Ability Score

[miltonyorkcastle]

Hehehe. Ahh, good times.

[Filatus]

Good points Chongo. I think the biggest issue in regard to balance is that because of the need to balance for groups, the focus is generally on hitpoints and not so much on AC. Even at the high end, creatures are generally easy to hit but take a lot of damage before they fall.

It's just a lot easier and more practical to balance encounters with adding hitpoints and damage reduction, than it is with AC.

That is why mass death spells or dev. critical are so powerful. The amount of hitpoints on a creature becomes meaningless.

[Chongo]

Good points Chongo. I think the biggest issue in regard to balance is that because of the need to balance for groups, the focus is generally on hitpoints and not so much on AC. Even at the high end, creatures are generally easy to hit but take a lot of damage before they fall.

It's just a lot easier and more practical to balance encounters with adding hitpoints and damage reduction, than it is with AC.

That is why mass death spells or dev. critical are so powerful. The amount of hitpoints on a creature becomes meaningless.

I will fully admit that I have always had a tendency to raise HP instead of AC.  And its exactly as you said - group balance, prolonging the battle.  You'll find a large percentage of the epic creatures on Layo have artificially inflated HP/ DR, while still being fairly easy to hit for the average player at that CR - in fact, I'd guess in most cases a good 5 levels lower.  And... this might be faulty.  You're absolutely right in regard to increasing effectiveness of instant death, in any form.  I dunno - same could be said of AC.  HP/ DR always seemed to help out the underdog more, as hitting the AC increase track balances to maximized player builds moreso then HP/DR.  Dunno .. the game just gets *so* easy at same-CR when its in a group.  And with the emphasis on group over solo, you can't translate the arguments between them.

....except with mages due to mass death spells.  People see this, and it's an exception to group vs. solo balance.  And so the attempt, right or wrong, is made to translate solo melee to the same exception.  But it's wrapping one's head around an exception instead of the intention.  That said, I empathize and still feel bad that it is the way it is.  When Orth and I were reworking spells (read: he did all the real work), the ending thought was to not take away from anyone in the changes.  While the contention was made to change mass death to single-hitters or something like d4 + additional effect, it was decided to not take away anything from anyone, and try to just give instead.

This is a bit of a derail... but the goal is to show how its easy to wrap ones head around an exception and raise the bar elsewhere to match it.  But its not the intended balance, and dev crit being easier to attain certainly should be.  That said, the irony of the dev crit requirement to me has always been that the requirement itself lends itself to a more powerful outcome, which railroads it to more gimpy DC builds.  I believe this was discussed several times, and certainly during the feat/ spell rework.  I just don't think it made the cut.

[jrizz]

wizards can't start a huge mele fight with a spawn.

fighters can't as well

[jrizz]

While it is great to work out the numbers on how any powerful feat would be devastating given the perfect build it does not address the norm or not so perfect builds. It also does not address the fact that we travel in groups so even if a fighter had dev crit it would not be killing everything in sight since the casters in the group do most of that.

Dev crit is not so powerful when you frame it around the normal builds and group play.

Furthermore we keep looking at dev crit in its max mode. Meaning that as Chongo said "the irony of the dev crit requirement to me has always been that the  requirement itself lends itself to a more powerful outcome, which  railroads it to more gimpy DC builds". We should look at how "powerful" it would be if the pre req was 27 STR and the melee build was not fully optimized.

Lastly putting dev crit within reach of more PCs is not going to create a storm of additional soloers. Melee PCs still need caster buffs to survive most fights.

[jadewillow]

Lets also remember the dev crit will not work against undead, constructs, ooze, and elementals of which there are a surprising number in Layo. I would also wager that there are other creatures in Layo that have been amped to be immune to critical hits. Like say Dragons?

I also think the requirement of 30 Strength is a bit absurd. What other feats require a 30 ability? Dragon Shape? Not to start another comparison of feats, but in my opinion Dragon Shape blows away Dev Crit as far as it's effectiveness in Layo.

[gilshem ironstone]

Self-Concealment requires 30 Dexterity.

[Chongo]

I would also wager that there are other creatures in Layo that have been amped to be immune to critical hits. Like say Dragons?

I actually rarely made things crit or sneak attack immune.  Pretty exceptional cases when trying to promote a variable group with reverse balance logic.  Not sure if anyone ever noticed the number of DnD standard crit immune that just weren't.  Can't speak for the other builders though.

I also think the requirement of 30 Strength is a bit absurd. What other feats require a 30 ability? Dragon Shape? Not to start another comparison of feats, but in my opinion Dragon Shape blows away Dev Crit as far as it's effectiveness in Layo.

I'd personally take a dev critter over a dragon shape most days of the week.  Not to say dragon shape isn't fun and neat, but effectiveness?  You're speaking more of the class backing it than the feat.  I can make a melee druid with dev crit and we can have them compare results if you like.  I'll admit it'd probably go in favor of the dragon since it's so easy to max out spell power with... just saying.

Dev crit is not so powerful when you frame it around the normal builds and group play.

Furthermore we keep looking at dev crit in its max mode. Meaning that as  Chongo said "the irony of the dev crit requirement to me has always  been that the  requirement itself lends itself to a more powerful  outcome, which  railroads it to more gimpy DC builds". We should look at  how "powerful" it would be if the pre req was 27 STR and the melee  build was not fully optimized.

Yeah... when I said that I meant more that it should require something like 2 applicable epic skill focus feats, all the initiative feats, epic prowess, thug, improved power attack, etc etc.  Disclaimer: I don't actually recommend these feats, I'm just pointing out semi-extraneous ones.  Not just to change the STR requirement.  Heck, you could eliminate the STR requirement altogether and put up 8 feat reqs that make sense, and don't just add to balance irony.

Lastly putting dev crit within reach of more PCs is not going to create a  storm of additional soloers. Melee PCs still need caster buffs to  survive most fights.

You're confusing melee with caster/ non-caster.  It's exceptionally easy to make a dev critting caster.  So... it shouldn't be part of the argument.

I'm all for dev crit changing.  So don't get me wrong.  It just seems this server is mostly ignorant of what can be done with it, and what will be done with it.  The tit for tat balance arguments are just all over the place and show that folks honestly just aren't that aware of the feat.  And it should never cite the current PC examples, change for current PC examples, nor assume it will maintain a low balance average.  And it shouldn't just be peeled back a bit on the str requirement.  It should either change in how it functions (I made it a flat crit damage bonus on my old old unsuccessful server), or require a broader, less streamlined set of feat requirements.

Anyhow - I don't mean to argue it, just think it takes several steps back to fix it, not just a half step.

[Hellblazer]

Oh they are a surprising amount of things that are immune to sneak I Remember having a hard time with Brian when he was still around. Giants and bugbear was his main course. But that's an aside thing. I haven't met too many things in the higher level range that were actually immune to crits, but that's probably because I haven't traveled to the higher places yet.

[akata]

On a side note I think it is way unfair that great STR is not a bonus feat and that on Layo the pre req STR for Dev Crit got raised by 5 points. Great STR not being a bonus feat WAS the balancing for dev crit. So dev crit on Layo has been over worked in the balancing effort

I would suggest dropping the dev crit STR req to 27 or 28. With Great STR not being a bonus feat it will still take sacrifice and work to get to a base of 27. But at least it will be reachable by more fighter classes.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein  :p

http://forums.layonara.com/nwn-ideas-suggestions-requests/97498-dev-crit.html

http://forums.layonara.com/nwn-ideas-suggestions-requests/256652-de-nerf-dev-crit-thread.html

Sorry if that seems rude but my post about max ability had nothing at all to do about drev crit, I find the thread hijacking unnecessary more so because that precise argument has been addressed in previous posts.
 

[Polak76]

I envy you guys that can make characters with the sole purpose of maximising a stat to achieve best results with regards to combat.  I've often made characters that would come into their glory by the time they reach level 25 but I get to level 8 and think.."god this is boring", and hence delete them.
The only thing I think is unbalanced is having PWK giving will saves as this is relatively easy to get and most things have a crappy will save.  

I think a warrior with Dev Crit would be a joy to play.  The one thing I can't stand is the need to rest or no magic zones.  For this reason alone they definately outshine a mage anyday.

Cheers,
Polak.

[Chazzler]

Well yeah, Power Word: Kill has a will save, yet there are a multitude of creatures on every continent of the world that are immune to Mind Affecting Spells & Effects, which makes them immune to it.
Much like you can't expect to go to a crypt and blast the heck out of the undead there with Negative Energy spells and Wails of the Banshee, you can't expect to go to say the same crypt/elementals/constructs/dragon/some-other-thing-that-is-immune-to-mind-effects and blast them to death with PWK.

[Chongo]

I've often made characters that would come into their glory by the time they reach level 25 but I get to level 8 and think.."god this is boring", and hence delete them.

Right there with ya.  As glorious as that cleric with dev crit would be after a handful of great wisdoms to get the casting up to speed by the late 20's and finally getting that dev crit at level 39.... it's a lot more fun to actually function for the first two years of playing.

The only thing I think is unbalanced is having PWK giving will saves as this is relatively easy to get and most things have a crappy will save.  

This isn't accurate.

[jrizz]

Take all insta kill powers out of the game. Everyone okay with that?

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Take all insta kill powers out of the game. Everyone okay with that?

Absolutely not. Save-or-die is a key element to this type of game. I don't know how the MMO will go, but taking out save-or-lose from a D&D based game would be like taking out critical hits, or balancing casters with noncasters.

[Lareth]

My personal feeling about Dev crit is that it should be a limited use targetable ability much like WM ki strike ability is.  Makes more sense to me that way...otherwise I think youd look like tasmanian devil when trying to chop everyones head off in one swoop.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

My personal feeling about Dev crit is that it should be a limited use targetable ability much like WM ki strike ability is.  Makes more sense to me that way...otherwise I think youd look like tasmanian devil when trying to chop everyones head off in one swoop.

You want to make it like Ki Strike? You mean, completely useless?

Devestating Critical as a per/day would function better as a duration effect - you get the benefits of the feat for a certain duration, a certain number of times per day. That would necessitate lower entry requirements, though.

[Chongo]

But after playing and developing other games/ servers and seeing their systems... I really wish caster spells were 1) on individual spell timers instead of rest cycles, and 2) single target hits especially in the case of death and disabling spells.

Devestating Critical as a per/day would function better as a duration  effect - you get the benefits of the feat for a certain duration, a  certain number of times per day. That would necessitate lower entry  requirements, though.

Agreed.  And henceforth it shall be known as Dragon Age.

[miltonyorkcastle]

**snickers**

[drakogear]

Aerimor is very wise.

And Raz is very smart and very unwise.

An old post and perhaps a bit off topic but just have to say...

With Aerimore being very wise and Raz being very intelligent then does that mean...

Aerimor is a simpleton

and

Raz is an absent minded professor?

read the descriptions for Wisdom and intelligence and you'll see what I mean.