if there is a space.

Remember...DM Quest are not simply about gaining XP....You should be thinking if the quest is appropriate for your character, not just going for the XP hand out at the end.  I have not returned and even walked off quests as it was not appropriate to my character to be involved and would like to thing others do to.  That of course then leaves a slot free for another character to fill.
 

jrizz

Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
« Reply #43 on: April 17, 2007, 07:11:14 am »
hey guys give the team a chance here. They just put out V3 and now are working on the balance issues. Sit tight and stay tuned I am sure there are cool things coming up soon.
 

Drizzlin

Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
« Reply #44 on: April 17, 2007, 07:36:20 am »
Quote from: Odranoela
I just don't get it why would there even be level requirements for quests..
It makes absolutely no sense that all quests are level restriced and we're asked not to gain levels too fast..
Should a lvl 3 character just rot and wait until he's lvl 10 to able to participate?
Would it really be powergaming if this player tried to rush as fast as he can the levels to be able to play quests with others?
This brings me to the Oh Well post...
I can relate to what that player has been through, would you still have him experience all this difficulty to participate in a quest after that disastrous episode?
It would be greatly appreciated, and not only by me, if there were quests specific for low level characters, new players or not, unless they're not worth the effort and time.
I'm sorry for insisting on the subject, but couldn't we find some balance for this situation?

Sincerely,

ODR.



If I am a DM, trying to build a quest, I need to have an idea of the levels I am building it for. I wouldn't want level 5 creatures when I have a group of level 20s, nor would I want to have level 20 npcs spawn on level 5 creatures.

By setting a level limit of say 10 - 15, I can then make sure the possible creatures that they run into fit within their challenge rating. There are other reasons like rewards, rp, and everyone in the group being able to contribute to consider as well.
 

egoober

Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
« Reply #45 on: April 17, 2007, 08:17:42 am »
I can only answer for myself, but I only have one reason for putting a lower level limit on a quest I run.

Simply, if it's there, it's probably because the combats I am anticipating are of a certain power level, and I'd rather not kill huge numbers of PCs off (well, not too quickly anyway ;) )
With a fixed party size too many characters of to low a level will spell disaster, or a re-write of the quest. Given that I prefer to run reasonably small parties, I can choose to post a lower level limit.
In a similar vein, characters of too high a level may well find everything too easy!

"Tweaking the spawns" is sometimes easier said than done, especially if said spawns include custom built creature or NPC's.

That said, if I'm running a quest and people outside of the posted limits PM me in advance and ask to come along, I will usually try to be flexible. A polite "No, not this time, sorry" is the worse that they will get!
 

Kindo

Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
« Reply #46 on: April 17, 2007, 08:53:46 am »
I do want level requirements on GM quests. It's especially annoying when it's levels 1-40, because then you know the entire thing will be overrun and taken over by epics. No quest is fun when there's a bunch of epic-level characters making all the calls. Limiting the level range is a good thing, that will make the participating players feel more involved and more in their right place. 5-15 is good, 5-10 is even better. Or 10-15. If the range is much greater than that, the "lower levels" will just feel pushed aside, as if they're just riding along as someone else is driving. Sure, there's still the role-play factor, and the lower levels can still participate socially in speech and what not, but as soon as any combat breaks out or rolls are made for role-play/adventuring purposes, they are immediately more or less useless. I can tell you it's not a good feeling when you're in that situation, and eventually you just realize this quest isn't for you any more. It's for the high-levels - the epics, which is why I hope more Game Masters will put stricter level requirements on their quests, and not to allow "any level" to join when you know there will be combat or other adventuring factors involving the mechanics of one's player character. Because that is actually inadvertently excluding the low levels.
 

Blackguy

Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
« Reply #47 on: April 17, 2007, 09:12:11 am »
I'd like to state that us "epics" have the same problems as many low levels have. Its getting better now. But there was a time from around december and until march where the only quests a Epic could join were those 1-40 that you mention is "overrun" by Epics. Luckily this have started to change abit, and every level range is represented on the calender.
 
 But I agree that quests open to all on GMT timeslots primetime draws alot of people. Even if its only a RP quest, it would be nice to not have quests that said open to all. But this have been discussed to death by people again and again, and there will always be lows and highs for quests.
 

IceDragonDuvessa

Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
« Reply #48 on: April 17, 2007, 09:12:30 am »
I never put level requirements on my quests and I never will. Many of them wound up being led by the less than epic characters as well. The trick to running open level quests is look for the players RPing their butt off... those are the ones that are going to be prominent in the series.

The problem is more often low levels see the higher levels and say meh Ill just be along for the ride and don't even bother to try.

For example on one plot series that I ran... a level 9 character became instrumental in the success of the quest for her cleverness and roleplaying ability. 5 epic characters on the series as well they did better on the roles so they often got more information up front... but the lower levels worked a bit harder at figuring things out and often worked out the answers a bit quicker by putting in the extra effort beyond throwing dice. Then there were the low levels that never said a word and just followed along... they often found themselves dead and removed from the series for not putting in any effort.

Quests are what the player makes of them. Lower levels will have to put in more effort since they don't have the established credibility, allies and mechanically higher skills but... how the heck do you think epics got to where they are? By putting in that same effort and rping thier rears off.
 

Dorganath

Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
« Reply #49 on: April 17, 2007, 09:46:27 am »
Quote from: Kindo
I do want level requirements on GM quests. It's especially annoying when it's levels 1-40, because then you know the entire thing will be overrun and taken over by epics. No quest is fun when there's a bunch of epic-level characters making all the calls. Limiting the level range is a good thing, that will make the participating players feel more involved and more in their right place. 5-15 is good, 5-10 is even better. Or 10-15. If the range is much greater than that, the "lower levels" will just feel pushed aside, as if they're just riding along as someone else is driving. Sure, there's still the role-play factor, and the lower levels can still participate socially in speech and what not, but as soon as any combat breaks out or rolls are made for role-play/adventuring purposes, they are immediately more or less useless. I can tell you it's not a good feeling when you're in that situation, and eventually you just realize this quest isn't for you any more. It's for the high-levels - the epics, which is why I hope more Game Masters will put stricter level requirements on their quests, and not to allow "any level" to join when you know there will be combat or other adventuring factors involving the mechanics of one's player character. Because that is actually inadvertently excluding the low levels.

With respect, I think this is a very unfair and sweeping generalization about epic and high-level characters.

In most cases, if there are no level caps or there is a very long range of levels allowed, that typically means that combat will be de-emphasized or non-existent.  But if combat does happen to break out, then yeah, of course, higher level characters are going to dominate.  It's just simple mechanics.

Moving on...as a player and a GM I have seen myself where 90% of a quest's participants are wallflowers and only when one or more "epics" or higher-level characters that you seem to disdain to a degree actually takes some kind of action do things move along.  The very simple fact about quest participation is one gets out of it what one puts into it.  Epic and high level characters have, for the most part, been here a long time and are experienced with GM-led quests and RP in general.  There's so much that one can learn by watching and working with these characters rather than fostering feelings of exclusion and hostility when one of them actually does something.  In addition, they tend to know more about the world and game mechanics and sometimes actually possess the skill and knowledge level required to complete things...or at least help things along.  There is almost always something for everyone to contribute on a quest, regardless of level. But a means of contributing is not just going to be handed to someone by the GM...a player and his/her character have to take initiative.

I don't intend this to be an attack or criticism against you in the least, but I do take some exception to the way you have worded your comment.

Sadly, it just goes to show how the GM Team can never make everyone happy.  This issue is cyclical, and here's how that cycle goes.

Players complain that there are too many restrictions on levels...not enough for low-level characters or perhaps not enough, if any, for higher-level or epic-level characters.  GMs respond and open up the limits and requirements to be less exclusive.  Then people complain there aren't enough spots on quests for everyone who wants to go on it, or that the "epics" take over or whatever.  So then more focused quests are put on the calendar with smaller level ranges.  Almost invariably, epic characters are left out of that loop, and there's nothing available for them except maybe a plot quest or two. So then GM's try to accommodate more people by opening up the level requirements, and it all starts all over again.

If we had 50 GMs, we could have plenty of quests with narrow and broad requirements, lots of time overlaps and something to please everyone, but we don't, so we do the best we can and we try to be responsive, but as I described, someone is always unhappy.

And for what it's worth, my "epic" character is perfectly happy to let someone else walk in front and lead a quest, though he will still do what he thinks is appropriate, and if that means using the skills he's worked hard to develop, then so be it.  And if that means taking some sort of charge if he thinks that things aren't going right, then so be it.

If I can offer one other piece of experienced advice...

I've seen far too much bickering (IC and OOC) about who should be leading a quest.  There's almost always a division down the lower/higher level lines, with the former wanting someone to give them a chance and the latter just wanting things to move along.  The fact of the matter is that there is rarely a "best" leader for a quest, nor should that be the focus.  What should be the focus is getting things accomplished...for either assembling the best team for the task or making the best use of the people assembled to ensure a positive outcome.

It was requested before the last plot quest that new people be given a chance to contribute and even lead, with a suggestion that plot quest participation be a rotating thing to give everyone a shot.  The quest had a very permissive level limit and a party cap at 16.  About 24 people showed up for the quest, some bowed out gracefully after the first hour once the scenario was set up and what occurred is that the party sort of self-organized based on what had occurred in the first hour.  After the quest, it was remarked that the party ended up being exactly as it needed to be, and I personally saw participation, input and RP from just about everyone there to the limits of their character's abilities.

Anyway, I didn't mean for this to be so long, but it's very hard sometimes to see sweeping generalities about a particular group of characters.
 

Harlas Ravelkione

Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
« Reply #50 on: April 17, 2007, 11:40:05 am »
Amen Dorganath. You said just about everything that I meant to say.

This cycle is indeed repeting itself over and over and over again. If you have been here for a few years you notice the pattern and whatever we do it will continue to be that way.

Consider this for a moment ---> The entire GM Team works very hard to create realism, stories and epic battles for you! All of you - the whole community of Layonara. That means new players, old players, characters played by GMs, returning players, etc. This has been said many many times, but some people seem to need this piece of information every once in a while.  Are there other servers that offer you this service? Servers that offer you the opportunity to influence the happenings in the world if you show initiative? That let you evolve via roleplay into prestige classes - not simply via levelling and choosing, but by creating your own history and background? Servers where you can pick a GM who then spends hours to plan a personal character development quest for you?

Perhaps there is/are other places that offer the same. I don't know. All I can tell you that there are very talented people in the Team. People that spend time to plan entertainment for the community instead of solving equations or building cars that run on air. I am proud of being a part of it and I am looking forward to every quest I run because I like to see other players have fun and enjoy what I create around and for them.

Harlas
 

Interia_Discordius

Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
« Reply #51 on: April 17, 2007, 12:45:24 pm »
I just wanted to state...
Despite "epics" being on a quest, a GM isn't going to exclude you just because you're low level and your roll happens to be, well, just that. Low.

I've only played here for about three to four months now, roughly, and I've been using my main character Kinai often in quests. I've realized that yes, "epics" can "dominate"...But that's because most people -let- them. Heck, whenever I took Kinai and started playing chatterbox as her or throwing in my two cents or did whatever else that involved contributing, I was involved. I'm still low level, not as much as before, but when I was low...I still got to play. It didn't happen in every quest, and I wasn't about to take any sort of lead in every one of them, but moreso...

Just being actively engaged can give the GM a better chance to add you along. At least that's how I see it.

Seriously though, I just had to state...Low levels aren't being actively unincluded, I don't think. You might have to work harder because you can't depend on rolls or some such, but it's quite possible to be a prominant part of the quest despite being low level.
 

Kindo

Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
« Reply #52 on: April 17, 2007, 12:46:22 pm »
I should have stated more clearly that I did not mean my post as any kind of an attack against any of the Game Masters. I also apologize for making it sound so generalizing. Obviously, not everyone can be happy all the time about what's going on. Unfortunately. I mainly just wanted to point out that some level restrictions might be good in certain events where game mechanics will be present (such as combat), just in order to prevent the lower levels from feeling completely weak and useless. Believe me, when you're in a group as a level 8, and giant spells like Weird start flying around the screen, you are suddenly violently reminded of your mouse-like state of being. You cannot contribute, nor are you needed to contribute. All you can do is tag along, trying to dodge those massive area of effect spells being cast. Surely, you can see how this is not entirely fun, and it cased me at least to give up after a bit and ask to leave the event. Naturally, I have not been on every quest ever planned. In fact, I have not been on many, so I do not want this to be a sweeping generalization. I'm sure there are plenty of quests that turn out good and fun for everyone, but the fact still remains that these things do happen. This is not a big strife or complaint, I am just voicing my opinion of how I would prefer it if the levels allowed were a bit more condensed. Sure, if you are running a long series of quests in which you want everyone to be able to participate, I understand if you want as many people as possible to feel welcome, but you still run the risk of certain low-levels ending up feeling a bit out of place.


Edit: Yes, Christine. I am not speaking of general adventuring of solving puzzles, and the more social bit. It's when the mechanics get involved, of which the higher levels clearly benefit from (Low-level rolls a lucky 20 on whatever skill check  while the higher level rolls a so-so 50), that some people might experience some sense of "out of place." Also, keep in mind, if there are 15-20 players in the group at the same time, it is really hard to role-play properly and react to everything everyone is saying and doing.
 

gilshem ironstone

Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
« Reply #53 on: April 17, 2007, 12:54:23 pm »
I am goin to add my two cents about the lower-level versus epic level debate.  For what it is worth at least and that I do not know.

I think that if one takes a chance to not let themselves be intimidated by the power, and more importantly the real-life experience that various PC's have on this server then what Dorganath and Harlas said are completely true.

I have been on a quest with my lvl 9 PC, another of the same level, a lvl 13 PC, a lvl 17 PC and a lvl 26 PC as a party and from the RP and play between us I do not think you could defintively say who was what level.  When out of combat it always comes down to the input given by each player and how the others in the party respond.

I find it gets trickier in large groups where every player wants to input and the party runs the risk of having an unfollowable conversation.  Currently, at this time I feel I am not very good in those situations and so I often sit back and learn from those players that have more experience/talent at dealing with large groups.  I input what I can, where I feel it is valuable and try and walk away a better player than I was before.

I know I have felt like I cannot get a word in edgewise sometimes, but that comes and goes, and I think with patience every player will find that there is a place for their PC's views in the party.  But overall I have found the high-level characters are very receptive to all players inputs.

Combat is a different beast.  Game-mechanics are undeniable and of course a high-level PC will have an edge.  But I like to think that GM's notice, when they have time, how lower-level PC's respond in those situations as well.  How they plug-themselves in to a party where they might not make ALL the difference, but try to make a difference none the less.  I don't know, maybe one of the GM's can speak further to that.

But over all I believe that people should play their PC to the best of their ability, and not worry about being the key player in a quest all the time. Rather, we should all contribute in the best fashion we can and tell a great, immersive story.  That is the real reward of RP, and Layonara's greatest asset.

Sorry, if this post seems messy, but I hope something of value can be taken from it.
 

Interia_Discordius

Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
« Reply #54 on: April 17, 2007, 12:56:49 pm »
Quote from: Kindo

Edit: Yes, Christine. I am not speaking of general adventuring of solving puzzles, and the more social bit. It's when the mechanics get involved, of which the higher levels clearly benefit from (Low-level rolls a lucky 20 on whatever skill check  while the higher level rolls a so-so 50), that some people might experience some sense of "out of place." Also, keep in mind, if there are 15-20 players in the group at the same time, it is really hard to role-play properly and react to everything everyone is saying and doing.


Very true, heh, and that's when I personally just take to the back and start screaming whatever to totally annoy the team.
**huggles her Kinai**

Really though, I can understand that part. Most battles in the quests I'm in are totally over my head, but that's fine. Your chance of death is high, but it's not like the GM is throwing battle after countless battle (although it did seem a bit like that on the quest I think you're talking about, Kindo...it stopped soon after though).

To be honest, I -like- having the chance to die a lot on the quests. It keeps me from getting some god-like complex, and also gives the feeing of realism that you can't go and bash every enemy you face into the ground. The epics are decades older than most of the lower levels, so I don't see it as much as levels as plain age.

For the long-timers who aren't high level? Pyyran made a darn good example by telling Kinai he's been scouting longer than she's been alive. That made me giggle...

I think I'm rambling. Maybe if things get too hectic in a quest though, you can send a Tell to a GM or to a friend in the party to help include you. I dunno, just an idea.
 

MJZ

Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
« Reply #55 on: April 17, 2007, 01:31:59 pm »
Well, I think this is what level restrictions on quests are for. They help ensure the playing field is even for all participants. I think there's an obvious limit as to how much a couple of characters under level ten can be incorporated if all other party members are twice their level. Battles aside and adventuring rolls aside, the low level characters simply do not have the experience of their higher level counterparts, both in character and (often) out of character as members of Layonara. Which usually leaves them to busily asking annoying question *points to Ariel* ;)

I don't have a problem with high level characters "taking over" quests - it's bound to happen to an extent and I don't see why they shouldn't take charge, with their years of experience and knowledge and killing-expertise and lore and whatnot. And that is why I'm all for level-restricted quests. Of course, we also have some non-restricted quests. So everyone's happy.


(Excuse my mellowness. I am in Sweden, after all.)
 

Nehetsrev

Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
« Reply #56 on: April 17, 2007, 01:35:30 pm »
Personally, while on occasion I allow the mistaken mindset to kick in and begin to think my character is 'useless' when the 'big-dogs' are unleashed, the fact of the matter is that feeling that way is a choice of it's own right.

I remember the first quest any of my characters was involved in had Treana tagging along to the plane of Chaos to help her friends free themselves of a sort of curse.  Was Treana (then at level 6 or 7 if I recall) out of her league?  Definitely.  Did I allow that to ruin my fun?  Heck no.  I pressed on and still did my best in each fight, fights where literally one or two blows would kill her, and I was rewarded with a total of four deaths which sent me back to Hlint to wait out the end in wonder, not knowing if my friends were successful in their attempts, or suffered a fate worse than mine.

The point is, I chose to have fun RPing my character as the loyal friend she was trying very hard to be, and I had a blast.  I knew Treana was likely going to be toast from the moment I went in.  I knew there wasn't much she could contribute from a game-mechanics perspective.  But, I also knew as a player, I could contribute atmosphere in some fractional way to the story, and help give my fellows a more enjoyable experience as a result.

Don't get bogged down in the 'hey they're way more powerful than I' concepts, just play as though they're average joe's too, until you see their awesome power unleashed, and then play the wonderment your character should be feeling after witnessing such glorious spectacle.  Choose to have fun playing, no matter what happens or who else is involved, and you will have fun.
 

Skywatcher

Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
« Reply #57 on: April 17, 2007, 06:24:36 pm »
I find that for me the best thing to do is to not pay any attention to what level other players are.  I try to just respond to people as if I was just meeting them and interacting with them.  In combat I am glad to have higher level characters around since it usually means more survival.  Even though the higher levels may benefit from higher rolls I think anyone who is paying attention and thinking about what is going on can make very valuable contributions to any quest.  Sometimes its a matter of being forceful and that's not in everyone's personality but for me I have always found a way to be active in any quest I have played in whether I was the lowest level or highest level.  Remember the higher level players also have the challenge of holding back sometimes to let others contribute.  Some of the very experienced players here could probably plow through some quests on their own but they don't because they recognize the value and fun of RP and allowing everyone to get involved.  The GMs also do a good job of including lower level characters when they are active and doing their best to contribute.
 

MJZ

Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
« Reply #58 on: April 17, 2007, 06:42:10 pm »
But you can't "not pay attention to what level other players are" when they're more than twice your level. You'd have to close your eyes to accomplish that, haha. Sure, you can be as forceful and vocal as you like - but there's a limit how much useful input your level 6 or 7 or 8 character have next to blokes who helped destroy Bloodstone, for example. Don't try to tell me you can always be just as helpful as the decorated war heroes of the world. ;)

While I agree that if you set yourself out to have a good time, it certainly helps, still not everyone has such a light-hearted view on death. I for one become very aggravated when my characters die, even with successful saves against the Soul Mother. Four deaths on one quest would be unimaginable for someone like myself! And imagine the punishment poor Treana felt being torn to shreds again and again and again!

The way I see it, struggling to make yourself appear useful and included isn't as much fun as being useful and included. It was mentioned somewhere that epics have put tons of hours, sweat, blood, frustration, and luck(!) into becoming epics - why shouldn't they be allowed to revel in the fruits of their labour? They should. That's why I'd rather the playing field was level more often than not on those big bad quests. So there's no need to try and fight that man or mouse complex.


Besides - it's much more fun the other way around - one or two higher ups with a bunch of low-lifes, oohing and aahing at their shiny threads and critter-killing prowess. ;)
 

Dorganath

Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
« Reply #59 on: April 17, 2007, 08:04:24 pm »
Ha!  Well, Clarissa/Skywatcher sure can seem to not pay attention to levels. :)

A couple of months ago, I remember her being very eager and vocal on a quest about getting information out of an epic character who's very well known to me.  Thumbs up on that; you really made me take notice!

So I'd say you can.  That's not to say you won't notice the difference, but the key is that you need to make that fundamental decision as to whether or not you are going to let that affect your RP.
 

 

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