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Author Topic: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks  (Read 644 times)

vgn

RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
« Reply #40 on: January 13, 2005, 03:48:00 pm »
Personally I think some of this is getting to finely analyzed. I think Leanthar would just like to see more attention paid to the gods since they play such an important role in this world. When the clerics/paladins/druids are not following dogma even closely then there is a problem but I think there is plenty of latitude in most of it and room for RP.
Three of my characters gain power from a devine source.

Amelia, a cleric of Aeridin, wears silver robes (I couldn't find a white I liked, though someone mentioned the lightest grey and it doesn't look too bad). She wields a heavy mace and a tower shield. She still needs to bug a dm about getting the tower shield switched to a diety shield, but I keep forgetting. She chose the mace over the quarterstaff for two reasons. It falls under a non-maiming weapon catagory and is suited for fighting the undead, to which she is dedicated. So there is deviation, but I personally think it's valid according to how I read the dogma. More than clothing or weapons though, I think Leanthar wants people to ACT more like the cleric they are. In Amelia's case, she is vegetarian, she only kills animals in self defense and only living beings when necessary (They are posing a large threat). She dedicates her time to healing and destroying the undead.

Sago is rogue/cleric of Lucinda. His adventuring garb is black leather and black cape. He has the trickiness domain and is very sneaky as a rogue, so I see no major problem there. He also has a set of blue/white robes that he doesn't wear very often, but perhaps I should start wearing them around town more. As for his weapon, he uses a magically enhanced short sword fitting the magical weapons preference. He doesn't wield a staff because he is a halfling. Sago's interest in Lucinda is primarily driven by his love of magic and magical things. He quests to find magic items loves using them.

Elu is a druid of Katia. He also has a unique background and will most of the time fight in animal form so weapon preference isn't an issue. When he does use weapons he uses either a dagger or a sling, both chosen because of his small gnome stature. As for clothing, he dresses in minimal, simple leather.

So as you can see, none of my characters really follows a strict version of the dress/weapon code, but none deviate horribly, the worst being Sago, but with his personality I think it is warranted. Also, he has requested a CDQ to bring him closer to Lucinda, so he may mix things up a bit.
 

Bralock

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    RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
    « Reply #41 on: January 13, 2005, 03:53:00 pm »
    Well hasn't this thread grown rather large in less than 24 hours...

    I can add a couple of thoughts here I guess.

    Firstly I think there is quite a bit of a difference between clerics and paladins.  Clerics are the voices of the gods and paladins are the enforcers (whoever said that brought up a good point) and normally clerics will have a weapon but their place is not to necessarily be fighting and certainly not within melee range all the time.  Paladins are by nature warriors, holy warriors.  There is a reason that paladins can only come from four groups on Layonara - Toran, Aeridin, Vorax, and Lucinda and the point of being a paladin is an enforcing role.  I can see why a paladin would might use a quarterstaff if they follow Aeridin but they are limiting themselves in their warrior role.  It might be something they would prefer to do, but not necessarily something that could be done and allow them to fulfill their duty properly.  I know that Layonara is very heavily based on PnP and I admit I have played more 2nd Edition than 3rd, so this change with clerics using anything but blunt weapons is unusual to me as well.  I can see why some gods might rarely allow them to use a longsword or such, but most of the clerical weapons were maces and staves back then.  A paladin was always more of a warrior, and hence they wore the platemail, had the shield, and the sword at their arm.  I am not saying that a paladin should not be influenced by their deties preference of certain weapons but I do think that sometimes leniency should be given to paladins.  For an example, with Aeridin it would make sense for them to use a sword (as that is the staple of many paladin weapons) but certainly not a large sword or axe as the Church actively detests such maiming weapons.  One could argue maybe they would also use a mace because it would cause less bloodshed.  I think that if this is the case though there should be a seperate category created in the handbook for clerics and paladins.  The colours?  Certainly!  Paladins and clerics both are out there to promote their god, so that would apply to both, but I just do not see it with the weapons.

    I may be wrong, I would need to look it up, but I had thought that followers of Lucinda prefered to use enchanted weapons.  I believe they favoured robes and staves, but the main point was to be heavily enchanted.  Whether it is an enchanted sword or staff (to which I think both Celgar use) I am not sure if this is wrong.  Enchanted in appearance (visual appearance) or effect (actual damage done) I am not sure which is important for the server.  Obviously at lower levels it is hard to come across enchanted items in either case.

    Now, before I go off of the cleric thoughts I would like to say that you will find some characters which are more fanatic and less true to their gods.  I am not saying that these people should not have penalties, but it should be the playerbase also enforcing this.  For example, there are more than enough clerics of Lucinda running around - if someone such as Celgar was seen as not necessarily doing the right thing (and I believe with him being CN he actually shares the same alignment as his deity - which is another matter of importance, closeness of alignment to your deity) then the higher clerics of Lucinda, Serenity for example, should be actively pointing out his lapse from the dogma and perhaps offer counciling if he is so "troubled" to be wavering from faith or such.  I also will use my cleric as a follower of Aeridin who does not want to see things harmed for better or worse.  Sure, there are times when a life may be taken in self defense as there is no other choice...  However, if my cleric was go see another follower of Aeridin (cleric or paladin) going out causing wanton death and destruction for the sake of "training" then she sure is going to have something to say!  I think you will find many characters that will have different degrees of faith in their god, as it should be.  If everyone was a fanatic then it would make all clerics/paladins of the same god the same.  However, you do need to be sure that players are following the restrictions for their characters.  I think that is a very good distinction, to ensure the players are following the deity roleplay more so than the characters are.

    No, you cannot buy a quarterstaff from the vendors, so I will make sure that it's reported.  When I first started I created a wizard and I wanted a staff but all I could find was a dagger.  Like Lonnarin I did learn in time you could use the fishing rod as an alternative but I really would like to see something different.  It looks the same as a staff and can even be customized to look metal and such and still work, but it's not very realistic.  I have recently been playing a new cleric of mine and I am once again using a fishing pole...  *sigh*

    Ok, and last, but certainly not least...

    Sorry Zhofe I really have always seen Quin as a paladin and not a cleric as well.  I can for all of the reasons listed above and I think you probably know it yourself by some of the things you have said.  This does not mean that Quin cannot change and after a CDQ become a cleric, but certainly if he was to be as he is now he would be a paladin.  By your words, "Quin is pretty much a paladin now, but without the abilities."  CDQ's are life altering changes in the character's life and certainly when religious, their faith.  You can do pretty much anything with a CDQ to make him more "holier" and maybe even take a step back from the fighting, or you can always have his faith waver with his newly found love as he is pulled towards another deity.  I really have a lot of thoughts about Quin from the very little I have actually seen of him (especially as of late) but in the end it is the direction you want to take him.  It is the role of the DMs here to see that your decison fits in with the realism of the world, but in the end you can justify any change for him - that is what good roleplay is all about.
     

    ZeroVega

    RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
    « Reply #42 on: January 13, 2005, 03:55:00 pm »
    To Highwayman:
      Don't know if you're familiar with the Catholic Church or not. But a male who serves god in the Catholic Church is a priest. They have certain "rules" much like the dogma set down by Leanthar, Ed, Ozy and everyone else in the hand book. They'd probably get some stearn looks if someone found out they had neglected to wear their collars for a week or two. Or the nuns if they forgot to wear their head-dresses (or neglected to). Or if they did not abide by any of the other "rules" layed down for them. Most priests (maybe all not 100% sure) wear the same colored robes on the same day depending on what the church orders. Now I know these dogmas are not as strict, but I'd assume they should be inforced to some degree. A cleric of Aeridin wearing Black armor......Nope, not gonna happen. Cleric of Katia weilding an double bladed axe, nope, gonna get fried for that. Follow along somewhat, and keep your uniqueness, but hey these are the rules people.
      ZV-
     

    Aurhinius

    RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
    « Reply #43 on: January 14, 2005, 12:10:00 am »
    A couple of things -

    If you do not even know your god's dogma or anything of his teachings, why are you a cleric or other said holy class?  99% of all religions have some form of religious education including druids that would provide some amount of teachings. These teachings would be the basis of any acceptence into a holy life. More over gods do not just grant their powers over just anyone. At this time the gods are struggling. This is part of the plot and as some of you will know the gods have had trouble in the past being able to grant certain exceptional powers to their followers. If they have limited capability which it appears they do they are not going to grant that power to people who only give a meagre 30% back in return.  If you want to give just 30% or so then play a class that does not have any kind of granted divine powers. Fighters, mages, bards can all still worship a god or give some respect to one but will recieve no powers as they are not as focused upon their god as say a cleric.

    I am sure everyone knows this but it is important to remember these things and it reflects upon why we are turning toward encouraging. The correct word is encouraging our holy characters to really delve into your dieties. There is a lot of depth and enjoyment there to be had. It is not however a straight jacket or mold. There are however certain dieties that are going to be stricter in certain circumstances than others. They have to maintain their images too ;-)

    Remeber some gods can be fickle....
     

    cappyra

    RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
    « Reply #44 on: January 14, 2005, 05:54:00 am »
    OK I know I said I was done but. . . heh

    The movie "Excalibur" 1981 directed by John Boorman is a great depiction of Knighthood.  If you have seen the movie you will know what I mean.

    While Lancelot was the greatest of all Knights, he still struggled against his desires as he served god and king.  

    At one point in the movie, Guenevere has been accused of causing disruption in the court by having a relationship with Lancelot.   Lancelot is not there and she must have a champion to fight for her cause.  She turns to Authur and says "Will you not fight for me?"  Authur says something like "I am your King and so must be your judge in this"  also later he says something to the fact that he is king first and husband second.

    The reason I mentioned this movie is that it shows the Knight struggling with his calling against the desires in his heart.   Being a Paladin is also about sacrifice.

    I would also like to point out that in the old Dieties and Demigods the Authurian Knights were considered Paladins.

    Now my point.  According to Quin's journal, his admitance to essentially being a Paladin without the abilities and his obvious unwavering dedication to Toran we definately see a calling.  

    What I kindof see is Quin being reluctant to answer the call to Paladinhood.  Quin has been touched by Toran no doubt...  and perhaps Toran has plans for Quin.  Quin wrestles with his love for Mirren, his self doubt for not heeding the call sooner and the undeniable call of Toran.

    This is good RP material here...

    Not only good RP material but a huge amount of material for your CDQ.  

    While your diary reflects dreams shown to you as being a healer. . .  Undeniably you Layed Hands as Cattery pointed out... and removing disease...  you can also do... as a Paladin...  and cure poison at higher levels... soooo

    I am really really done now... no really  LOL riiiight
     

    Zhofe

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    RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
    « Reply #45 on: January 14, 2005, 06:37:00 am »
    Alright, lets break it down to levels.

    As a level 12 fighter, level 1 paladin, I will be able to lay hands for 1, maybe 2 points. And this will be the standard until I am a level 12 fighter level 9 paladin (cumulative level 21) where I will finally be able to cast cure light wounds for 4 points (yay!)

    As a Cleric, Quin will be able to more quickly take on the healer role I want to develope. Becoming a paladin present NO change in Quin because that is already what he IS minus the abilities.

    Becoming a Cleric allows Quin to develope into something he is not yet. It allows him to expand, to broaden, and to become more of what I want.

    Both in statistical leveling, and in an RP sense, Quin becoming a Paladin is about as pointless as Derrick becoming a Barbarian. Would it fit what he is, sure, but it is ALREADY what he is, just without the special title. Personally, I think it would have made more sense to dual class Derrick into a barbarian so that he could take advantage of the rage and such things. You decided to develope him into more of a master of his weapon. I don't see how anyone that crazy can master anything, but it is your character.

    Sure, Quin could become a Paladin, but it isn't what I want. It isn't what Quin wants. It isn't part of the plan I have set up for him.

    Now, before we continue to disrupt this post with talk of Quin, any more talk about Quin being a paladin should be sent to me in a PM. Let this post be for people who want to ask L and Ed questions about their faith. I already know what I am trying to do with Quin.
     

    Leanthar

    RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
    « Reply #46 on: January 14, 2005, 07:02:00 am »
    Let us take the Quin discussion to another thread please.
     

    Dorganath

    RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
    « Reply #47 on: January 14, 2005, 07:13:00 am »
    The point about Arthurian Knights being Paladins is a good one.

    But you're also taking the artistic license of a Hollywood movie about the idealized Arthurian legend and applying that to D&D source material. That's kind of apples and oranges, if you ask me.

    And nowhere is it addressed whether Lancelot would have become a "fallen" Paladin for going against the trust of his king and thereby his God (recall that kings and queens were supposedly granted their power by divine favor).  Lancelot was flawed and in conflict, yes.  But in the D&D realm, flawed paladins don't stay paladins for very long once they start giving into their weaknesses.
     

    cappyra

    RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
    « Reply #48 on: January 14, 2005, 07:45:00 am »
    *Derrick looks over

    Barbarian?  I resemble that remark...

    Zhofe,
       I will respect your request about PMing you about Quin becoming a Paladin.  My posts were not an attack on Quin or you as a player.  Your RP in game is excellent.  Please don't feel like you need to get defensive.  I was merely pointing out ideas and expressing an opinion or to encourage other roleplaying ideas.  This is all about having fun.  I was just trying to help.

    I chose to develop Derrick as a Weaponmaster because it fit perfectly with my background, IG character development, skill AND if you read Derrick's Character approvals there are parts of the story I wrote that actually happened IG.  Other characters asked if I was a weaponmaster or if I was going to become a weaponmaster before I even considered it.  After this I actually looked at the requirements and they had already been met.  So my progression was actually a natural occuring thing... it wasn't something I set out to do... it was something that Derrick had become.  Sort of a CD without the Q  LOL

    No one ever called Derrick a barbarion LOL (barbaric maybe)...  and I would NEVER choose to dual class a character just to take advantage of a statistical advantage.  That is not Role Playing... that is Power Gaming.

    As far as Derrick being Crazy... absolutely... Insane Homicidal Maniac...  that doesn't mean he is dumb by any means. (INT 13)   He actually uses cunning, strategy and intelligence to overcome his enemies.   Of course... this is sometimes... OK most times... over ridden by his insane bloodlust... (WIS 9) LOL

    This is a really good thread.  As a DM in PnP I always encouraged player input even if it bent or sometimes broke the rules.  However since it was my world in which the characters were playing you had to keep things within the bounds of... as odd as this may sound... reality.  At least the reality according to the world I had created.   One of the funniest things that would happen is that the very same players who would want to bend the rules... were usually the first to complain if an NPC was able to do something outside the rules.. LOL

    I guess the point I am trying to make is that in order for a fantasy realm to be... believable it has to have its own set of rules and guildlines and things considered the norm.  There is always enough room for uniqueness and that is further compounded by good RP.   So if the "norm" is for clerics of a specific diety to follow a certian set of rules governing clothing, colors, weapons, etc then those should be fairly strictly followed.

     

     

    cappyra

    RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
    « Reply #49 on: January 14, 2005, 08:09:00 am »
    The only reason I quoted or brought up that specific movie is because of the couple of situations that occured that showed the Knight's (Paladin's) inner struggle between doing what is the will of god and thier own desires.  Also that specific movie is a very good take on the Arthurian Legend.  If you haven't seen it...  see it =)

    In one scene Lancelot is dreaming of fighting an armored knight.  He kills the knight an lifts the visor and sees himself.  He awakens with a start and has stabbed himself through the side with his own sword.  A great scene that depicts the knight's struggle.

    Also in the movie...  Lancelot did in a sense become fallen...  and ran into the wildnerness.  At one point later during the quest for the Holy Grail (in which he was not questing for) he has become a madman with wild hair and a long beard yelling maniacally about the end of the world.  He even attacks one of the knights questing for the grail.

    *Ending Spoiler LOL

    At the end of the movie he returns to fight in the last battle at Authur's side finally overcoming his inner struggle and thus restoring his faith in god and king.  He dies... but not from the wounds in the last battle.. in fact he did not recieve a single wound...  it was the old wound in his side that brought about his demise.  Authur's last words are of forgivness and that Lancelot was the greatest of all knights and represents what is good in men.

    WOW what a great flick!  I'm gonna watch it this weekend.

    The movie is Excalibur (1981) directed by John Boorman based on Le Morte d' Arthur by Sir Thomas Malory

    Except no subsitutes LOL
     

    Dorganath

    RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
    « Reply #50 on: January 14, 2005, 08:26:00 am »
    Yeah, I guess I haven't seen it...or at least not in a long time.

    At any rate, as you say, Lancelot falls.  So if he was a paladin before, he lost that status as he lost the inner battle and gave into his weaknesses.  When he died, though he gained some level of forgiveness and he was remorseful for his past, he did not regain his paladin status....nor should he have.

    I guess what I'm saying is that this movie doesn't really support what you're saying about Qu....er...some ficticious, pious fighter who's pursuing a greater devotion to his diety. *ahem* ;)  I'd say it would make the case for a character such as that NOT pursuing the path of a paladin....but maybe it's my own skewed perspective.
     

    cappyra

    RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
    « Reply #51 on: January 14, 2005, 08:47:00 am »
    Actually I did see Lancelot redeeming himself and thus regaining his status.  A fallen Paladin does not have to stay fallen forever...  I think there is redemption.  But that would have to be between the Paladin and his god.

    Unfortunately Lancelot got his 10th death token at the end of the movie soooo...  LOL
     

    lonnarin

    RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
    « Reply #52 on: January 18, 2005, 01:08:00 pm »
    When you die fallen but in an act of redemption you don't get your powers back.  Instead you just get to party with Ewoks and drink a specteral beer with Yoda and ObiWan
     

    Diamondedge

    RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
    « Reply #53 on: September 01, 2005, 04:02:00 am »
    A few pointers from my own corner of the ocean:

    Dogmas are philosophies to live by and mandates to follow. Favored weapons are what the clergy tend to use, or the tales tell the Deities use. Example from D&D: Correlon Laretien uses a longsword. His clergy TEND to use longswords. However, nowhere is it mandated that you must use the longsword. Gods aren't that fickle...

    "I am a Paladin first and a Liontaur after, Brother." - Quote from Quest for Glory III...

    According to the D&D 3e handbook, they aren't neccessarily holy warriors, but people who have heard a calling to do good. They are a beacon of yadda yadda yadda, blah blah blah. I have always combined the Quest for Glory ideal with this D&D ideal to say basically that Paladins are warriors of honor and virtue whom give their lives that another may live kind of heroism. Not "I'll try and swoop down to save you while I'm battling the evil pit fiend into Hell's gate again, but in the scheme of things, you're not as important as the world", it's "I will do everything in my power to save both you and the world. If I shall be destroyed in the process, so be it, it is a small price to pay."

    It isn't neccessarily a matter of Divinity here; I have personally always fought that Paladins should be warriors of Good, not just a deity (But that isn't an arguement for right now). The heart and soul of the Paladin is what defines him from the common warrior. The purity, virtue and honor of the Paladin are what makes a Paladin a Paladin. To falter, and blacken your pure soul by acting against honor and virtue, you relieve yourself of your abilities fostered from Paladinhood. Of couse, on top of acting in honor, you must also act in accordance with the oath you swore to your deity when joining the church, and acting against that will sulley the paladinhood also. Hm.

    Okay, well, enough of that. Let's talk Clerics and Paladins for a second. Many people, I think, have confused these two. I've heard things like "Paladins are the church, Paladins are far more devout than Clerics to the deity" and I find this a bunch of hogwash. :) It's all backwards, really. Clerics spend their lives spreading the word of the church, spreading the goodwill of their God, and helping others to learn faith in the name of their deity. Clerics are the ones you'll see wandering the streets of a town, preaching the Dogma, wearing the robes, carrying the staves. Paladins, on the other hand, are protectors. They should follow the ruling "Paladinhood first, Dogma second". The Paladin must journey all over the world and rout out evil, save others from horrible fates, give to goodwill. I don't really know where people got off calling them enforcers, but... They aren't the ones that preach the scriptures, so they aren't always the ones that will be able to pick apart the Solomon questions. That's cleric's work. Paladins combat evil in the name of their God, not preach the ways of their gods. Again, that's a priest's work.

    Example:

    A cleric and a paladin of, oh, I don't know, let's say Lucinda, walk down the road, spotting two ruffians beating on a poor, helpless old man. The cleric frowns and shakes his head, rushing forward to try and help the man, going so far as to chase the ruffians off with his staff. The yells at them to try and get them to follow the ways of Lucinda, love all and love magic, yadda yadda.

    The Paladin doesn't stop there, however. He makes sure the old man is alright, and then chases after the ruffians, to take them to justice. Not once does he mention Lucinda, he says 'Law this, Law that, peace blah blah blah'. Cleric: Healing the old man, telling him this that and the other thing about Lucinda.

    Well, I've completely missed the point and this post shall harbor much criticism. It is 5:00 am and I can't remember the first things I typed in here. I'm falling asleep, so criticise me if you must, but keep in mind I'm dead tired and therefor have little to no idea what I'm currently talking about. :)
     

    Filatus

    RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
    « Reply #54 on: September 01, 2005, 06:36:00 am »

    I think you have as misconception about paladins. Not all are like the paladins of Toran (Tyr).

    Paladins are trained from when they are still children, or call it brainwashed. They live to protect and serve the church, living by the standards of the faith.

    3e D&D might state that they don't always have to be holy warriors, but you have to look at it from the context of Layonara. All paladins serve a church.

    About people thinking paladins are closer to their god than clerics, I think you have misunderstood people's respect for paladins. Sure, everyone has seen a cleric, but to see a paladin charge into battle protected by the grace of his god is a rare site.

    Paladins are special because they're rare and a bit mysterious.
     

    Dorganath

    RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
    « Reply #55 on: September 01, 2005, 07:26:00 am »
    Just for fun, you should take a peek at the information on Protectors of the Weave (Lucinda's Paladins) in the new handbook. 
     

    Zen

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    RE: Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Champions, or Monks
    « Reply #56 on: September 08, 2005, 11:42:00 am »
    Hey!, you all forget about the Monks? Or am I the only one that plays a Monk of a Deity?

    Lets see R/P for a Dwarven Monk of Vorax: frist I think it is hard to do the dwarf talk/type thing but I'm tring; as to follower of Vorax I have talked to Leanther about the use of a helm "Helm of armor II" and he DID NOT say that I could not use it, however I choose not to. (yes monks can wear helms) I decided that because I am tring to become a "Brother of Battle in Vorax'es Monasonic Order" (ie. A Champion Monk of Vorax) that this little hardship is one I must bare.

    As far as RPing this to those that have gamed with me before I removed the Helm, I have been telling them that: "Vorax came to me in a dream and told me to remove my helm, and no longer use it if I wish to be one of his favorites." Yes I have read the thing on Gods visiting PC's but, with this restriction of an allowed item I could not think of another way to say it. Kinda like in plaing a PnP D&D game (chainmail/D&D/AD&D/AD&D2ndE) me passing a note to the DM and getting it back, then adding my restriction and passing it back to the DM and the DM writing "ok" on it then passing it back.

    Also "Garnet" has Never retreated from battle and more than not goes after the "Spellcasters". Yes he has died alot but, I personally see the respawning as Vorax saying "Good job lad now get back in the Battle 'n finish them off"

    OK I have bared my soul, time for all of you to attack it  ;)