The World of Layonara

The NWN Persistent World => Server Rules => Topic started by: Leanthar on December 07, 2004, 08:48:00 pm

Title: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Leanthar on December 07, 2004, 08:48:00 pm
I will remind you once again, and a final time--don't say you have not been warned. 
  We want RP here, we want your characters involved in quests and the plot.  If you are not interested in this then it is time to leave, find another world that is more fitting to your style of game play.  While it is not a bad play style it is not what I want on this world/server, that is not what we are about.
  On top of that... You will never be approved to go Epic (ie. more than 20th level) with such shallow characters.  When you are all about powergaming and leveling you have little to no time to RP and define your character and I simply will not approve your character going epic. And yes, I have to approve all characters before they can go to Epic Levels.
  I am not speaking to those that level fairly quickly but still also put in a good strong effort to RP and join quests and/or the plot quests here on the server.  As well as continue to respect the community of players. 
  I am speaking to those who are leveling so fast it is just plain silly, getting so rich (by exploits and/or pushing the boundries of reasonable harvesting) it is just disgusting and to those who rarely (if ever) join in a GM quest or plot.  All you want to do is level and power game, that style of game play is not encouraged here.  We have a great group of players and RP'ers, lets allow that to remain so and give them the respect they deserve.
  Please don't send me a PM asking if I am speaking about you because I will not answer them.  Sit back and think it over and decide for yourself.  90%+ of the people in the community are just find and/or great... but it is the 5%-10% that is starting to harm the community and I am not going to allow it to happen.  It is time for this group of people to sit back and think about things and make a tough decision. 
Title: RE: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Leanthar on April 12, 2005, 12:48:00 pm
Bumping so it is not deleted.
Title: RE: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: jan on September 18, 2006, 10:46:40 am
As i had nothing better to do then browse the forums ,i found this thread again .

I cant help but notice that the rulechange from epic to world leader has been responcible for the levellers under the players to get a free hand in powerlevelling.
With the change from epic to worldleader the rules on levelling further have been thrown out , resulting in characters beeing able to keep gaining exp and grow bigger then they ever could become( lvll wise) with the epic rules .
there is a post somewere out on the forum that states that "getting to lvll 12 in 5 weeks is clearly not rp but powerlevelling"..or something close to that .
It saddens me that getting high in lvlls fast is now sooner seen as normal then anything else .
Characters going from lvll 20 to lvll 21 in about a week or two (over 3 million exp)others going from zero to 18 in about 8 weeks,to me it seems silly and bad roleplaying to get that high so fast .

When on an adventure in the underdark the group i was with was talked to in a friendly manner by a dm telling us that the character range we were travelling with was to wide spread ( ranging from 13 to 21 on east)for the place we were.
And after thinking about it the dm was right (server recomendation for chars going to east is lvll 18+ i think and for central its 14 or 15+)

Lot of text for a simple question realy .Is it possible to get back some rules on levelling so that the powergamers
 ( read levellers) can be stopped ?

I personaly find it a slap in the face for those that do roleplay and work on their character that others that are only concerned with levells and how high they are get free play.

( This is not aimed at any one in particular and if one of the examples might be recognisable for any one then i appoligice for that , but i hope you will ask yourself in that case if it is according to the serverrules that you are at the lvll you are now)

Jan

Title: RE: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: d20mushroom on September 18, 2006, 10:53:17 am
Quote
Leanthar - 12/7/2004  4:48 PM    I will remind you once again, and a final time--don't say you have not been warned.
  We want RP here, we want your characters involved in quests and the plot. If you are not interested in this then it is time to leave, find another world that is more fitting to your style of game play. While it is not a bad play style it is not what I want on this world/server, that is not what we are about.
  On top of that... You will never be approved to go Epic (ie. more than 20th level) with such shallow characters. When you are all about powergaming and leveling you have little to no time to RP and define your character and I simply will not approve your character going epic. And yes, I have to approve all characters before they can go to Epic Levels.
  I am not speaking to those that level fairly quickly but still also put in a good strong effort to RP and join quests and/or the plot quests here on the server.As well as continue to respect the community of players.
  I am speaking to those who are leveling so fast it is just plain silly, getting so rich (by exploits and/or pushing the boundries of reasonable harvesting) it is just disgusting and to those who rarely (if ever) join in a GM quest or plot. All you want to do is level and power game, that style of game play is not encouraged here. We have a great group of players and RP'ers, lets allow that to remain so and give them the respect they deserve.
  Please don't send me a PM asking if I am speaking about you because I will not answer them. Sit back and think it over and decide for yourself. 90%+ of the people in the community are just find and/or great... but it is the 5%-10% that is starting to harm the community and I am not going to allow it to happen. It is time for this group of people to sit back and think about things and make a tough decision.
 Well said L, well said.
Title: RE: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: crazedgoblin on September 18, 2006, 10:54:02 am
Quote
Leanthar - 12/8/2004 4:48 AM   I will remind you once again, and a final time--don't say you have not been warned.
  We want RP here, we want your characters involved in quests and the plot. If you are not interested in this then it is time to leave, find another world that is more fitting to your style of game play. While it is not a bad play style it is not what I want on this world/server, that is not what we are about.
  On top of that... You will never be approved to go Epic (ie. more than 20th level) with such shallow characters. When you are all about powergaming and leveling you have little to no time to RP and define your character and I simply will not approve your character going epic. And yes, I have to approve all characters before they can go to Epic Levels.
  I am not speaking to thosethat level fairly quickly but still also put in a good strong effort to RP and join quests and/or the plot quests here on the server. As well as continue to respect the community of players.
  I am speaking to those who are leveling so fast it is just plain silly, getting so rich (by exploits and/or pushing the boundries of reasonable harvesting) it is just disgusting and to those who rarely (if ever) join in a GM quest or plot. All you want to do is level and power game, that style of game play is not encouraged here. We have a great group of players and RP'ers, lets allow that to remain so and give them the respect they deserve.
  Please don't send me a PM asking if I am speaking about you because I will not answer them. Sit back and think it over and decide for yourself. 90%+ of thepeople in the communityare just find and/or great... but it is the 5%-10% that is starting to harm the community and I am not going to allow it to happen. It is time for this group of people to sit back and think about things and make a tough decision.
 
 i think this covers it perfectly
Title: RE: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: jan on September 18, 2006, 11:02:13 am
On top of that... You will never be approved to go Epic (ie. more than 20th level) with such shallow characters.  When you are all about powergaming and leveling you have little to no time to RP and define your character and I simply will not approve your character going epic. And yes, I have to approve all characters before they can go to Epic Levels.( stated by Leanthar)


Since this allinea is nolonger in place i think that a new rule should be made for those reaching the lvll's 20 and up
Since there are no rules preventing people from getting there nomatter what they do,it has been exploided .
That is what i think anyway.
Title: RE: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Dorganath on September 18, 2006, 11:48:22 am
@jan:
  Your observations are probably in some part correct, though not completely. The problem is, however, that we could not maintain the Epic system due to a growing number of characters becoming epic-qualified (the right way, mind you) and not enough GMs capable of running the quests in a timely manner.  Due to reasons beyond the control of the players themselves, the Epic system was essentially a roadblock of titanic proportions, blocking all leveling (and all character progress in the eyes of some) until such time as a GM could get the time to run an ECDQ for each character.  ECDQs take a LOT of planning and interaction on the part of the GMs and players, and to put it briefly, they're very time-consuming.
  So we changed it, and yes, it makes things more permissive in terms of leveling, but it also made the whole process optional for those who did not wish to attain the extra status...for those who think that Level 21 and above are "just another level".  While I don't disagree that the Epic levels should be something special, being stuck for completely OOC reasons is simply not fun.  This is a game, afterall...we're here for fun.
  To put it another way, no option is really ideal. We can't have a restrictive Epic system with the size of the community we have now and handle things in a timely manner with the resources we currently have. This is a big factor in why we changed Epic to World Leader. It simply could not be maintained.
  Shortly before that we had the Soul Mother go on a little hiatus.  The intention of this (which by the way was the outcome of an ECDQ), was to give the Dragoncalled a bit of a respite as the war against Bloodstone entered its final phases...to take some of the fear of one's permanent demise away for those who were meeting the enemy and his generals on their own territory.
  Sadly, this produced an entire "generation" of players who had absolutely zero regard for their characters' safety, who would take disproportionate risks seeing the potential of significant rewards (XP, gold and items) with nothing to risk except the loss of a little gold that really wasn't theirs in the first place. These players knew the bindstones would bring them back safe if anything bad happened, and they could just wait it out and go back the next day to do it all over again, hoping to luck out and hit a big score of gold and treasure.
  The Soul Mother came back and perhaps some extra caution was shown, but by now those who took those risks were stronger, had learned how to handle the foes better and knew where to go to get the better score of returns.....and then they started taking their lower-level friends...which is a whole other problem.
  That initial post from Leanthar was made almost 2 years ago...when Epic still meant something and long before the Soul Mother went away for a bit.  Powergaming/powerleveling happened before the rule change, and perhaps with awareness it will subside for a while, but is does come back now and then.  While the change in Epic rules may have had some impact, it's not really accurate to lay the blame fully on that change.
  But thanks for bringing it up again.
  And as Leanthar said a long time ago, don't PM me asking me if I was talking about you.  I won't answer either.  But perhaps if you think it does pertain, then perhaps it does.
  And so that this thread doesn't turn into a litany of reasons and justifications on why one's character has leveled so fast, why they have dragged characters of significantly lower levels to East for the XP and loot (or who have themselves been dragged and benefited substantially as a result)....trust me, we've heard all of them. No need to list them.
  It may not matter, but someone who rockets up in levels is not going to get approved to attempt to become a World Leader just because they make the level requirements.  It just isn't going to happen.
  To everyone else, I know it's hard, but don't worry too much about what everyone else is doing level-wise.  If you're leveling slow, so what?  In my experience, most of the most interesting characters level slowly and take a RL year or more to reach level 20.  There's no hurry folks.  Like life, it's all about the journey, not the destination.
Title: RE: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: DMOE on September 18, 2006, 12:06:21 pm
Quote
jan - 9/18/2006  7:02 PM  On top of that... You will never be approved to go Epic (ie. more than 20th level) with such shallow characters.  When you are all about powergaming and leveling you have little to no time to RP and define your character and I simply will not approve your character going epic. And yes, I have to approve all characters before they can go to Epic Levels.( stated by Leanthar)   Since this allinea is nolonger in place i think that a new rule should be made for those reaching the lvll's 20 and up  Since there are no rules preventing people from getting there nomatter what they do,it has been exploided . That is what i think anyway.
 Not sure I agree with this.  While yes I agree that power leveling is not in the spirit of the server and not something I like to see there are people who reach 20th lvl and don't apply for WL for a very good reason.
  I am one of those.
  Ireth reached 20th a month or two ago and my year of being on server was up in August but yet I haven't applied to take Ireth WL.
  This isn't because I don't think she could be (although I am bias  :p ) but because I don't think she has a viable strong direction in her life that she can move along.
  She has lots of intresting bits in her past that could be worked into a WL quest, a very strong link to the Toranite Church which could also be used but no CLEAR path to move along at the moment.
  Now this may simply be because I'm too close to her to see one (feel free to PM me any sensible suggestions  ;) ) or that at present there isn't one.
  So rather than bother the over worked DM Team with discussing my WL application to refuse it on being too weak or having no direction I have decided to wait until a direction presents itself, if it ever does.
  Now, love or hate Ireth....I RP...Or at least do my best too!
  Should I be penalised for not trying to force my character in a direction just so I can apply for WL Status?  Trust me if there is a rule in place that means people have to apply to go higher than 20th then people will force their characters into directions and the teams workload will increase as well as those who are refused getting cheesed off when really they probably shouldn't have applied in the first case.  I'd like to point out I am NOT talking about anyone who has applied for WL and been refused now...talking about if we went back to having to say, having be WL to go past 20th.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Leanthar on September 18, 2006, 12:07:23 pm
Well stated Dorganath.
Title: RE: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: jan on September 18, 2006, 12:31:16 pm
Quote
DMOE - 9/18/2006  9:06 PM    
Quote
jan - 9/18/2006  7:02 PM  On top of that... You will never be approved to go Epic (ie. more than 20th level) with such shallow characters.  When you are all about powergaming and leveling you have little to no time to RP and define your character and I simply will not approve your character going epic. And yes, I have to approve all characters before they can go to Epic Levels.( stated by Leanthar)   Since this allinea is nolonger in place i think that a new rule should be made for those reaching the lvll's 20 and up  Since there are no rules preventing people from getting there nomatter what they do,it has been exploided . That is what i think anyway.
 Not sure I agree with this.  While yes I agree that power leveling is not in the spirit of the server and not something I like to see there are people who reach 20th lvl and don't apply for WL for a very good reason.
  I am one of those.
  Ireth reached 20th a month or two ago and my year of being on server was up in August but yet I haven't applied to take Ireth WL.
  This isn't because I don't think she could be (although I am bias  :p ) but because I don't think she has a viable strong direction in her life that she can move along.
  She has lots of intresting bits in her past that could be worked into a WL quest, a very strong link to the Toranite Church which could also be used but no CLEAR path to move along at the moment.
  Now this may simply be because I'm too close to her to see one (feel free to PM me any sensible suggestions  ;) ) or that at present there isn't one.
  So rather than bother the over worked DM Team with discussing my WL application to refuse it on being too weak or having no direction I have decided to wait until a direction presents itself, if it ever does.
  Now, love or hate Ireth....I RP...Or at least do my best too!
  Should I be penalised for not trying to force my character in a direction just so I can apply for WL Status?  Trust me if there is a rule in place that means people have to apply to go higher than 20th then people will force their characters into directions and the teams workload will increase as well as those who are refused getting cheesed off when really they probably shouldn't have applied in the first case.  I'd like to point out I am NOT talking about anyone who has applied for WL and been refused now...talking about if we went back to having to say, having be WL to go past 20th.
 I was more thinking about looking at a char if it is roleplayed at all or just levelld up for the levells itself . That way , yes ,there would be more work for the staff and yes, they could use the time better . But i realy think it would stop,or atleast to a reasonable extend delay,the powerlevellers.  This suggestion was never intended to force people in any direction other then rping itself.
Title: RE: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Dorganath on September 18, 2006, 12:44:25 pm
Quote
jan - 9/18/2006  2:31 PM  
  I was more thinking about looking at a char if it is roleplayed at all or just levelld up for the levells itself . That way , yes ,there would be more work for the staff and yes, they could use the time better . But i realy think it would stop,or atleast to a reasonable extend delay,the powerlevellers.  This suggestion was never intended to force people in any direction other then rping itself.
 It would to a degree, but the problem existed before that, as I said before, and is certainly not a magic cure-all for the issue. We simply cannot sustain the pace the old Epic system, so the chances that it would come back, at least in its previous form, is slim.  It had become too great of a strain on the already over-booked GM Team.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Allorian on September 18, 2006, 01:32:06 pm
How about players who spend much time on a server? They will get a vast amount of EXP in any case simply because of the amount of time spent playing their character. I would not consider such actions as powerleveling. Some nights I spend near 10 hours on my Character, doing so allows a vast amount of RPing (you can usually find my wizard, Raine holding chats with Ozy in Hlint or voicing his mind to others near the bank for a good amount of time) However, when a player is on for such lengths, they is no doubt that their avatars will be invited to multiple adventure groups. Many characters, as paladins, or rogues find themselves unable to resist such invitations simply for RP reasons; Paladins many times feel an obligation to characters in need (or should for that matter) and crafty rogues and bards would find the profits nescessary. There is nothing outside of roleplaying with those decisions.

Furthermore there are the Rangers and Druids. These two classes should, through RP reasons, feel an obligation to combat the many threats to the woodlands, ex. fighting through undead crypts or removing ilk from their beloved forests.

In short, people who spend a great deal of time playing their character and achieving a hefty amount of EXP deserve such; however A character who decides to continously kill the same creatures for no reason, or a created reason which seems out of character should definately be penalized. But the people who rack near 100 hours a week of playtime deserve some reward for their dedication to Layonara. Note that I am not advocating power leveling (I do not think characters should step out of their bounds based on their level and aformentioned exploitation/exp farming; I am advocating the fact that I see many players advancing quickly, but through a means which would seem proper. With my character Raine, I find myself venturing out on many quests, however he is quite poor and spends a good majority of his time in Hlint participating in discussions and learning from Ozy...)

I guess I just gave a long synopsis to create a background for the question I pose. Is their a penalty for such characters whom advance quickly due to dedication to the game rather than powerleveling?
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Guardian 452 on September 18, 2006, 02:28:47 pm
So long as there is something more to be obtainted it is human nature to want it, and want it as fast as possible.

Those who make it past level 20 in 7 months.... well... I hope it was a fun ride. Your never going become a WL simply because you can mow down a spawns of eneimes by yourself on East Server.


Some people will never make it to high levels because of RL, and the fact that EXP has been cut down so many times already by the Power Leveling croud.


All I can say is go play your characters, RP and have fun. Don't get hung up on others.


G-452


Title: RE: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Dorganath on September 18, 2006, 02:31:20 pm
@Allorian to quote myself:
 
Quote
And so that this thread doesn't turn into a litany of reasons and justifications on why one's character has leveled so fast, why they have dragged characters of significantly lower levels to East for the XP and loot (or who have themselves been dragged and benefited substantially as a result)....trust me, we've heard all of them. No need to list them.
 If one spends a lot of time online, one can also spend a lot of time RPing. The first few levels are fast. It should slow down about 7th and take on a more normal pace. We're not saying don't adventure...we're not saying don't have fun. But this server is about RP. So RP first, and if an adventure breaks out, then so be it. Just keep RPing as your goal. And if you think you're leveling too fast, then stop gaining XP. It's really not all that hard to do. My own character went about 2 months once between levels....and that was with frequent play time. It can be done.
  Trust me...we've heard all the "what if's".
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Allorian on September 18, 2006, 03:02:15 pm
I think I was misunderstood. I am not promoting power levels, am I just saying that a person who dedicates a good deal of playing will level fairly quickly. I have made alternate characters trying to prevent that from occuring, but I find that if you spend a long period of time on Layonara, you will advance quite quickly do to simply playing and participating in the World. Game events give huge amounts of EXP and it is not like I neglect to RP my character, I spend most my time RPing and you can see in the character development forum I activily update Raine's posting...

I am not truely speaking from personal experience, just playing a bit of devil's advocate to players who advance quickly through plot related instances. People who just play to go out and level though I have found to be quite annoying. I will not mention names, however I have sent a few tells saying for them to perhaps go to another server; they ruin groups and the over all Roleplaying experience....Exp for events is pretty substantial I have found; its why I do not do so many.  One event required only attendence and no speaking for 2 hours and yielding quite a hefty EXP bonus. This is the only reason why I have brought up the topic; if a character participates in multiple events each week they will find themselves advancing very, very quickly.
Title: RE: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Dorganath on September 18, 2006, 04:46:48 pm
Actually, you were not misunderstood.
  My point was though that one does not need to gain a single point of XP while playing. One can choose not to participate in quests. One can chose not to go out frequently and gaining XP. There's really no excuse for leveling quickly...there are a lot of reasons, but no real excuses. We know that a lot of time in-game often translates to more rapid leveling. But know also that it's permissible to refuse quest XP, it's permissible to ask a GM to remove XP from one's character, and I personally know several people who have intentionally slowed their own leveling and still played just as often.
  I understand completely what you were trying to do, but in this case, the devil needs no advocates. It has plenty as it is.
  As I said using my own example, I have played for two solid weeks (pretty much every day for several hours each day) and gained little or no XP during that time. I've taken months to gain levels, and that was playing actively. It can be done. Most of us did it that way. Only a few did not. But those few make other people, good players, take notice and wonder why some other people who started after them get to gain so many levels and they do not. It inspires jealosy and a desire to obtain what others have. It inspires a culture of fast leveling and that is simply not good for this community.
  Oh, and to be clear, my last response was in no way an accusation against you personally. I have no idea what kind of a player you are, and so no judgements were being made.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Allorian on September 18, 2006, 05:35:20 pm
Well in that case, I understand completely.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Tanman on September 18, 2006, 05:42:05 pm
I  concur, and just would like to add a few things of what I do.

At one point, I spend a vast amount of times in weekends and week nights playing Layonara and have been invited into quests. I try to RP to what my character would think, and even at some points walked away because my character did not like the other characters in the group.

While I still join quests, I make sure that everything is RP, even when there are party invites. I will often reject the party invites if they are blatantly given without any RP andgive a friendly reminder to the other party that they please RP the invitation first. I think everyone likes levelling, but I feel it is cheapened if it happens quickly. Gaining a level should feel like its earnt and to me power levelling doesn't do that. I also get sick and tired of the things that people will do in order to power level, I remember in one circumstance we had a party and one of the members just turned invisible for the whole trip without doing anything and just collected XP from the monsters killed

I am not saying don't go invisible while in combat. I have a friend that does go invisible, but as a bard, he casts spells and heals people/and plays music to raise morale for the benefit of the group. He will interchange between invisible and being visible for RP purposes. He uses it appropriately.

RP should be encouraged, which is the reason why I am all for this magic wand that WL and DM hold so that they can reward good XP in exceptional circumstances.
Title: RE: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Hellblazer on September 18, 2006, 11:47:04 pm
Quote
jan - 9/18/2006  1:46 PM for the place we were. And after thinking about it the dm was right (server recomendation for chars going to east is lvll 18+ i think and for central its 14 or 15+)  
 And there i went thinking that because the lowest level you needed to be, to get quest on central was 10 it made that part of the world lvl 10 recomended...  :o  
  Well Been here 6 month yesterday, yeah  8) ,played well over what my xfire stateand still lvl 12, guess im not part of that category.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Pen N Popper on September 19, 2006, 03:36:11 am
Once you hit level 10, central is a great place to travel with a party.  If you solo then I guess you'd need to be higher.
Title: RE: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Tanman on September 22, 2006, 08:44:01 pm
After revisting this a few thread times,
Quote
Dorganath - 9/19/2006  11:46 AM
  Only a few did not. But those few make other people, good players, take notice and wonder why some other people who started after them get to gain so many levels and they do not.  It inspires jealosy and a desire to obtain what others have.  It inspires a culture of fast leveling and that is simply not good for this community.


I know I have seen some fast levellers out there. Some that would get to level 9 ina a span of a month or less. Yes I too started to wonder. But when I thought about it, I felt that they are really only going to affect me if I actually interact with them. So I just let them be and RP/quest with those players that do want to make this the great world this is.

In truth, power levelling does becoming boring after a while, and for those people that do will probably leave on their own accord anyway.

Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Lilswanwillow on September 23, 2006, 02:07:29 pm
gods I wish I had these friends...  my first post was 11/21/05, and I'm still level 9.  I prefer to RP than to level, but I do wish to level at the same time.
I was gone for three months, and in that time the people that started the same week/time as I are now twice my level, and people that started while I WAS away are up into thier 20's for some.  I feel horribble that I was an am left out, and many adventures are lost to me, but that is ok.  I know I am NOT going to level for a long time still, cause I am not one to go out adventuring much.  My fault.  
BUT I'm not a power leveler, and I bet a ton of people know me now.  I'd prefer to be known not as "level 20 wow, super killer"  but as the sweet lil elfie that sits in town talking to people.
and now theres bards calling me bard! huh...  ok, lost track of thought...
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Etinfall on September 23, 2006, 05:28:56 pm
Heh, I bet I got ya beat on slow leveling :) I used to get worked up about faster levelers, but eventually everybody levels faster than me. But it does get hard to rp inexperience when the one you are rp'ing with is a higher level but only been around for a month or two. But we just need to remember that is all ooc and not grind my teeth ;)

Etinfall
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: LordCove on September 26, 2006, 07:08:19 am
gods I wish I had these friends... my first post was 11/21/05, and I'm still level 9. I prefer to RP than to level, but I do wish to level at the same time - Lilswanwillow

Gods....and I thought I was slow. I must confess....Im dying to hit my next level....but I sure as hell aint gonna go wandering Dregar under-armed and unequipped. I remember when a Epic char Perm'd, leaving the wise message to 'look after your Death Tokens. At level 10....youre not so concerned if you gain one....at Level 20, its a bloody nightmare.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Allorian on September 26, 2006, 03:15:23 pm
My main character has stayed at level seven for quite some time now, mostly because I enjoy sitting around hlint and roleplaying...Alot of the players I started out with are a higher level than I, but I really do not mind. I enjoy playing my character the way he is, I update his CDF frenquently and have found myself greatly immersed in his character.
Title: RE: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: d20mushroom on September 27, 2006, 10:56:44 am
Thinking on the matter... some people may rush to level ten with one character in order to play another. To be able to submit a chaotic neutral character you must have been at Layonara for at least two months, and have a character of level ten or higher.

A player who spends all their time role playing will not reach level ten in two months. But they will probably increase their skill in role playing. Still, this aquired skill in role playing will not gain them their chaotic neutral character.

So a person who is desperate to play a cleric of Corath - a cleric that would need to start as chaotic neutral, would probably spend two months levelling their first character as fast as they can in order to submit their Corath cleric.

I personally think it would be better to make the restriction four months instead of two, and get rid of the level requirement. At least then, the player would realize that rushing their first character would do them no good, they would simply have to wait four months - and why would they spend four months powerlevelling, when they could be role playing a character trying to find out as much as they can about the world to prepare them for playing their chaotic neutral character?




Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Leanthar on September 27, 2006, 11:42:32 am
@d20mushroom, yeah we had it like that for a bit. What the players decided to do was submit a character and get them to level 4-6 then quit playing... then apply in 3 months (I think that is what we had it at). No matter what we do people try to work around the system. :)
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Hellblazer on September 27, 2006, 10:07:05 pm
Well setting a firm time frime of heavy rp with a well develped cdt and world integration would be the easyest way.  Say that you have a firm time frame of 6 Rl months on the server, have to be seen by all teh gms and Wl as a good rping person that takes parts in the world development and interaction.  Then have a mini test of what it is to be evil (have 200 question ready with a randomizer so no one can actualy say this is what you will get lol).  If the person passes all that then he would be approved to get a chaotic evil person once approved at char submission and even then, have him be a true neutral for an other 6 months with a couple of cdq and an other well develop cdt to get to his evill side.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Weeblie on September 27, 2006, 11:46:28 pm
Unfortunately, that person wouldn't be able to play that character after the alignment switch to Chaotic Evil... Or rather, the PC would automaticly be turned into a NPC. ;)
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Polak76 on September 28, 2006, 12:03:54 am
The main thing that used to annoy me with fast levelers is the respect change once they pass your lvl.
Back in the day I used to have people see my character and flock to him so they could go for a trip around mistone and earn some experience which they couldnt do alone.  Then the minute they pass your lvl they change their respect and even look down upon you as a lesser being.

That can be viewed as a form of metagaming in my opinion.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Hellblazer on September 28, 2006, 12:39:37 pm
it is as the only way for them to know your level or aproxcimation of level is through lore, ooc talk or the info card.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: fighting_cheese on September 30, 2006, 01:08:19 am
It takes me ages to level *sighs*
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Eight-Bit on September 30, 2006, 07:58:25 am
Quote
fighting_cheese - 9/30/2006 4:08 AM It takes me ages to level *sighs*
 I have a lot of old characters, cheeseman, one of which who is older than nearly every epic out there, yet it's still 19. Does it make me a better RPer? Nope. Do I have better standing in the community? Nope. It's all a matter of how you want to play, and I just do not have the time to put into this when I did back in highschool.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Timmy0420 on April 14, 2007, 09:05:16 pm
i am in total agreement that power leveling is a bad thing, i also believe its unrealistic to expect people to artifically level slowly.(ie removal of xp, refusal of xp on quests etc) since the gaining of xp from rping and combat represents the growth and strengthening of a particular character. so character a goes out and kills a bunch of monsters or learns some things from someone or is integral to some crazy plot etc etc. it seems to me that this character would learn and grow from this experience. slowing your leveling by not going monster pwning and sticking around town and chatting with everyone is a very good way to do it if thats your wish. but i see nothing wrong with leveling quickly if you actually rp and participate in the community.
 
      take tadhg for example, ive played him for two months and hes already reached lvl 13. i keep a cdt, attend many DM quests and RP while out PvMing. i have bowed out of a quest before because 1. the members of the party were all rubbing him the wrong way and 2. the goals of the quest werent really correct for his alignment(heh, he even went as far as to warn the enemy of the party of their plans). also, by his very nature he wishes to be powerful and be like one of the many heroes hes read/heard about, so it makes sense for him to train/study alot.(not to mention im a complete layo addict ^_^)
 
    @polack 76. i agree with you, though it would make sense for a character to know whos powerful and who isint if theyve traveled with them and seen them in combat. then it isnt metagaming i dont think.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Laldiien on April 15, 2007, 04:30:55 pm
Does this actually apply still?
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Odranoela on April 15, 2007, 05:27:51 pm
I couldn't agree more, however, it gets frustrating when you are the only one who can't participate on a quest, because who's running it puts all kinds of level, party members restriction.
 
I play my character for a couple of months now [I think], Lino is level 7 and I am still to find one quest that will accept me.
Yes, in these two months, all quests I attended either had a level limit of 10 - 12, gave preference to the older players and many actually closed just for an exclusive group. I haven't seen any rolling of dice being done to see who gets to participate or not. I have seen GMs put party size limits, and ask of the players that did not get to participate not to "sweat it"... Come on now...Players just want to participate. It's why we are here in the first place and if we don't get the chance to show our RP, interact with others, there's no point in being here.
I also don't have much time to play, so when I hear a quest is going on I do my best to reach the folks and ask if i can participate.
...I still haven't found one single quest I was either acepted or invited to participate, and I've looked/asked around, believe me. Not to mention most quests are ran in Central, which has a level limit of 8...
While I have seen characters really powerlevel, and even actually saying to me "Let's go somewhere hard, I want levels" and disagree with it, I also can understand why would someone want to rush it to at least level 10 and feel a bitmore "accepted" or allowed to participate in the world...

My sincere apologies if you consider this ranting or complaining, but it is not. It's a fair point of view of a guy that joined this server about two months ago and had some disapointments. Thanks for the time reading it.

Lino
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Drizzlin on April 15, 2007, 06:00:36 pm
@Odranoela

I understand where you are coming from about getting on quests. I will say this, not to defend the DMs, but as a point of fact, that the number of people allowed on a quest HAS to be limited if you want good rp and less lag.

When you get 10+ people running around with spell effects and everyone trying to talk, it makes it extremly hard for the DMs to run a 3-4 hour quest. Then with the lag you run into people dying and receiving DTs.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Dorganath on April 15, 2007, 07:07:50 pm
Quote from: Odranoela
Not to mention most quests are ran in Central, which has a level limit of 8...

If a GM-led event takes place on Central, you can participate if you meet the level requirements for the quest.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Odranoela on April 17, 2007, 06:10:16 am
I just don't get it why would there even be level requirements for quests..
It makes absolutely no sense that all quests are level restriced and we're asked not to gain levels too fast..
Should a lvl 3 character just rot and wait until he's lvl 10 to able to participate?
Would it really be powergaming if this player tried to rush as fast as he can the levels to be able to play quests with others?
This brings me to the Oh Well (http://www.layonara.com/475318-post1.html) post...
I can relate to what that player has been through, would you still have him experience all this difficulty to participate in a quest after that disastrous episode?
It would be greatly appreciated, and not only by me, if there were quests specific for low level characters, new players or not, unless they're not worth the effort and time.
I'm sorry for insisting on the subject, but couldn't we find some balance for this situation?

Sincerely,

ODR.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Timmy0420 on April 17, 2007, 06:28:17 am
youre completely right odranoela. on the one hand they expect you to not level too fast and on the other many quests have level requirements. this cannot be a balance issue since the higher levels can simply pick up the slack and DMs can tweak the spawns. it is both unfair and hypocritical (heh and dont even think about getting to be in a plot quest unless youre level sixteen or higher)
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Harlas Ravelkione on April 17, 2007, 06:48:18 am
@Timmy: Have you not participated in my quests lately? They are plot related.

You assume much, while you know little about the mechanics involved in running a quest. Spawns can be modified, but only so much. If anyone is allowed on a high combat quest MANY low levels will be killed by a spawn that is meant to challenge the epic characters in the group. It's a fact. One meteor swarm and most lvl 10 people are dead and throw a dice against the soul mother. Do you prefer that?
It is a balance issue. It is much easier to design good fights for a group that is evened out level-wise.

Harlas
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Nibor21 on April 17, 2007, 06:50:41 am
Quest limits are in place to ensure the fun is in for everyone in the quest

If a quest is combat based then either the lvl 3 fighter gets creamed by the spawns or the level 15 mage is bored witless. The range levels for quests ensure that everyone on the quest has a reasonably balanced combat experience.

We are however in the process of adding more hard coded scripts for lower levels.

Another thing worth considering that quests are as much about character actions as they are about combat prowess. And it often takes time for a new character to properly develop his or her personality.

Oh and there are often quests for lower levelled players. But we only have so many GMs and their time is limited.

Nibor
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: DMOE on April 17, 2007, 07:08:10 am
I have counted four quest on the calender open to new players and either with no level limit or a request to PM the DM if you are outside the level limit so encounters can be tweaked.....

Yes....Returning players are given priority on some but as quests that are not stand alone involving solving things with information gained each week then to not do that would quite frankly be dumb.

That having be said....Not all players do return, for various reasons so it is always worth going and seeing if there is a space.

Remember...DM Quest are not simply about gaining XP....You should be thinking if the quest is appropriate for your character, not just going for the XP hand out at the end.  I have not returned and even walked off quests as it was not appropriate to my character to be involved and would like to thing others do to.  That of course then leaves a slot free for another character to fill.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: jrizz on April 17, 2007, 07:11:14 am
hey guys give the team a chance here. They just put out V3 and now are working on the balance issues. Sit tight and stay tuned I am sure there are cool things coming up soon.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Drizzlin on April 17, 2007, 07:36:20 am
Quote from: Odranoela
I just don't get it why would there even be level requirements for quests..
It makes absolutely no sense that all quests are level restriced and we're asked not to gain levels too fast..
Should a lvl 3 character just rot and wait until he's lvl 10 to able to participate?
Would it really be powergaming if this player tried to rush as fast as he can the levels to be able to play quests with others?
This brings me to the Oh Well (http://www.layonara.com/475318-post1.html) post...
I can relate to what that player has been through, would you still have him experience all this difficulty to participate in a quest after that disastrous episode?
It would be greatly appreciated, and not only by me, if there were quests specific for low level characters, new players or not, unless they're not worth the effort and time.
I'm sorry for insisting on the subject, but couldn't we find some balance for this situation?

Sincerely,

ODR.



If I am a DM, trying to build a quest, I need to have an idea of the levels I am building it for. I wouldn't want level 5 creatures when I have a group of level 20s, nor would I want to have level 20 npcs spawn on level 5 creatures.

By setting a level limit of say 10 - 15, I can then make sure the possible creatures that they run into fit within their challenge rating. There are other reasons like rewards, rp, and everyone in the group being able to contribute to consider as well.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: egoober on April 17, 2007, 08:17:42 am
I can only answer for myself, but I only have one reason for putting a lower level limit on a quest I run.

Simply, if it's there, it's probably because the combats I am anticipating are of a certain power level, and I'd rather not kill huge numbers of PCs off (well, not too quickly anyway ;) )
With a fixed party size too many characters of to low a level will spell disaster, or a re-write of the quest. Given that I prefer to run reasonably small parties, I can choose to post a lower level limit.
In a similar vein, characters of too high a level may well find everything too easy!

"Tweaking the spawns" is sometimes easier said than done, especially if said spawns include custom built creature or NPC's.

That said, if I'm running a quest and people outside of the posted limits PM me in advance and ask to come along, I will usually try to be flexible. A polite "No, not this time, sorry" is the worse that they will get!
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Kindo on April 17, 2007, 08:53:46 am
I do want level requirements on GM quests. It's especially annoying when it's levels 1-40, because then you know the entire thing will be overrun and taken over by epics. No quest is fun when there's a bunch of epic-level characters making all the calls. Limiting the level range is a good thing, that will make the participating players feel more involved and more in their right place. 5-15 is good, 5-10 is even better. Or 10-15. If the range is much greater than that, the "lower levels" will just feel pushed aside, as if they're just riding along as someone else is driving. Sure, there's still the role-play factor, and the lower levels can still participate socially in speech and what not, but as soon as any combat breaks out or rolls are made for role-play/adventuring purposes, they are immediately more or less useless. I can tell you it's not a good feeling when you're in that situation, and eventually you just realize this quest isn't for you any more. It's for the high-levels - the epics, which is why I hope more Game Masters will put stricter level requirements on their quests, and not to allow "any level" to join when you know there will be combat or other adventuring factors involving the mechanics of one's player character. Because that is actually inadvertently excluding the low levels.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Blackguy on April 17, 2007, 09:12:11 am
I'd like to state that us "epics" have the same problems as many low levels have. Its getting better now. But there was a time from around december and until march where the only quests a Epic could join were those 1-40 that you mention is "overrun" by Epics. Luckily this have started to change abit, and every level range is represented on the calender.
 
 But I agree that quests open to all on GMT timeslots primetime draws alot of people. Even if its only a RP quest, it would be nice to not have quests that said open to all. But this have been discussed to death by people again and again, and there will always be lows and highs for quests.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: IceDragonDuvessa on April 17, 2007, 09:12:30 am
I never put level requirements on my quests and I never will. Many of them wound up being led by the less than epic characters as well. The trick to running open level quests is look for the players RPing their butt off... those are the ones that are going to be prominent in the series.

The problem is more often low levels see the higher levels and say meh Ill just be along for the ride and don't even bother to try.

For example on one plot series that I ran... a level 9 character became instrumental in the success of the quest for her cleverness and roleplaying ability. 5 epic characters on the series as well they did better on the roles so they often got more information up front... but the lower levels worked a bit harder at figuring things out and often worked out the answers a bit quicker by putting in the extra effort beyond throwing dice. Then there were the low levels that never said a word and just followed along... they often found themselves dead and removed from the series for not putting in any effort.

Quests are what the player makes of them. Lower levels will have to put in more effort since they don't have the established credibility, allies and mechanically higher skills but... how the heck do you think epics got to where they are? By putting in that same effort and rping thier rears off.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Dorganath on April 17, 2007, 09:46:27 am
Quote from: Kindo
I do want level requirements on GM quests. It's especially annoying when it's levels 1-40, because then you know the entire thing will be overrun and taken over by epics. No quest is fun when there's a bunch of epic-level characters making all the calls. Limiting the level range is a good thing, that will make the participating players feel more involved and more in their right place. 5-15 is good, 5-10 is even better. Or 10-15. If the range is much greater than that, the "lower levels" will just feel pushed aside, as if they're just riding along as someone else is driving. Sure, there's still the role-play factor, and the lower levels can still participate socially in speech and what not, but as soon as any combat breaks out or rolls are made for role-play/adventuring purposes, they are immediately more or less useless. I can tell you it's not a good feeling when you're in that situation, and eventually you just realize this quest isn't for you any more. It's for the high-levels - the epics, which is why I hope more Game Masters will put stricter level requirements on their quests, and not to allow "any level" to join when you know there will be combat or other adventuring factors involving the mechanics of one's player character. Because that is actually inadvertently excluding the low levels.

With respect, I think this is a very unfair and sweeping generalization about epic and high-level characters.

In most cases, if there are no level caps or there is a very long range of levels allowed, that typically means that combat will be de-emphasized or non-existent.  But if combat does happen to break out, then yeah, of course, higher level characters are going to dominate.  It's just simple mechanics.

Moving on...as a player and a GM I have seen myself where 90% of a quest's participants are wallflowers and only when one or more "epics" or higher-level characters that you seem to disdain to a degree actually takes some kind of action do things move along.  The very simple fact about quest participation is one gets out of it what one puts into it.  Epic and high level characters have, for the most part, been here a long time and are experienced with GM-led quests and RP in general.  There's so much that one can learn by watching and working with these characters rather than fostering feelings of exclusion and hostility when one of them actually does something.  In addition, they tend to know more about the world and game mechanics and sometimes actually possess the skill and knowledge level required to complete things...or at least help things along.  There is almost always something for everyone to contribute on a quest, regardless of level. But a means of contributing is not just going to be handed to someone by the GM...a player and his/her character have to take initiative.

I don't intend this to be an attack or criticism against you in the least, but I do take some exception to the way you have worded your comment.

Sadly, it just goes to show how the GM Team can never make everyone happy.  This issue is cyclical, and here's how that cycle goes.

Players complain that there are too many restrictions on levels...not enough for low-level characters or perhaps not enough, if any, for higher-level or epic-level characters.  GMs respond and open up the limits and requirements to be less exclusive.  Then people complain there aren't enough spots on quests for everyone who wants to go on it, or that the "epics" take over or whatever.  So then more focused quests are put on the calendar with smaller level ranges.  Almost invariably, epic characters are left out of that loop, and there's nothing available for them except maybe a plot quest or two. So then GM's try to accommodate more people by opening up the level requirements, and it all starts all over again.

If we had 50 GMs, we could have plenty of quests with narrow and broad requirements, lots of time overlaps and something to please everyone, but we don't, so we do the best we can and we try to be responsive, but as I described, someone is always unhappy.

And for what it's worth, my "epic" character is perfectly happy to let someone else walk in front and lead a quest, though he will still do what he thinks is appropriate, and if that means using the skills he's worked hard to develop, then so be it.  And if that means taking some sort of charge if he thinks that things aren't going right, then so be it.

If I can offer one other piece of experienced advice...

I've seen far too much bickering (IC and OOC) about who should be leading a quest.  There's almost always a division down the lower/higher level lines, with the former wanting someone to give them a chance and the latter just wanting things to move along.  The fact of the matter is that there is rarely a "best" leader for a quest, nor should that be the focus.  What should be the focus is getting things accomplished...for either assembling the best team for the task or making the best use of the people assembled to ensure a positive outcome.

It was requested before the last plot quest that new people be given a chance to contribute and even lead, with a suggestion that plot quest participation be a rotating thing to give everyone a shot.  The quest had a very permissive level limit and a party cap at 16.  About 24 people showed up for the quest, some bowed out gracefully after the first hour once the scenario was set up and what occurred is that the party sort of self-organized based on what had occurred in the first hour.  After the quest, it was remarked that the party ended up being exactly as it needed to be, and I personally saw participation, input and RP from just about everyone there to the limits of their character's abilities.

Anyway, I didn't mean for this to be so long, but it's very hard sometimes to see sweeping generalities about a particular group of characters.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Harlas Ravelkione on April 17, 2007, 11:40:05 am
Amen Dorganath. You said just about everything that I meant to say.

This cycle is indeed repeting itself over and over and over again. If you have been here for a few years you notice the pattern and whatever we do it will continue to be that way.

Consider this for a moment ---> The entire GM Team works very hard to create realism, stories and epic battles for you! All of you - the whole community of Layonara. That means new players, old players, characters played by GMs, returning players, etc. This has been said many many times, but some people seem to need this piece of information every once in a while.  Are there other servers that offer you this service? Servers that offer you the opportunity to influence the happenings in the world if you show initiative? That let you evolve via roleplay into prestige classes - not simply via levelling and choosing, but by creating your own history and background? Servers where you can pick a GM who then spends hours to plan a personal character development quest for you?

Perhaps there is/are other places that offer the same. I don't know. All I can tell you that there are very talented people in the Team. People that spend time to plan entertainment for the community instead of solving equations or building cars that run on air. I am proud of being a part of it and I am looking forward to every quest I run because I like to see other players have fun and enjoy what I create around and for them.

Harlas
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Interia_Discordius on April 17, 2007, 12:45:24 pm
I just wanted to state...
Despite "epics" being on a quest, a GM isn't going to exclude you just because you're low level and your roll happens to be, well, just that. Low.

I've only played here for about three to four months now, roughly, and I've been using my main character Kinai often in quests. I've realized that yes, "epics" can "dominate"...But that's because most people -let- them. Heck, whenever I took Kinai and started playing chatterbox as her or throwing in my two cents or did whatever else that involved contributing, I was involved. I'm still low level, not as much as before, but when I was low...I still got to play. It didn't happen in every quest, and I wasn't about to take any sort of lead in every one of them, but moreso...

Just being actively engaged can give the GM a better chance to add you along. At least that's how I see it.

Seriously though, I just had to state...Low levels aren't being actively unincluded, I don't think. You might have to work harder because you can't depend on rolls or some such, but it's quite possible to be a prominant part of the quest despite being low level.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Kindo on April 17, 2007, 12:46:22 pm
I should have stated more clearly that I did not mean my post as any kind of an attack against any of the Game Masters. I also apologize for making it sound so generalizing. Obviously, not everyone can be happy all the time about what's going on. Unfortunately. I mainly just wanted to point out that some level restrictions might be good in certain events where game mechanics will be present (such as combat), just in order to prevent the lower levels from feeling completely weak and useless. Believe me, when you're in a group as a level 8, and giant spells like Weird start flying around the screen, you are suddenly violently reminded of your mouse-like state of being. You cannot contribute, nor are you needed to contribute. All you can do is tag along, trying to dodge those massive area of effect spells being cast. Surely, you can see how this is not entirely fun, and it cased me at least to give up after a bit and ask to leave the event. Naturally, I have not been on every quest ever planned. In fact, I have not been on many, so I do not want this to be a sweeping generalization. I'm sure there are plenty of quests that turn out good and fun for everyone, but the fact still remains that these things do happen. This is not a big strife or complaint, I am just voicing my opinion of how I would prefer it if the levels allowed were a bit more condensed. Sure, if you are running a long series of quests in which you want everyone to be able to participate, I understand if you want as many people as possible to feel welcome, but you still run the risk of certain low-levels ending up feeling a bit out of place.


Edit: Yes, Christine. I am not speaking of general adventuring of solving puzzles, and the more social bit. It's when the mechanics get involved, of which the higher levels clearly benefit from (Low-level rolls a lucky 20 on whatever skill check  while the higher level rolls a so-so 50), that some people might experience some sense of "out of place." Also, keep in mind, if there are 15-20 players in the group at the same time, it is really hard to role-play properly and react to everything everyone is saying and doing.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: gilshem ironstone on April 17, 2007, 12:54:23 pm
I am goin to add my two cents about the lower-level versus epic level debate.  For what it is worth at least and that I do not know.

I think that if one takes a chance to not let themselves be intimidated by the power, and more importantly the real-life experience that various PC's have on this server then what Dorganath and Harlas said are completely true.

I have been on a quest with my lvl 9 PC, another of the same level, a lvl 13 PC, a lvl 17 PC and a lvl 26 PC as a party and from the RP and play between us I do not think you could defintively say who was what level.  When out of combat it always comes down to the input given by each player and how the others in the party respond.

I find it gets trickier in large groups where every player wants to input and the party runs the risk of having an unfollowable conversation.  Currently, at this time I feel I am not very good in those situations and so I often sit back and learn from those players that have more experience/talent at dealing with large groups.  I input what I can, where I feel it is valuable and try and walk away a better player than I was before.

I know I have felt like I cannot get a word in edgewise sometimes, but that comes and goes, and I think with patience every player will find that there is a place for their PC's views in the party.  But overall I have found the high-level characters are very receptive to all players inputs.

Combat is a different beast.  Game-mechanics are undeniable and of course a high-level PC will have an edge.  But I like to think that GM's notice, when they have time, how lower-level PC's respond in those situations as well.  How they plug-themselves in to a party where they might not make ALL the difference, but try to make a difference none the less.  I don't know, maybe one of the GM's can speak further to that.

But over all I believe that people should play their PC to the best of their ability, and not worry about being the key player in a quest all the time. Rather, we should all contribute in the best fashion we can and tell a great, immersive story.  That is the real reward of RP, and Layonara's greatest asset.

Sorry, if this post seems messy, but I hope something of value can be taken from it.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Interia_Discordius on April 17, 2007, 12:56:49 pm
Quote from: Kindo

Edit: Yes, Christine. I am not speaking of general adventuring of solving puzzles, and the more social bit. It's when the mechanics get involved, of which the higher levels clearly benefit from (Low-level rolls a lucky 20 on whatever skill check  while the higher level rolls a so-so 50), that some people might experience some sense of "out of place." Also, keep in mind, if there are 15-20 players in the group at the same time, it is really hard to role-play properly and react to everything everyone is saying and doing.


Very true, heh, and that's when I personally just take to the back and start screaming whatever to totally annoy the team.
**huggles her Kinai**

Really though, I can understand that part. Most battles in the quests I'm in are totally over my head, but that's fine. Your chance of death is high, but it's not like the GM is throwing battle after countless battle (although it did seem a bit like that on the quest I think you're talking about, Kindo...it stopped soon after though).

To be honest, I -like- having the chance to die a lot on the quests. It keeps me from getting some god-like complex, and also gives the feeing of realism that you can't go and bash every enemy you face into the ground. The epics are decades older than most of the lower levels, so I don't see it as much as levels as plain age.

For the long-timers who aren't high level? Pyyran made a darn good example by telling Kinai he's been scouting longer than she's been alive. That made me giggle...

I think I'm rambling. Maybe if things get too hectic in a quest though, you can send a Tell to a GM or to a friend in the party to help include you. I dunno, just an idea.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: MJZ on April 17, 2007, 01:31:59 pm
Well, I think this is what level restrictions on quests are for. They help ensure the playing field is even for all participants. I think there's an obvious limit as to how much a couple of characters under level ten can be incorporated if all other party members are twice their level. Battles aside and adventuring rolls aside, the low level characters simply do not have the experience of their higher level counterparts, both in character and (often) out of character as members of Layonara. Which usually leaves them to busily asking annoying question *points to Ariel* ;)

I don't have a problem with high level characters "taking over" quests - it's bound to happen to an extent and I don't see why they shouldn't take charge, with their years of experience and knowledge and killing-expertise and lore and whatnot. And that is why I'm all for level-restricted quests. Of course, we also have some non-restricted quests. So everyone's happy.


(Excuse my mellowness. I am in Sweden, after all.)
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Nehetsrev on April 17, 2007, 01:35:30 pm
Personally, while on occasion I allow the mistaken mindset to kick in and begin to think my character is 'useless' when the 'big-dogs' are unleashed, the fact of the matter is that feeling that way is a choice of it's own right.

I remember the first quest any of my characters was involved in had Treana tagging along to the plane of Chaos to help her friends free themselves of a sort of curse.  Was Treana (then at level 6 or 7 if I recall) out of her league?  Definitely.  Did I allow that to ruin my fun?  Heck no.  I pressed on and still did my best in each fight, fights where literally one or two blows would kill her, and I was rewarded with a total of four deaths which sent me back to Hlint to wait out the end in wonder, not knowing if my friends were successful in their attempts, or suffered a fate worse than mine.

The point is, I chose to have fun RPing my character as the loyal friend she was trying very hard to be, and I had a blast.  I knew Treana was likely going to be toast from the moment I went in.  I knew there wasn't much she could contribute from a game-mechanics perspective.  But, I also knew as a player, I could contribute atmosphere in some fractional way to the story, and help give my fellows a more enjoyable experience as a result.

Don't get bogged down in the 'hey they're way more powerful than I' concepts, just play as though they're average joe's too, until you see their awesome power unleashed, and then play the wonderment your character should be feeling after witnessing such glorious spectacle.  Choose to have fun playing, no matter what happens or who else is involved, and you will have fun.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Skywatcher on April 17, 2007, 06:24:36 pm
I find that for me the best thing to do is to not pay any attention to what level other players are.  I try to just respond to people as if I was just meeting them and interacting with them.  In combat I am glad to have higher level characters around since it usually means more survival.  Even though the higher levels may benefit from higher rolls I think anyone who is paying attention and thinking about what is going on can make very valuable contributions to any quest.  Sometimes its a matter of being forceful and that's not in everyone's personality but for me I have always found a way to be active in any quest I have played in whether I was the lowest level or highest level.  Remember the higher level players also have the challenge of holding back sometimes to let others contribute.  Some of the very experienced players here could probably plow through some quests on their own but they don't because they recognize the value and fun of RP and allowing everyone to get involved.  The GMs also do a good job of including lower level characters when they are active and doing their best to contribute.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: MJZ on April 17, 2007, 06:42:10 pm
But you can't "not pay attention to what level other players are" when they're more than twice your level. You'd have to close your eyes to accomplish that, haha. Sure, you can be as forceful and vocal as you like - but there's a limit how much useful input your level 6 or 7 or 8 character have next to blokes who helped destroy Bloodstone, for example. Don't try to tell me you can always be just as helpful as the decorated war heroes of the world. ;)

While I agree that if you set yourself out to have a good time, it certainly helps, still not everyone has such a light-hearted view on death. I for one become very aggravated when my characters die, even with successful saves against the Soul Mother. Four deaths on one quest would be unimaginable for someone like myself! And imagine the punishment poor Treana felt being torn to shreds again and again and again!

The way I see it, struggling to make yourself appear useful and included isn't as much fun as being useful and included. It was mentioned somewhere that epics have put tons of hours, sweat, blood, frustration, and luck(!) into becoming epics - why shouldn't they be allowed to revel in the fruits of their labour? They should. That's why I'd rather the playing field was level more often than not on those big bad quests. So there's no need to try and fight that man or mouse complex.


Besides - it's much more fun the other way around - one or two higher ups with a bunch of low-lifes, oohing and aahing at their shiny threads and critter-killing prowess. ;)
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Dorganath on April 17, 2007, 08:04:24 pm
Ha!  Well, Clarissa/Skywatcher sure can seem to not pay attention to levels. :)

A couple of months ago, I remember her being very eager and vocal on a quest about getting information out of an epic character who's very well known to me.  Thumbs up on that; you really made me take notice!

So I'd say you can.  That's not to say you won't notice the difference, but the key is that you need to make that fundamental decision as to whether or not you are going to let that affect your RP.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Nehetsrev on April 17, 2007, 09:12:46 pm
Don't get me wrong, I was trying very hard to keep Treana alive.  The fourth death that sent her back to Hlint wasn't even expected, she somehow got caught in the blast from a hellball, or something like that cast by the main baddy, while she was round a corner and a short ways down the hall.  Treana couldn't even see the main baddy, and she thought she'd be safe where she was and would thus survive that final confrontation.  So, I do try to avoid death as best I can (usually, as long as it's in-character for my character to do so in a given situation), but on the same token, I don't let a death ruin my fun.

My personal view is that no one should be playing this sort of game (or any game really) with the attitude of wanting to be the best.  Folks should be playing the game because they enjoy interacting with other folks and improving themselves to the best of their own abilities, but not nescessarilly on any scale that bases itself on the stats of other characters or abilities of other players.  But then I hold the odd view that competiton isn't about who wins or loses, but about having fun playing the game and learning from those who've developed differeing styles and techniques.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: kuchida on April 17, 2007, 09:17:38 pm
I think quests should generally group people of the same range together. This place is like high school in a lot of ways, both good and bad, and "Seniors" and "Freshmen" don't always mix well. I'm sure we've all been to high school (or are still there in some cases) so hopefully you understand what I mean.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Interia_Discordius on April 17, 2007, 09:21:53 pm
It could always help to send Tells and make sure both parties are aware of feelings...It's not always intentional.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: MJZ on April 17, 2007, 09:58:43 pm
Quote from: Nehetsrev
But then I hold the odd view that competiton isn't about who wins or loses, but about having fun playing the game and learning from those who've developed differeing styles and techniques.

As it should be! Nothing would be more dull than a world where everyone wore the same armor because it was best, wielded one of the same few weapons because they were the best, and had the same skill/spell allocation because it was... the best. *cough* WoW *cough*

But I think it's clear that we can cook up (read: remember) many examples from each side, but still *points to section in previous post where made witty rejoinder about world heroes*

And you know, trying to get a lot of information out of an epic seems like the logical thing for a wee one to do - and it seems to be in line with their epic-ness, not ignoring it. Or am I misunderstanding?

In any case, epic level characters ARE going to affect RP - how can they not? Like I said, if you have a decorated war hero in your party, you're not going to be talking to that person as if they were Joe Shmoe the Half-Elf. If you are but a humble Hedgewizard who finds himself tossing missiles next to a mighty Magus, you're going to gawk at him in all his Weavey-wonders like a starved stink beetle gawks at yon napping warrior with his full-plate off. (Okay, I'm an idiot, but you get my point. It's 4am.)

Which is well and good. Levels shouldn't restrict RP, and I don't think they do, beyond the server level sets. (The fact that people who have been on Layo long enough to be high level likely have their own populous set of friends and acquaintances already, aside.) But certain quests.. just don't work so well with many high levels and a couple low levels. *Shrugs* That's what I've experienced.
And now we have successfully variated off topic. :p
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Praylor Falcus on April 18, 2007, 07:01:31 pm
Hmm, All i can say is welcome to layo guys.  View all the contradictions as part of the challenge. Only way to remain sane and make some sense of the What i call "Layo Logic"
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: MJZ on April 18, 2007, 10:07:50 pm
What contradictions? What are you talkin about? :p
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Gunther on April 23, 2007, 08:48:42 pm
I empathize.  I truly do.  I was kicked out of quests as the mandatory level requirement was increased while I was standing there, hence booting several people.  I've been in your shoes.  So have most of the folks on here.

On the other hand, Gunther (20th level halfgiant barb) just got killed yesterday in about 20 seconds flat on a GM quest.  Now I'm not saying that Gunther is the toughest character out there, he's not.  But if he gets scragged that quickly, then level requirements are a necessary thing.  A necessary thing for your protection.  And a necessary thing because some of these quests have world altering consequences.  Frankly, sometimes a lower level character simply doesnt belong.  It'd be more of a hazard to the other characters to try to protect you.  And the higher in level you get, the higher your chance of getting a DT.  To be perfectly blunt, I dont want Gunther to have an increased chance of perming because he's trying to protect someone from something they have no business facing.

I just saw a quest the other day that was restricted to levels 1-9.  Deliver seeds or something like that.  Not to be mean, but thats what a level 1 barb should be doing.  Delivering seeds.  Not trying to go toe to toe with Ozzgulfuzz, the 8th Demonlord of the Abyss, as the party attempts to save the world from encroaching demon hordes.  Should the DM tweak the encounter because a lower level is present in this case?  Maybe change it to the invading horde of Gnarly Toadsmacker, the kobold commando?  Thats no fun for the folks who worked long and hard (and sometimes it feels like work), to get their character to a higher level.

Anyway, I feel for ya.  It is tough.  The quests are fun to go on.  And its no fun to be excluded (especially if you show up, meet the requirements, and are booted anyway).  Sometimes, the quests seem to be set up for certain individuals beforehand (as the above where Gunther got killed.  He was invited by somebody else who was already involved).  In these cases, I recommend that you roleplay and get to know people.  As annoying as it sounds, dont worry about levelling, those who are worried about it probably arent going to be here that long.

And I've been here for almost two years and still havent made it on a plot quest.  Maybe someday.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: jrizz on April 27, 2007, 05:17:14 pm
isnt this thread about fast leveling PCs? :) Dont take your eye off the ball, you may miss the game :D
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Pen N Popper on April 27, 2007, 05:24:22 pm
I'd like to level fast!  Please sign me up for your spam newsletter on how to do this!

Once I reach 20th level I promise I won't complain on the forums ever again about RP vs. XP!

Well, until I succeed at my WLDQ!
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: jrizz on April 27, 2007, 05:31:00 pm
Sorry cant help you it took wren 15 months to make 20th LOL.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: AeonBlues on April 28, 2007, 11:40:47 am
Try playing ECL +0 is a good start as any.

Hi, my name is Aeon and I am a gameholic.

I spend sixty hours a week playing on Layonara.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: darkstorme on April 28, 2007, 04:41:59 pm
*chuckles*  ECL'll get you every time.  Kell's been in-game for 11 months.  He's level.. um.. nine.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: jrizz on April 30, 2007, 04:34:20 pm
um fast leveling is not just a 1 to 20 issue.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Joyrock on May 31, 2007, 06:42:04 pm
Hmm only advice I can give about being I guess you could call being uber at a lower level so your more equal with the higher level chars is play a mage, or cleric. both gain spells that allow you to out last most other classes when the bad stuff hits. be it G-sanc, prem, improved invis.

but there pretty weak to start out but once you get good with them, know your spells and when to use them, you can out last any higher level char.
The question wether you can last, or be useful in this party is not as much in question.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Eight-Bit on June 12, 2007, 07:57:12 am
Level requirements on quests are an unfortunate... requirement. If there is a wide range of levels you have leechers and leaders. Leaders are the ones at the front, doing all of the work, all of the talking, and hold all of the quest to themselves. Leechers hide from arrows and toss the occassional potion.

I'm being dramatic, of course, but I've GMed enough to know that if you're not within a certain level of ability the party and the quest tends to fall apart. It is not fair to a GM to have to pander to individuals anymore. Back in the day, when 8 people made a BIG quest it was possible and fun. These days, at least a few months ago when I actually played and GMed, 8 is a bare-bones quest with a heaping helping of "maybe more than two thirds of them will survive."
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: kilraq on June 17, 2007, 10:47:43 pm
I might be new in the community, thus really have no place to say anything, but I just feel I should.  

Level Req's - Hell yes this should be a valid and needed part of designing your quests.  This saves the GM's a TON of headache.   It makes people work and ensures they do get a challenging battles/puzzles. This in turns will make the party form a bonding gained from working as a unit, a whole.   I completely agree with this activity and think it should be encouraged.   I also think that if you are below level, who says you need a GM with you do go do something at a lower/higher end of leveling?   How hard would it be to organize a player event, posted on the calendar, where you RP a situation where your character want to go explore some part of the land?  Its what I would do.

Fast Leveling - Reading from the standpoints here I can't really give a say.   I can see why some folk would level to fast with little RP development, but I can't see a good reason to other than boredom.  Who says the only way to play is to go and kill monsters?   Why not create and plan to build a temple to your god?   Organize and structure a community for the NPCS by clearing an area of monster and attempting to settle it.   Make a trade route, or start your own actual business?   If we are playing these characters and want to develop them as if they were real people, they needs dreams, aspirations, and more importantly, hobbies.   RP it.

Sorry if this sounds a bit arrogant or presumptuous from a newbie, but that is what a good GM would have us if this was a normal pen and paper adventure.

*Throws his 2 cents on the table*

Laters.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Shadowblade225 on June 20, 2007, 07:57:28 pm
It doesn't sound arrogant at all kilraq ;)

A lvl 30 that hasn't done much in the way of influence will quickly be forgotten over a level 15 who's been around for 2-3 years and has contributed significantly to their character's clique.  The more you branch out into affecting the NPC population (aka 99.99% of the actual humanoid population), the more your character will be remembered.  And how you define "influence" is of course dependent upon character type.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Eight-Bit on July 24, 2007, 01:03:28 pm
Look, there are a few double standards that aren't even intentional here at Layonara. One of them are the quest limits. "Don't level fast, but don't go on quests either!" is pretty much how most people think about the rules. However, from experience, a wide mix in levels makes it hard on the GM to keep people entertained along with mostly alive. It's no fun to watch people run, regroup, then die trying to raise the newbs.

Trust me.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: ZeroVega on July 26, 2007, 06:10:43 pm
The biggest thing I've learned about leveling is that it's never enough. I went through phases where I was content with my level. Phases where I wanted to be a lower level. And phases where I did nothing but run around killing stuff all day because I felt I had to get that level so bad. It's a cycle that everyone goes through (and it NEVER stops... even at level 20+).

Thing is, the most satisfying thing about Layonara for me was always the role playing. Often I'd lose sight of that when the powergamer in me would pop out. It's not wrong to want to level (I always want to), I just have to remind myself that no amount of levels will make Layonara fun for me. It's the people you hang with and how you hang with em.

I've been on worlds that seem to have nearly as many areas as Layonara. I can level two or three times faster and the items are more powerful. What are they lacking then? They're lacking Rhynns, and Frins, Peragos, and Tolinars, Rhizomes and Nawens. Yeah, levels are good (heck, they're freaking awesome), but you can't role play with your levels.

My advice: seek people out, play your character, work on developing his/her personality, his/her story, his/her emotional depth and knowledge of the world and the plot. Go on quests, forge friendships, adventure and explore. The less you concentrate on levels, no matter how much time you play every week, the faster they'll seem to come.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Xirion on July 27, 2007, 05:47:27 am
Quote from: ZeroVega
The biggest thing I've learned about leveling is that it's never enough. I went through phases where I was content with my level. Phases where I wanted to be a lower level. And phases where I did nothing but run around killing stuff all day because I felt I had to get that level so bad. It's a cycle that everyone goes through (and it NEVER stops... even at level 20+).

Thing is, the most satisfying thing about Layonara for me was always the role playing. Often I'd lose sight of that when the powergamer in me would pop out. It's not wrong to want to level (I always want to), I just have to remind myself that no amount of levels will make Layonara fun for me. It's the people you hang with and how you hang with em.

I've been on worlds that seem to have nearly as many areas as Layonara. I can level two or three times faster and the items are more powerful. What are they lacking then? They're lacking Rhynns, and Frins, Peragos, and Tolinars, Rhizomes and Nawens. Yeah, levels are good (heck, they're freaking awesome), but you can't role play with your levels.

My advice: seek people out, play your character, work on developing his/her personality, his/her story, his/her emotional depth and knowledge of the world and the plot. Go on quests, forge friendships, adventure and explore. The less you concentrate on levels, no matter how much time you play every week, the faster they'll seem to come.


I have to agree fully to your post. When I started here at Layo  (not long ago hehe)I was trying to get my char leveld and the big steps between the levels seemed to me abit long sometimes. The more one focuses on RP the more fun you have and your char develops really. Not that he got xp but he gains more depth, wich is worth lot more than the lvl I think.
I am now at lvl 9 and since my last level up (must be at least a week ago) I have earned about 10k experience, so the there are over 310k missing, to point it out clearly, I nearly earned no xp, but I dont care!
I have had some nice talks to some friends, helped a new char in the sewers and no big adventures with high level monsters. The fun level was high anyway. Or maybe even -because- I had much RP and less fights.
If you seek Hack&Slay, play diablo, but if you want RP with realy different chars, storys andstuff like that this is the right place. Thatdoes ofcourse not mean that one can not have fun with the fights here. It is fun to discover new places and win hard fights with some friends! Best when between the fights or even during them there is RP aswell, that journeys are the best.
The ones where there is more to say than just "lets go" "lets rest"... where are arguments and so on. So the post is now longer than I thought he would be when I started and I guess all got what I wanted to point out :D
Thanks for reading
Xirion
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Nagash von Ritter on December 02, 2007, 08:59:53 am
I think people should look at this in two ways though, I love going in groups with many of certain parties and groups that I feel fit my character and his philosophies, charging valiently into combat to save a friend and so forth. I had a great and constructive RP session with the goblin tribe who I fit in really well with, but if there is no one I can find to party with what else can I do but either craft or kill nonstop? Many of the times I'm on the Americans are in bed so it'd me and 1-2 others....

However, I cannot help but feel that many of the higher level characters want to protect their turf.

Me and a friend recently joined Layonara, and we don't want to powerlevel, but just get high enough so we can explore the world and its rich histories more and also so we can actually join groups. Majority of the time any group I join I either just sit there and watch, or die; neither of which is fun. Many of the players here are already quite high levels so it doesn't apply to them the whole 'going slow' philosophy. But for the record I am against powerlevelling, but also don't forget the new and little people!

And anyone who has me met and my ingame brother will know that we both RP our characters heavily along alignments, beliefs and so forth, even to the point of calling one another brother. It is also worth noting that some people have no life, as of Monday I will be playing some 10-12 hours a day, so under those circumstances wouldn't I level a lot faster anyways, even with full RP and everything else. I agree with characters that just kill and kill some more, but what about people who do RP who write journals (I've made 6 posts so far in 1 week) but just play a lot?
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Gulnyr on December 02, 2007, 10:05:47 am
Quote from: Nagash von Ritter
However, I cannot help but feel that many of the higher level characters want to protect their turf.

Can you explain what this means, please?
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Nagash von Ritter on December 02, 2007, 10:12:33 am
Well right now the powerful characters are all important, most of the quests are run for them due to long term relationships and friendships with DM's. They are status quo in every meaning of the word, they want to maintain what they have, meanwhile others want to challenge the satus quo and break into the upper eschelon of the society here. To many the only way they can see it being possible to take part in many quests is with levels and power. Someone with only a level one character I doubt will be allowed to play in any combat orientated DM quests which I imagine are all run for high level characters. The last quest I participated in consisted of DM friends and DM having a good old fashioned yarn whilst the new guys kind of sat there going, well then, well. We were too unimportant to be noticed.

New characters ascending to their status and importance means they have a challenge for attention and importance.

In a server like Layonara, people don't want to just power level for the sake of being all powerful. I have had many tell conversations already with people who feel the same way and are new to the server. They feel they can only take part if they are more powerful and a higher level. Hell, you can't even get the resources to craft or the money to buy them until you're a higher level.

I await the inevitable firestorm that will come as a result of this post.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Weeblie on December 02, 2007, 11:25:39 am
The irony is that people with high level characters tend to make the argument that there lacks quests with combat fitting them...

The majority of the quests have two parts. A combat one and a non-combat one. Naturally, if the character is too low level compared to the average of the party, they will feel left out on the combat part. But that in no way prevents them from taking an active participation in the nom-combat part, which by itself generally occupies more than 90% of the quest time anyway.

Having had a character that has been quite known to have stayed at low and mid-levels for a very long time, and also having very weak power for her level until very recently (read: cleric lacking spells), I know from personal experience that it's not the DM or the high levels that tend to leave oneself "out of the loop", but rather oneself not trying to get into it.

It doesn't mean one should walk up to a long running quest and expect to become a "leader" by making as much noise as possible. Instead, something simple as talking with the other quest participants... asking around a little about what one doesn't understand, what one wishes to get clarified... and one will suddenly feel that one belongs to the quest as much as anyone else.

This is also one of the core reasons I would suggest new players to start out with a normal farmer boy... village girl... an aspiring mage who wishes to see more of the world... the homeless girl who have just realised a god or goddess have taken pity in her and granted her some gifts... or any other "simple" character who should preferable have a personality that doesn't make others angry. Build up a few bonds of friendship and it's good to go.

The character levels do mean something... But as some people has proven again and again, what means much more is one's ability to make others have fun around oneself. That is why it sometimes appears new players who have more active roles on quests than high level characters. And that is also why I'm fairly certain anyone who already feels like they are comfortable on quests could start a completely new character on a completely new account and still feel the same!

Layonara wishes people not to power level because one would rather have one well developed and superbly RP-ed level 10 character rather than ten shallow "hit all that moves" level 20 characters...
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Dorganath on December 02, 2007, 11:52:52 am
Quote from: Nagash von Ritter
Well right now the powerful characters are all important, most of the quests are run for them due to long term relationships and friendships with DM's. They are status quo in every meaning of the word, they want to maintain what they have, meanwhile others want to challenge the satus quo and break into the upper eschelon of the society here. To many the only way they can see it being possible to take part in many quests is with levels and power. Someone with only a level one character I doubt will be allowed to play in any combat orientated DM quests which I imagine are all run for high level characters. The last quest I participated in consisted of DM friends and DM having a good old fashioned yarn whilst the new guys kind of sat there going, well then, well. We were too unimportant to be noticed.

No firestorm (at least not from me), but some inaccuracies I'll clear up.

First, quests are not run for high-level characters because of their friendship and/or relationships with GMs. This is the most important misconception to clear up. In addition, some quests are run with narrow level requirements, others are run with broad or open level requirements.  In the latter group of quests, there may in fact be extreme danager for lower-level characters but then those quests don't tend to be combat-heavy.  In fact, those quests tend to be more RP-oriented, where the contribution one makes is not always about levels but simply taking an active roll and attempting something.

I'm not sure which quest you're talking about, but if it was the one from last Wednesday, you need to understand a few things about it.  First, that quest has been going on for a long time, and is in fact, a continuation from a quest that started about a year ago...which I think ties into another quest that was run before that.  So yes, it's very difficult to join quests as those mid-stream, but it has to do with all that came before it, and not whatever friendships that the GM and players may have.  This is a danger with any long-running quest, and I know you just got here and probably don't know how long the quest has been running, but that more than anything is why characters who just joined this past week would be lost or feel marginalized.  

You only have my  word for it, but over the course of the last year, there have been plenty of contributions by all characters involved, regardless of level and regardless of how well a player may know the GM. For disclosure, yes, the GM is my friend, but that's not why I'm on the quest, nor why she's running it. The GM in fact has been all-too-happy to let my character and other high-level characters fail at their attempts because we did the wrong thing, failed our die rolls, etc. You don't always see this, because it happens in hidden die rolls and in Tells, but it does happen. For my own part, I try to include the party in that through emotes and comments, though sometimes these things are ignored or simply missed.  It happens. A lot goes on sometimes.  It's no one's fault really.

I cannot speak for all GMs, and really I can't speak for Rowana, but based on observation, she and many other GMs want to see players at least make an attempt to contribute, even if it doesn't work.  It's intimidating, I know. But levels are not the all-important thing on an RP-heavy quest.  For combat-oriented quests, yes....for RP, not at all.  However, in that vein, a lot of the high-level characters are more comfortable in stepping up and taking a chance, not because of their levels but because of the level of confidence of the player.  I have seen high-level "wallflowers" and low-level superstars.  On RP-oriented quests, there's always an opportunity.

Having said all this, some GMs do pretty much assume that the party will need some high-level assistance, whether on the quest itself or between sessions in some way. There's a very simple reason for this.  Many high-level characters, especially those who have achieved World Leader status, have worked hard for and earned status and abilities that others simply do not have.  This is more common on RP-oriented quests, unless the combat-heavy quests have open level requirements.

Anyway, point is that there's always contributions one can make as a low-level character.  That's something I learned a very long time ago on a quest long before I became a GM or had any GM friends, and my low-level character came up with a solution that was completely lost on the high-level characters in the group.  GMs will generally reward the creativity, but the attempt has to be made.

My best advice is to work with the group and the GM and try to contribute in whatever way befits your character's personality and abilities.

Levels and the power they bring don't equate to being favored on quests.  Simply racing up to high-levels won't guarantee that someone can become a prime contributor to quests.  I can think of a few really good examples in the player base right now, actually.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Gulnyr on December 02, 2007, 12:02:01 pm
Quote from: Nagash von Ritter
Well right now the powerful characters are all important, most of the quests are run for them due to long term relationships and friendships with DM's.

Just to establish a baseline, what level is required to be a "powerful character?"

The majority of quest series start out open to all, though often limited by level range.  Somewhere around level 8 or 10 is the typical minimum on level-limited quests, but that's not because of any favoritism between the DMs and players.  It has to do with aiming for a large enough segment of the characters and leveling speed.  The first five or ten levels fly by, usually (there are scripted quests in-game to help make that happen), and a character who could fit into a level 1-10 quest when it is posted on the calendar will often be beyond that range once the quest is actually run.  Most characters are between levels 10 and 20, so that's where the level range on quests is often set.

There are a growing number of epic, post-level 20 characters, but there are very, very rarely epic-only, super-high-level quests.  With nothing run specifically for these characters, whose players have the truly long term relationships between themselves and the DMs, it is difficult to believe that quests are being run specifically for certain people because of friendships and favoritism.

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They are status quo in every meaning of the word, they want to maintain what they have, meanwhile others want to challenge the satus quo and break into the upper eschelon of the society here.

I'm not sure "what they have," but I can speak for myself when I say what my character has she earned, whether that is goodies or rank or reputation.  I think it's only reasonable that other characters should have to earn their way, too.  My character didn't start out as anything special, but became special to some people through roleplaying.  It takes time and effort, but it's fun and rewarding to build something from nearly nothing.  If that's what you mean by status quo, then yes, there's going to be a lot of resistance to changing how difficult it is for a character to become important to the world.

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To many the only way they can see it being possible to take part in many quests is with levels and power.

I think that's a common concern for new players.  I guarantee, if you have the time to invest in playing, that your character will quickly hit the mid levels and there will be quests to attend that are perfect for that level.

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Someone with only a level one character I doubt will be allowed to play in any combat orientated DM quests which I imagine are all run for high level characters.

Actually, I think most combat-oriented quests are aimed at the mid levels.  That doesn't mean high-level quests don't have their share of combat, just that combat isn't really the point of the quest, usually.  

Besides that, though, if you really want your level 1 character to attend some bashy quest, and the lower level limit posted is less than 10, send the DM a PM and ask if it's okay to join.  The lower limit may only be a recommendation, not a hard rule.  Just understand that a character on a quest is expected to participate and not just stand there looking dumb, and level 1 characters don't live long when things get violent.  If combat is the point of the quest, you're going to spend a lot of time dead, which may be the reason a DM would ask you not to bring the level 1 character; it's hard to justify letting a dead guy take up a slot on the quest or giving him XP afterward, y'know?

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The last quest I participated in consisted of DM friends and DM having a good old fashioned yarn whilst the new guys kind of sat there going, well then, well. We were too unimportant to be noticed.

Was this a one-shot or the first quest of a series, or was it a series that had been going for some time?  If you just popped into a continuing series, you can't really expect to be top dog immediately, or even especially important.  My character is level 30, and I'm involved in a series right now that has some background I'm not familiar with, so there are characters with far fewer levels who have a much bigger part in the series, and I'm still trying to untangle what's what.  Even high-level characters are the "new guys" sometimes.

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New characters ascending to their status and importance means they have a challenge for attention and importance.

Everyone wants their character to be important, to fill a role, to belong, to be useful.  Everyone has to vie for attention.  A new character might have to do a little more, but that's to be expected.  People have to know who you are and what you can do before they will call on your assistance.

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Hell, you can't even get the resources to craft or the money to buy them until you're a higher level.

Low-level resources are obtainable by a low-level party.  It can be difficult for a solo character to gather certain resources regardless of level, but the server isn't set up for soloing (though it isn't impossible).  Gather a party and you can gather resources.  Go out adventuring with that party and you will build up the funds to buy the supplies you can't gather.  It just takes time and effort.

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I await the inevitable firestorm that will come as a result of this post.

Nah.  I think you're just misunderstanding what you're seeing.  While the DMs (who are also players) do often have friendships with others, they aren't doing things to play favorites.  Also, unlike a PnP game, not every character is going to get time in the spotlight on every quest or in every encounter.  That's just the nature of the medium.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Nagash von Ritter on December 02, 2007, 12:14:44 pm
I don't say how it is, I say how it feels for me and every other newbie out there. I won't argue with anyone I just wanted to share something with people that I thought they *may* consider before they judge people. You will find that the majority of the evil powerlevelers are often new to the server, so it shouldn't be too hard to wonder why and I daresay that many of the older players had their time at doing it, I'm guessing it's part of the reason why they know their way around so well.

I mention the quest thing not as an attack, but at the difficulty in a new player becoming a part of the server and the world here, it's very hard. Trying to fit into such long term quests is almost impossible and many of the quests feel similar to the new player.

There are already established friendships between the real people with characters so they easily and quickly group up, talk, explore craft etc etc. But the newbie is left with no such options, with limited interaction (relatively speaking) and with no crafting options, the new player is left with little option but to just run around wacking goblins and doing any quests they can find in towns and such forth.

So we end up with the inevitable result that the player becomes a very high level very fast, compared to others. Especially if that player plays a lot.

It is all fair and well to say "if level x by time z then power leveller".

But in reality, there is a lot more to think of, what options does the player in this case have? How many hours do they play each day? Do they kill a lot of monsters by accident (exploring) or through collecting, so it really depends on what the person is doing.

Also, I consider a level that is able to participate with the majority of players and groups somewhere around the 11-14 range, it differs based on classes, a wizard will need to be higher than a fighter and a cleric can participate at the lowest.

I'm sure that voicing my opinion means any classes I apply for in the future, any epic levels and any prestige classes will be rejected. But if I didn't say anything then people would never know how a whole group feels.

It's all about perception, none of the veterans, the admin team or gamemasters will even slightly agree with me, but I would imagine any honest newbies would agree if they wern't afraid of the banhammer.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Nagash von Ritter on December 02, 2007, 12:16:22 pm
I mention the quest thing not as an attack, but at the difficulty in a new player becoming a part of the server and the world here, it's very hard. Trying to fit into such long term quests is almost impossible and many of the quests feel similar to the new player.

There are already established friendships between the real people with characters so they easily and quickly group up, talk, explore craft etc etc. But the newbie is left with no such options, with limited interaction (relatively speaking) and with no crafting options, the new player is left with little option but to just run around wacking goblins and doing any quests they can find in towns and such forth.

So we end up with the inevitable result that the player becomes a very high level very fast, compared to others. Especially if that player plays a lot.

It is all fair and well to say "if level x by time z then power leveller".

But in reality, there is a lot more to think of, what options does the player in this case have? How many hours do they play each day? Do they kill a lot of monsters by accident (exploring) or through collecting, so it really depends on what the person is doing.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: darkstorme on December 02, 2007, 01:06:37 pm
*grins*  Speaking for myself, I have never run a quest that was exclusively for any character over level 15.  I've only been a DM for a little while, but my (and osxmallard's) Thursday quest series has always had a level bracket that falls somewhere around 7-15.  Lower levels CAN come - but at their own risk, as it will be geared towards the higher level bracket.  These people are not high-levels; as the Starting Out section of LORE says, achieving seventh-level in a week, maybe two, is quite doable.  And then my quests are more or less open.

Speaking as a player, none of my characters are over level 10 (though I would very much like them to be! ;) ).  I DON'T go out and kill things - I RP, I craft, I develop them as a character.. and occasionally, I get one of those influxes of XP that a quest delivers. *smiles*  Given that Narketh was only approved eight days ago, and is already further along than either of my secondary characters, I can only say this: soyez patiente!

A year and three-quarters ago, I was a newbie too.  Freshly minted Tiefling, killed by everything that moved.  (Seriously, the first time your character falls to a skunk, you learn to respect the animals of Layonara.  And wait, eagerly, for the chance to repay them in full. ;) )  And bit by bit, by hanging around and playing my character, he made friends, and allies, and found people to go out and fight with.  (Alongside, that is.)  And frankly, while I've never been to most of the quote-really cool places-unquote, I'm very happy with how he turned out. :D

Just give it time.

Edit:

Quote

I'm sure that voicing my opinion means any classes I apply for in the future, any epic levels and any prestige classes will be rejected. But if I didn't say anything then people would never know how a whole group feels.

It's all about perception, none of the veterans, the admin team or gamemasters will even slightly agree with me, but I would imagine any honest newbies would agree if they wern't afraid of the banhammer.


While the rest of your post seems like quite reasonable frustration for someone new to Layonara, this seems designed to provoke a response.  So here it is.  Voicing an opinion that is reasonable and not designed to insult or antagonize will not, under any circumstances, harm chances for prestige classes or epic levels.  This is not how we work.

Nor do we threaten honest (and again, politely worded) frustration or comments with the "banhammer".  Layonara is not a community of fear, or oppression, and it doesn't have some sort of stratified caste system.  Everyone here started out just where you did... some of them only a month before you.  I sincerely doubt that the lions share of the newbies would  agree with your perceived slights.

As I said, you're experiencing frustration that might only be natural to someone who's used to a faster leveling world.  Give it time.  I've tried a number of worlds... and I've stuck with Layo.  It's worth it.

Edit 2: Huh.  So it seems that Dorg said what I said, only far more eloquently.  I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.  :)  Regardless, my point stands.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Dorganath on December 02, 2007, 01:12:27 pm
Quote from: Nagash von Ritter
I'm sure that voicing my opinion means any classes I apply for in the future, any epic levels and any prestige classes will be rejected. But if I didn't say anything then people would never know how a whole group feels.

It's all about perception, none of the veterans, the admin team or gamemasters will even slightly agree with me, but I would imagine any honest newbies would agree if they wern't afraid of the banhammer.

I'm sorry, but this is simply not true.

We're not in the business of holding grudges against people who ask questions and bring up concerns, especially not those who do so constructively, as you have done so far.  I don't know what you've heard, what whispers have reached your ears, but this simply is not how we operate.

You're right about one thing...it's about perception.  The problem is, perceptions are very hard to change, even if the GM Team does everything right. You have no reason to believe me, but I've seen this many times and in most cases, it's based on misunderstandings and bad assumptions.

But of course, I don't expect you to take my word for it.  I do request though that you perhaps alter your assumptions even slightly to let yourself keep an open mind about some things.

I don't know where this is coming from...perhaps another game world you were at before Layonara...I can't say.  Of all the people we've banned over the years, and there have been relatively few among the thousands of players that have come through in that time, none of them have been because someone voiced their opinions.  

We ban people for two main reasons: 1) they blatantly violate server rules or 2) they are abusive, abrasive or generally disruptive and harmful to our community.  Simply voicing opinions does not qualify for either of those.

Further, I want to point out to you that while any GM can temporarily ban someone, only a relative few can make that banning permanent, and if the banning is found to be inappropriate or unsupported by the GM who takes the action, then the GM will get disciplined.

We do not run around wielding "ban hammers" and seeking out dissension within the ranks. Frankly, I find the idea rather insulting.

As for whatever future submissions you might make...the applications of such will be decided based solely on the merits of your application and your RP.  Epic levels are no longer restricted, so you don't need permission for those either.

And despite what you may think, I do understand what you are saying.  I was new here once too.  It took me a while, certainly more than a week or two, in order to get comfortable and familiar with the world, with questing and so forth.  It's hard starting out, but it just takes time.  Play your character and just worry about what he'd do.  I think you'll find that a lot more enjoyable.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Gulnyr on December 02, 2007, 01:40:03 pm
I would like to add that just how fast "fast leveling" is depends on the player's schedule and the level of the character.

If a player is known to be logged in with a certain character a lot, then the team knows that character may have a faster rate of leveling.  

If a character is less than level 10, it's understood that the character could level pretty fast.  If you're actively adventuring, it can sometimes be hard not to level fast in the low levels.  Warnings about leveling too fast are generally aimed at players of higher-level characters who are zipping through levels by doing silly things like setting up crazy bash cycles, gaining levels at ridiculous rates without having the character grow and develop any depth along the way.  That's bad because all that's happened is that someone built a two-dimensional pile of numbers instead of a living, breathing, real character.

So if you have a lot of time to play, awesome.  No one is going to ban you for leveling.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: stolen on December 02, 2007, 01:40:20 pm
I don't usually get involved in posts like this but I thought I would pipe in, seeing as how I have been here for a while, but dont have any super high level characters.

First of all, and someone correct me if I am wrong please, but when they talk about fast leveling, I don't think anyone is talking about going from, say, first to eighth to tenth, in a relatively short period of time. If you get in with a good same level group, which is paramount on an RP server, you almost cant help get there with some speed. And eighth level is about where lots of options open up to a character, but you still can't necessarily go solo or with just one other PC. But if you go from eight to twenty fast, then you couldn't, even if you spend many hours a day on, be doing a whole lot of RP, and in my experience, RP is what the powers that be want t see. I have occasionally had some, much lower level than the rest of the  group characters, out on a run, and have been rewarded with extra XP because of RP. Running with much higher level characters is generally discouraged and I can't do it all the time though, because that would be powerleveling, but the occasional run with good RP is still rewarded if a GM happens to be watching. I have also been chastised by a GM for just being with a high level group and running around just killing everything with hardly a word spoken amoungst the group. *shrugs* It happens to everyone I think. You just don't have the RP bug that day and who wants to turn down an invitation to go out with a group.

I have never gotten the feeling that any high level character is trying to "protect their turf". My characters have always gotten nothing but help from most high level characters. Have I had bad experiences with some? Of course, but that creates a dynamic in game that adds to the flavor to the world.
Everyone is not going to get along with everyone and I have had some high level characters try to push my characters around. Was it because they were higher level than me. I never got that impression. I always felt that it was because that was the personality of the character. Most high level characters have always treated my, even brand new PC's, with respect if my characters treated them the same way. But clashes between PC's will happen. Its up to you to determine how other characters will view yours through your actions.

I have been on a fair number of quests. Sometimes I felt completely useless and sometimes my much lower level character took a leadership role. Combat in open level quests pretty much has to be geared toward the higher level characters or elce the group would just wade through everything in their path. It was always the RP oriented, open level quests I, as a lower level, was most involved in. You just have to think of things in ways that other people arent and get involved. In ongoing quests, of course the high levels are going to have a more prominant role. Most high level characters have been around for a long time and they are the history of layo. Their actions in the path have brought the world to where it is today. If you can get your low level in on the beginning of an ongoing quest you can be just as important as anyone. Lately with the new GM's there have been plenty of quests. Find one that suits your character.

I think you can see why I don't get involved in these posts because i tend to ramble on, but I in my time here have not seen much of what Nagash is talking about here. I don't judge people on their level, but on their actions.
Power through fast leveling isn't needed to be someone important on Layo, good RP is. IMHO.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Dorganath on December 02, 2007, 01:54:05 pm
Quote from: stolen
First of all, and someone correct me if I am wrong please, but when they talk about fast leveling, I don't think anyone is talking about going from, say, first to eighth to tenth, in a relatively short period of time.

Correct.  This whole issue refers solely to the "rush to 20th" that some people seem to feel the need to do, at the expense of developing their characters.  Besides being against the spirit of the server, a lot of people I've talked to who have leveled quickly have said, "It's fun, but it feels hollow."  In other words, there's all this increase in power without any real character development to support or justify it.  As a result, the character feels like "less" in a lot of ways.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Falonthas on December 02, 2007, 02:17:28 pm
in regards to the quest we were on where narketh felt left  out somewhat
my old character that has since permed was a part of this quest series and if he had changed one of his actions the villian might not even be the one we happened to run into, but of course they convinced the dragon not to eat them only scare the bejeezus out of them

since i couldnt bring drogo since he is in fact dead i brought my other char
a backup choice since my main druid is in jail

but still shows you dont have to be in a certain  rush to get anywhere

i have two drow characters one you have met
hes cynical, out for himself and gives paladins extreme indigestion
my other is very quiet , stays to himself and im sure if i had brought him about would have been much better recieved in the overall picture

the gms give everyone opportunities if you show up and are willing to make an effort
you will level
some level fast
some level slow
 but as long as you have a character that is more then his /her level and stats
it doesnt matter in the long run

your mage may become the archmage to beat all archmages of the past
or his steps may cause him to evolve into a very different image of the way you envisioned him at creation

bottom line i think dorg has said it a few times in the past
he made his epic char as a test to check things out and now most know who he is and not because he is played by dorg either
its because connor is connor and how he is is because of how he has evolved as a whole
not simply by level
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Nagash von Ritter on December 02, 2007, 03:12:15 pm
What I don't like is the fact that if I do happen to play a lot and level fast I feel I'm at risk of retribution.

I've been on the server more than once where I'm all alone, I could roleplay a psychotic person who talks to himself but that would get old fast. There isn't much to do except run around killing things. But then someone might get angry and yell power level because I'm doing so. I love the world, its history and the server but often I'm waiting for people to be around, so I just run around either looking for componants to make some items I want, or killing things so that I'm able to collect said items in currently inacessible areas. In worlds like Layonara, what always draws me to the world is the size of it, the variety of cultures and towns, the ability to go to new types of terrain, see new enemies, resources etc etc etc. Constantly exploring and moving will also end up with a lot of xp due to random monsters, especially in the wilderness.

Maybe I was wrong in my perception of the area, but at least to begin with one is confronted with many rules, which also makes one believe in the possibility of many punishments.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: darkstorme on December 02, 2007, 03:24:35 pm
*chuckles*  If you're running around solo, you're unlikely to be admonished for power leveling.  Likewise, as has been established, there is no "retribution", save if you've already ignored several warnings.  If the GM team believes that you're doing something against the server rules or spirit of the server, we'll talk to you first.  We're not sitting on high waiting to hurl a thunderbolt - we're here to help the community.

The rules are there to preserve the spirit of the server and the integrity of the community... and to assume that punishment results from a first violation (for the straightforward rules anyway) means that you've clearly gained the wrong impression.  The GM team, on the whole, doesn't like having to punish players, because a) it's not fun, and b) it takes our time away from doing things to enhance the world.  So we don't unless it's absolutely necessary.

As has been extensively covered in the resurgence in this thread, making your way to level 10-11 (a trick that took me a year and a half) is not considered power-levelling.  If you manage it while soloing, more power to you.  It's only when the levels start to blur as they go by that we might consider stepping in.

When this thread was originally started, it was meant as a gentle reminder to the community of the purpose of the server.  Not as a dictum from on high.  Try to keep in mind that Layonara is not a "punish first, and punish hard" community.  You'll get plenty of warning, if you're doing anything that might be considered wrong, before any sort of punishment is issued.

As I said earlier - just give Layo time, and you'll level before you know it.  (Or a year and a half later.  Whatever suits you.)
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: merlin34baseball on December 02, 2007, 03:40:53 pm
My two bits...

From what I know the rules are in place as they are because of a very few individuals that pushed the envelope over and over despite warnings, and therefor the rules had to be written down as they are so that no one could claim ignorance of the rules if they happened to be violating them all the time.

A case of a couple bad apples...

The GM team here in my opinion isn't a bunch of babysitters... you can do as you like until it begins to have a detrimental effect on the world, or start doing things that are not in the "spirit" of the server.

I wouldn't read the rules and think oh no! their out to get me! If you happpen to play alot more than others and level faster so be it (trust me when I say that they can tell if you play 80 hours a week or if you play 10 hours a week and level at the same rate, there is a difference...)

If you have 80 or 100 hours a week to play level away I say! But also in those hours you will be meeting many other characters and seeing events that will develop your character.

Again the main thing is the rules are all written the way they are because of people in the past claiming ignorance to them, having them all written out makes everyone on the same wavelength. And then no one can claim they didn't know they couldn't slaughter the guards in Hempstead, or fireball the crafthall!
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: scifibarbie on December 02, 2007, 03:48:04 pm
We cant fireball in the crafthall? Are you sure abou that?

That makes em sad..:(

I mean...what if the smelting furnace goes out and you need to relight it? Or your really really hungry and theres an ox..all alone adn you have just put the final touches on your ready made super special ultra tasty bar-b-que sauce. I personally think an exemption shoudl be allowed in that case. :p O.o

And also..theres no sense starving cause Delia isnt gonna go run to the nearest inn to fetch a snack for you. When your doing some really important crafting! She doenst get the you fly i buy rule..sheesh. :\\

Cheers! :D
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Stephen_Zuckerman on December 02, 2007, 04:00:52 pm
Please keep this thread on topic. *Tips his hat.*

There've been some excellent points posted, notably by D&D (Darkstorme and Dorganath). (Though I'm by no means saying the others aren't just as grand - I just liked the D&D comment.)

Anything I would have to say would be rather redundant.

*Shakes his pom-poms and takes another sip of lemonade.*
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Nagash von Ritter on December 02, 2007, 04:42:54 pm
Quote from: darkstorme
*chuckles*  If you're running around solo, you're unlikely to be admonished for power leveling.  Likewise, as has been established, there is no "retribution", save if you've already ignored several warnings.  If the GM team believes that you're doing something against the server rules or spirit of the server, we'll talk to you first.  We're not sitting on high waiting to hurl a thunderbolt - we're here to help the community.

The rules are there to preserve the spirit of the server and the integrity of the community... and to assume that punishment results from a first violation (for the straightforward rules anyway) means that you've clearly gained the wrong impression.  The GM team, on the whole, doesn't like having to punish players, because a) it's not fun, and b) it takes our time away from doing things to enhance the world.  So we don't unless it's absolutely necessary.

As has been extensively covered in the resurgence in this thread, making your way to level 10-11 (a trick that took me a year and a half) is not considered power-levelling.  If you manage it while soloing, more power to you.  It's only when the levels start to blur as they go by that we might consider stepping in.

When this thread was originally started, it was meant as a gentle reminder to the community of the purpose of the server.  Not as a dictum from on high.  Try to keep in mind that Layonara is not a "punish first, and punish hard" community.  You'll get plenty of warning, if you're doing anything that might be considered wrong, before any sort of punishment is issued.

As I said earlier - just give Layo time, and you'll level before you know it.  (Or a year and a half later.  Whatever suits you.)


lol is there any other way than solo-ing? Not that I turn down a party when invited, just I happen to be online when most people arn't.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Halfwit Genious on December 02, 2007, 08:47:56 pm
Quote from: darkstorme

If you manage it while soloing, more power to you.  


This is kinda off topic but I am trying to get the real answer on this. I have been talked too once and was given quite the reprimand about how bad soloing was and how it wasn't in the spirit of the community and all that. Since then I have never repeated what was made to look like an offence. This comment though makes it sound like solong is completely ok. I just want to know one way or the other. And if it's wrong should we be encouraging it like this?

This is by no means a rant or angry post I just want to know the truth.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: darkstorme on December 02, 2007, 09:03:14 pm
Well, soloing is not in the spirit of the community.. but it also harms no one but the person doing said soloing.

It's discouraged because most/all the spawns are weighted against soloing.  So the survival rate of the solo adventurer shows a precipitous decline past the first few quests.  Those things that can be safely soloed often don't give much by way of reward for the soloing adventurer... so either way, it's sort of a mechanical discouragement.

If you want to solo, I can't see anything wrong with it... but it kind of defeats the purpose of playing in a multiplayer RPG.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Leanthar on December 02, 2007, 09:03:48 pm
There is nothing wrong with solo'ing, nothing at all. So long as when you come across players (or have reason to do so) you stay IC and RP...not just do circles and hack and slash the entire time.
 
 Many times (not all mind you) solo'ing does tend to cause a player to forget about RP (even when meeting up with players) and just hack and slash and loop creatures/areas/cnr. Solo'ing itself is okay (and it should always be) but looping or just plain ole hack and slash the entire time (ignoring RP opportunities or not staying IC) is where things go south in a real hurry.
 
 Many players can do it just fine, a fair few can not. And some times (again not nearly all mind you) this leads to abusing AI (as an example).
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Eight-Bit on December 03, 2007, 12:21:03 am
It is easily possible to get level 7 with a good three to four hour commitment if you do it properly. I've been on and around Layonara for a while and have started, and promptly destroyed many a low level character of my own. It's hardly difficult and if you are having trouble getting your levels, either on your own, or with a group. Feel free to give me a PM Nagash. I am happy to help, I like talking about the mechanics of this place, and I'm feeling like a nice guy. :)

Leveling past seven takes effort. Leveling past 12 takes commitment. Leveling past that takes dedication. Think about that before you send me PMs, however. I'm a lazy typist.

EDIT:

Quote from: darkstorme
Well, soloing is not in the spirit of the community.. but it also harms no one but the person doing said soloing.

It's discouraged because most/all the spawns are weighted against soloing.  So the survival rate of the solo adventurer shows a precipitous decline past the first few quests.  Those things that can be safely soloed often don't give much by way of reward for the soloing adventurer... so either way, it's sort of a mechanical discouragement.

If you want to solo, I can't see anything wrong with it... but it kind of defeats the purpose of playing in a multiplayer RPG.


I have to disagree, my friend. Please do not take this as any thing against you, however with Leanthar giving you a thanks and the fact that you are an established member of the community I want to present the other side of the argument so that both sides can be seen, and support what Leanthar has said  in the above post.

Soloing is not in any way harmful to the server. There are times when people complicate things, get in the way, slow you down, or otherwise add another level to the game you are not interested in. I solo when I want, or have to, play alone. I group up when I can or want to. It is as simple as that and I think it is irresponsible to place a stigma upon it.  

Soloing is difficult and so rewarding in many respects. You are given proof of your character's abilities. Being able to "benchmark" yourself, so to speak, will make the game much more interesting. Being able to understand the relative difference between four to eight moderate monsters and one or two difficult monsters can be confusing, and I won't discuss how I do that here (But let's say that you know you can survive four to six regular Ogres. In a group, you might be able to survive two to three Berserkers or one to two Mountain Giants). Being able to solo is an excellent confidence boost and lets one know what they are able to handle so they do not bite off more than they can chew in a group. The group environment can be misleading as to the individual power of your character, and as we all know (or should, at least), a group on Layonara isn't as strong as it's weakest link - it is as strong as the most powerful, in many respects.

Once again, please do not take any disrespect from this. I merely wanted to place my opinion on the matter.

Oh, and looping, camping, harvesting, mindless luring (which even groups do...), and running the Holy Mistone Marathon is frowned upon and I do not suggest doing it. THAT kind of soloing does damage the server.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Xirion on December 03, 2007, 02:40:01 pm
Where was the part where you disagreed? *girns*

...no seriously I think there is nothing wrong with what you said, it is not the type of soloing you described that is frowned at nor is it the kind Nagash mentioned. If there is noone at the server there is nothing you can do but soloing, quite logical. And I doubt there will be any GM that speaks to you about that.
One thing that could possibly could happen would be that a GM pops in and gives you a little interaction (thanks pseudo, you probably can't remeber but anyway)

It is systematic grinding that is ment (as mentioned by many others) and only-soloing. If you hardly go in parties and play Layo as a single-player-module for NWN (I can't see how this can be motivating in the long run but...)

And if you feel like exploring a bit alone today because you're not in the mood to RP or god knows why, fine!
If you decide that you need some resources for your crafting, fine!
And if you want totest out how strong your PC is, fine aswell!

Just remind yourself that there is another point, which should be the main point, the playing with other people... RPing.... adventuring... friendships and  antagonism... all what makes a PW fun.

"If you want to solo, I can't see anything wrong with it... but it kind of defeats the purpose of playing in a multiplayer RPG."
This quote fits it best. Ofcourse not if you solo from time to time, but if you solo all/most of the time... why not play a good single-player-module or a new RPGame than?!

My two cents,
>Xirion>

Edit:
P.S. My highest char is lvl 10 now (approved half a year ago), I would bet your PC, Nagash, will be higher soon (no offense I just have very few time to spend playing).
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: darkstorme on December 03, 2007, 02:51:04 pm
*nods*  What Xirion said.  Also... I'm not certain where we disagree, Eight-Bit.  I have nothing against soloing - I've done it often enough myself, when I can't find a group.  (And I'd be interested in knowing how 3-4 hours of play can get you to level 7, since I've been playing Therise and Zardoc for months now, and they're both level 6.)

I just think that the point of a Multiplayer Role Playing server like Layonara is the interaction with other players/characters... not simply exploring the world.  The latter is fun.  The former is fantastic.  As I said, soloing harms no one (except perhaps the solo'er), and certainly doesn't harm the server.  But it's not what Layonara's really meant for. :)
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Xirion on December 03, 2007, 03:08:48 pm
Quote from: Nagash von Ritter


It's all about perception, none of the veterans, the admin team or gamemasters will even slightly agree with me, but I would imagine any honest newbies would agree if they wern't afraid of the banhammer.


Oh... another comment to this maybe (I know I am late... I know, I know)

I, not admin or highlevel or too long at this forum and the server, want to say that from my experience sharing once thoughts/feelings/concerns/ideas is not disliked, but wanted

An example is the new rest system this thread (http://forums.layonara.com/general-discussion/129212-problem-new-resting.html) was one of the reason why it was changed to what it is now and not remained as it was designed before that. It was an example of how constructive critics can influence things here.
Ofcourse not everybody is now happy how it is, but that'll never be the case, but I think atleast now all can live with it better.

So aslong as you stay constructive and ontopic without turning insulting, you can say pretty much whatever you want (atleast this is what I feel)
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: ycleption on December 03, 2007, 03:56:02 pm
A couple comments:

First, to Nagash..
I'm not sure where you are picking up the idea that there is retribution for player mistakes... This is a pretty friendly server, and for the most part if you are doing something against the rules, other players will probably let you know , just to be informative, well before it rises to the level that a dm would step in. There have been very few players who have ever been banned here, and most showed complete and utter disregard for the community.

Second, (not sure if this is really quite the right place to say this but...) I hear a lot about how people are worried about level range, and inappropriate partying. To me, difference in level should never never limit who adventures with whom. Obviously, there is a problem when a player regularly goes with groups of much higher level players to high level areas. However, mentoring type relationships are an important part of RP in this type of world, and often it requires adventuring with different level players, or exploring interesting areas that may be a bit beyond the lower level's ability to go to unaided.

Nothing says that a higher level group can't spend some time in low level areas to accommodate a low-level party member. Just about any high-level character can nerf themselves with creative RP to make partying with low-level characters viable: Maybe your dwarven weaponmaster "got drubbed, tho' it shames me to admit it, by a ruddy elf in the Stormcrest dart games... canna' have tha, so I've got to practice a bit on moving targets..." Maybe for a wizard, "I am attempting to work on strengthening my foundational magics, and will only prepare simple warding spells on this outing..." Maybe you "need to work on defensive techniques" and so just use parry mode. I'm sure you can come up with something that works for your own character; Drexia carries nunchuku with her for that purpose, and has a variety of reasons for it depending.

Basically, my opinion is that you should let RP determine who you party with, and then figure out how that party can work within the rules so you aren't leeching off others, or allowing others to be a leech.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Polak76 on December 03, 2007, 09:45:20 pm
Firstly i'd like the thank Nagash for voicing his opinion, especially as a new player.  Sometimes that takes alot of guts, especially in an established server about an often fragile topic.  It's the new players opinions that I'm always interested in.  They give a fresh account of the server and can often identify the flaws that we miss from being so established and sometimes stubborn about.

I also agree with some of your comments, in particular the ones about quests where the heavy-weights get all the attention and you feel like a bystander.  I can't speak for all the GM's, however, if you get a chance to jump on the Australian quests (probably when you get back over here) with Dezza and Psuedo as GM's,  you'll find that their quests are less focused on world altering events, and more focused on player amusement which I feel gives everyone a shot to be the star.

As for fast leveling.  It used to bother me when someone zooms past me in a couple of months of playing versus my year of playing.  Then I take comfort in knowing that they're often just a high level character and nothing more.  My character on the other hand is a rich character, full of mysteries and intrigue and plants his mark on the world.  That is what keeps me here.  If I was leveling up so fast I'd probably have eight characters, all of which would bore me with lack of substance.

As for soloing, you my friend have chosen the lonely road.  To aspire to be a corathite or related faction/alignment usually means to walk the lonely path.  I've had to tamper with the fate of my latest character slightly to allow tolerance for others to join me or visa versa.  Unfortunatley the days we get a Corathite group together are two few and far between, unlike the good ole days.  
Hence soloing is fine so long as it is not abused in my personal opinion.  We can pick on soloing characters as abusing the system by grinding and camping, however, so can groups.  So long as we're all conscious and aware of the rules there are no excuses for that type of behaviour.

To conclude I've had my latest character for a year and I just cracked lvl 16.  My previous character took about a year to hit lvl 20.  Others out there can crack lvl 20 in about 3-5 months.  The difference is available time and if people out there wish to spend all their time online, good luck to you!
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Eight-Bit on December 04, 2007, 12:24:54 pm
Quote from: darkstorme
Well, soloing is not in the spirit of the community.. but it also harms no one but the person doing said soloing.


It was in reply to the harm it may cause to said soloer. Otherwise I agreed entirely. I really ought to be more specific. At least I hold a better train of thought than good ol' Morvis used to.

*Changes the subject and darts away..*
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Nagash von Ritter on December 07, 2007, 10:34:42 am
Quote from: Polak76
Firstly i'd like the thank Nagash for voicing his opinion, especially as a new player.  Sometimes that takes alot of guts, especially in an established server about an often fragile topic.  It's the new players opinions that I'm always interested in.  They give a fresh account of the server and can often identify the flaws that we miss from being so established and sometimes stubborn about.

I also agree with some of your comments, in particular the ones about quests where the heavy-weights get all the attention and you feel like a bystander.  I can't speak for all the GM's, however, if you get a chance to jump on the Australian quests (probably when you get back over here) with Dezza and Psuedo as GM's,  you'll find that their quests are less focused on world altering events, and more focused on player amusement which I feel gives everyone a shot to be the star.

As for fast leveling.  It used to bother me when someone zooms past me in a couple of months of playing versus my year of playing.  Then I take comfort in knowing that they're often just a high level character and nothing more.  My character on the other hand is a rich character, full of mysteries and intrigue and plants his mark on the world.  That is what keeps me here.  If I was leveling up so fast I'd probably have eight characters, all of which would bore me with lack of substance.

As for soloing, you my friend have chosen the lonely road.  To aspire to be a corathite or related faction/alignment usually means to walk the lonely path.  I've had to tamper with the fate of my latest character slightly to allow tolerance for others to join me or visa versa.  Unfortunatley the days we get a Corathite group together are two few and far between, unlike the good ole days.  
Hence soloing is fine so long as it is not abused in my personal opinion.  We can pick on soloing characters as abusing the system by grinding and camping, however, so can groups.  So long as we're all conscious and aware of the rules there are no excuses for that type of behaviour.

To conclude I've had my latest character for a year and I just cracked lvl 16.  My previous character took about a year to hit lvl 20.  Others out there can crack lvl 20 in about 3-5 months.  The difference is available time and if people out there wish to spend all their time online, good luck to you!


Well lonely yes, but sometimes the greatest thing is to take the path less travelled, I would rather walk alone in a new place never before seen than in a shopping mall, seen by millions!
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Gulnyr on December 07, 2007, 01:03:57 pm
An excellent sentiment, but the dark path of Corath is not exactly new.  There have been quite a few Corathite characters, and some of them have left a mark.  The path may not be trampled bare, but it's still obvious that people have walked it.  It's not entirely new, but it's still a lonely path because most characters don't like Corathites.

If you are looking for a truly new path, follow Goran.  Or Deliar.  Or Vierdri'ira.  Even Grand or Grannoch.  These gods have had very few (if any) followers among the PCs.  No one that I know of has ever stood forth and successfully made a mark under these banners.

There's nothing wrong with playing a Corathite character and I'm not trying to dissuade you.  Go for it and have fun.  That path is definitely newer than some others.  I'm just offering that there is a difference between 'new' and 'lonely.'
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Drizzlin on December 07, 2007, 10:22:26 pm
I only know of one cleric of Vierdri'ira ever in play. Gulynr is right though and I admit walking the path alone is fun at times, but very lonely and hard at other times.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Krell Himmler on December 21, 2007, 02:58:29 pm
I agree I like how it is possible to be very dedicated and level (relatively) fast as long as you are involved in many GM run quests/plots and RP exercises. I think it'd be wrong to punish the addicts for playing too much so I think it's a good balance.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Eight-Bit on January 10, 2008, 01:54:56 pm
Quote from: Drizzlin
I only know of one cleric of Vierdri'ira ever in play. Gulynr is right though and I admit walking the path alone is fun at times, but very lonely and hard at other times.


Or painfully dull.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Drizzlin on January 10, 2008, 10:14:21 pm
Quote from: Eight-Bit
Or painfully dull.


I can be "dull" but it can also be what you make of it. I wouldn't change a thing with Daralith or the path I have had to walk to play him. For me it has been anything but dull.

On a good note, if it ever became dull, you can always make another pc!
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Verideth on March 14, 2008, 01:48:39 pm
*throws a nickel in the pot*

I played on a PW named ALFA ( A Land Far Away). They have VERY tight XP and loot rules. I played my main PC for 2~3 years and got to 11 level.

He was very rich in history and stories. Ah Fror the Dwarven Wizard. :D

So far my experience in Layonara has been wonderful. I am honored that the DM's give players freedom to solo, powerlevel (to an extend), group, make a named for themselves and that they stress RP. Humm RP. I love RP.

All that powerleveling without RP, is called WOW.

I know, I played that too.

To me it gets old. I love history and talking old war stories. Remember that time you mooned that Medusa and got turned to stone? Har har har...

This is a game, we should have fun and respect for each other. Ultimately I hope I am making a few new friends out there.

Byron
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Heinz Rondorf on March 14, 2008, 03:02:39 pm
The main problem I have with being a lower lvl is that when I go on a DM quests, I will say something and then it will be ignored. So lately I have not been on any DM quests, and do not plan until I get my PC higher lvl so that what I say will not be ignored.

But I must say, there are a few people out there that do not ignore the lower lvls nearly as much.

My dwarf is lvl 9 now, I will most likely wait till he is lvl 12 until I take him on quests. I still RP with him though. I will sometimes spend over an hour RPing.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Script Wrecked on March 14, 2008, 10:56:45 pm
Quote from: Heinz Rondorf
The main problem I have with being a lower lvl is that when I go on a DM quests, I will say something and then it will be ignored. So lately I have not been on any DM quests, and do not plan until I get my PC higher lvl so that what I say will not be ignored.

But I must say, there are a few people out there that do not ignore the lower lvls nearly as much.

My dwarf is lvl 9 now, I will most likely wait till he is lvl 12 until I take him on quests. I still RP with him though. I will sometimes spend over an hour RPing.


There are many reasons why you get ignored, the following is just one tact.

People need a while to get used to you/your character. Even if they are ignoring you, your responses are still sinking in (throw enough mud, some of its going to stick). After a while, they seem to "get you", and then start responding to you, including you.

My suggestion is do more quests, not less, otherwise when you reach twelveth level, people still won't know you, and you'll still be in the same boat.

"Its a public relations campaign, you've got to put yourself 'out there'".

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Script Wrecked.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: Krell Himmler on March 15, 2008, 12:48:54 pm
In quests many people get their point missed, there are so many messages coming up that it gets hard. I have the same problem personally, people talk to me and I miss a lot of what they say.

I think part of getting noticed in a quest is not being like everybody else...

If you speak like the average American/Australian/British etc adult/teenager/kid you will get ignored. Try and spice up your RP, make your character more unique, do funny, unusual or interesting things to get him/her noticed. I tend to filter out sometimes in quests people who speak like someone on the street and especially people who use any 'gangster' lingo. I think the harder you try and RP and the better you get with time, the more attention you will get.

Go to the once off quests, they're a great place to get involved. Check the calendar and you should find a lot of them. Also, check whenever you log into the server, if anyone is around your level and online, see if you can get some RP/hunting together and get to know people! This really helps to get you known and people listening to you in quests.
Title: Re: For those fast leveling characters out there
Post by: mumbles on March 15, 2008, 01:21:16 pm
Perosnally i feel there a great DICE bAG to help whilst on quest dropping a few points here and there , doesnt hurt .. for Example "Persuade checks" to help put your point across , works wonders ....

Also for instance a large dwarfe might rather intimerdating o a small elven wizard , so maybe a few points in Intimidation would be nice .

Yeah they might not as much use walking around hunting but quest purpose there wonderfull .