Ask Loremaster: Prison's of layonara

[Silvanne]

I am trying to complete a bio that was torn to shreds by an approver, most the gap I need to fill correctly is about the prison's on layonara. I require not only the locations, but complete maps of each. I also do need any new, not the current information Lore about Sutlerio. As my Approver states things, not found anywhere within the Lore about the god. Thereby, this means the Lore, is utterly out of date.

 
     Thank you for any and all information provided.

[Dorganath]

I am trying to complete a bio that was torn to shreds by an approver, most the gap I need to fill correctly is about the prison's on layonara. I require not only the locations, but complete maps of each. I also do need any new, not the current information Lore about Sutlerio. As my Approver states things, not found anywhere within the Lore about the god. Thereby, this means the Lore, is utterly out of date.

 
     Thank you for any and all information provided.

I respectfully ask that you temper the sarcasm in your request.  I can see there has been some disconnect between you and the last Character Approver to review your rather lengthy and creative submission. However, I do know that he is not asking for things like complete maps and an entire complement of Layonaran prisons. Sulterio's lore is complete as given in the online resources. What will not be written is how Sulterio's lore and dogma can be interpreted.  In questions such as the ones raised by your application, discussions are often had with the Loremaster, such that everything stays consistent.  There are things that are open for interpretation and things that will never fit no matter how hard one pushes.

You have asked, through your submission, for a rather tricky combination of characteristics and traits in terms of lore. The Character Approvers are trying to make sure your concept fits what we have defined, and in the process, they are trying to help guide you through the process.  I know that sometimes the questions and comments do not seem "helpful", but it is often difficult to relay intent through a text-only media.

Now, if you need a place for a prison or dungeon that might work, the city of Arnax in the Nesar Kingdom in southern Belinara would be a rather fitting location.

[Silvanne]

I was not being sarcasm I do honestly need those maps, I need to find one that has as the approver put it. " Under ground catacombs. " I need to look threw the ones that do in fact have them, if any do and then pick the one that best suits my character's bio, for location, depth and size. I wanted to make sure the lore was correct, as the dogma is described how Rajaral see's it, at no time does the character submission, refer to how the approver see's the dogma. I was just trying to ensure, the information I had used was current. The Maps I do need, thats not sarcasm. Thats interested, in full research materials. Honestly I am not sure how you would immediately think the worst of my post, oh wait does bais mean anything to you.

 After reading the new constructive recap of my character submission I will not be needing the prison maps, yet to be honest. Its wrong for you, to immediately think it was in sarcasm. Interesting how an honest request for research material, is immediately seen as sarcasm. I wont make the mistake of asking for any more information or reserarch material. You have proven without a doubt, that would be seen as sarcasm.

[Dorganath]

I was not being sarcasm I do honestly need those maps, I need to find one that has as the approver put it. " Under ground catacombs. " I need to look threw the ones that do in fact have them, if any do and then pick the one that best suits my character's bio, for location, depth and size. I wanted to make sure the lore was correct, as the dogma is described how Rajaral see's it, at no time does the character submission, refer to how the approver see's the dogma. I was just trying to ensure, the information I had used was current. The Maps I do need, thats not sarcasm. Thats interested, in full research materials. Honestly I am not sure how you would immediately think the worst of my post, oh wait does bais mean anything to you.

 After reading the new constructive recap of my character submission I will not be needing the prison maps, yet to be honest. Its wrong for you, to immediately think it was in sarcasm. Interesting how an honest request for research material, is immediately seen as sarcasm. I wont make the mistake of asking for any more information or reserarch material. You have proven without a doubt, that would be seen as sarcasm.

I am not interested in debating semantics. In truth, you were not actually asked for a map of anything, as you have apparently come to understand. I can only assume your request in this thread was related to this:

(5th) There's also the issue of the prison into which Rajaral's been  thrown. I can think of no city in Layonara with prisons quite that  extensive which haven't been well-documented, and none of them have  extensive half-ruined underground catacombs where prisoners can roam  around apparently at will. This will likely have to be revised to fit  with Lore, or the Loremaster can vet them for you.{ Since the lore  maps are incomplete and do not have detailed city maps, prisons, towns,  farms, etc. It was part of the fill the huge gaps left by the limited  information the Lore provides. Sure the long time player might know, but  what about new players who have no idea and yet are held by the same  reguards as someone like yourself. If you want to hold me by what you  know, the Lore needs to be seriously updated. }

What was perhaps not clearly articulated in darkstorme's comments in this snip was that we don't have any prisons really documented with any specific layouts, rules or the like.  That's not to say there aren't prisons, dungeons or catacombs for prisoners, only that we don't have them defined. When he said, "This will likely have to be revised to fit  with Lore, or the Loremaster can vet them for you." he was saying that that he would have to verify that the dungeon like one you describe would fit.  Since, as I have said, that sort of lore remains undefined as yet, it may have to be reviewed by our Loremaster to make sure it remains consistent.  That's all. It was not a requirement or a request for anything that is "undocumented" or which would be known to a long-time player or GM. It was not an expectation that someone relatively (or completely) new to this game world would somehow be held to higher standards than someone who has been here longer.

It is actually an opportunity that comes up now and again. We have had cases, in the past, where a situation or story element has been presented in a character application and where that element has been added to our world lore.  This could be such an occasion, as long as it fits. We don't claim that what is defined is everything that can be, but at the same time, anything that fills in the gaps needs to fit within what has already been defined.

However, based on the tone of your reply and the subsequent starting of this thread, it seems to be your perception (and do correct me if I'm wrong) that you were asked for the Undefined, as if somehow we have it somewhere and were simply withholding it or choosing not to divulge it. The tone of your response to darkstorme and the tone of the top of this thread are somewhat aggressive and pointed. If you wish to call this interpretation "assuming the worst" then I am not going to argue, however incorrect I may feel such characterization may be.  

Despite your own assumptions, I am not biased. I am, however, rather protective and supportive of our various teams here, and I admit this freely. In truth, I am protective and supportive of this community in general, but I do not play the bias game.  And that's all it is...a game. It's counter productive and a waste of everyone's time. I don't know you. I've never interacted with you before this thread. I have no basis for bias. I do expect, and hope, that everyone here, whether new or old, player or GM, treats everyone else with respect. I know there will always be factions, cliques, groups, friendships and adversarial relationships between individuals, but we have always expected that people communicating here maintain a level of respect for each other and for this community. It's very simple, and this was the basis of my first reply.  If you show respect,  you will get respect. Even after this conversation, I will treat you with the same degree of evenness that I apply to everyone here on administrative matters.  

So, back to your original request, which I realize you have now essentially rescinded, it would have been more appropriate to ask for information on prisons and leave it at that, or perhaps even ask specific questions, such as is the sort of prison you wrote about a viable and likely locale somewhere on Layonara, rather than going to the unnecessary extreme of requesting a complete listing of them all as well as detailed maps. I know the example is now irrelevant, but consider your approach if you decide to ask again for clarification or just a point of interest.

[Silvanne]

The request for the prison maps was made after he requested, the catacomb information. I am sure the posts are dated, that would show this. {04-02-11 @615am } my original post for the maps was { 04-04-11 809pm } Todays post is a whole day away from the original post. Either way you slice it, your wrong again. The time date stamp proves this much. Why debate, you took what I wrote and immediately believed I was asking in malice when in truth I was really seeking research material. The quote you posted was handled after I posted in the reguards to needing the maps. The only Debate is if you will admit you were wrong in immediately believing my post was in malice, when in all honestity. It was a request for more research information. Which as of today, is no longer needed. Thank God, would hate to be accussed of other malice, for asking for help.

[Dorganath]

The request for the prison maps was made after he requested, the catacomb information. I am sure the posts are dated, that would show this. {04-02-11 @615am } my original post for the maps was { 04-04-11 809pm } Todays post is a whole day away from the original post. Either way you slice it, your wrong again. The time date stamp proves this much. Why debate, you took what I wrote and immediately believed I was asking in malice when in truth I was really seeking research material. The quote you posted was handled after I posted in the reguards to needing the maps. The only Debate is if you will admit you were wrong in immediately believing my post was in malice, when in all honestity. It was a request for more research information. Which as of today, is no longer needed. Thank God, would hate to be accussed of other malice, for asking for help.

I am aware of the timeline, and I know your request for that information  came after darkstorme's comment, though we both know and can see from  the thread and my excerpt pasted above, that he did not ask for catacomb  information.  He mentioned it may need to be revised or at least vetted  by the Loremaster. Nothing more. You seem to have taken it to the greater extreme on your own.  Perhaps that was a misunderstanding on your part.  That's fair, but you must then also accept that it's possible for others to misinterpret your further comments and requests on the matter.

By "debate" I was referring to this sort of dissection of words, assumed intent, meaning and now finger-pointing. I really have no desire to perpetuate the negative feelings and accusations. If you want to believe I am 100% in error, then I am not going to spend any more time arguing the point. Maybe you misinterpreted. Maybe I did.  Maybe we both did. It is not a matter worth pursuing further.

I responded to this thread after having read through the relevant portions of your character submission so I could make an informed reply and hopefully offer some in-context advice to you on the matter. That it was a day or two after the post in your submission thread makes no difference. It is this thread that prompted my reply, not your character submission.

Regardless, you state there was no malice, and I accept that as long as you accept I am not displaying any negative bias toward you or the subsequently clarified intent of your request.  We can say there was error on all sides, shake hands and move on. It's what I intend to do...move on.

[Silvanne]

Did you even read the 02-04-11 @615 am post by darkstorme? I guess not as you are still refering to a later post. I will quote where and what promted my request for research material. Since its apparent you are un-able to find the correct post. " There's also the issue of the prison into which Rajaral's been thrown. I can think of no city in Layonara with prisons quite that extensive which haven't been well-documented, and none of them have extensive half-ruined underground catacombs where prisoners can roam around apparently at will. This will likely have to be revised to fit with Lore, or the Loremaster can vet them for you " This is what gave me justification, to request the loremaster for the prison information.

Not a later post.



There is no smiley face with his tongue sticking out

[lonnarin]

Did you even read the 02-04-11 @615 am post by darkstorme? I guess not as you are still refering to a later post. I will quote where and what promted my request for research material. Since its apparent you are un-able to find the correct post. " There's also the issue of the prison into which Rajaral's been thrown. I can think of no city in Layonara with prisons quite that extensive which haven't been well-documented, and none of them have extensive half-ruined underground catacombs where prisoners can roam around apparently at will. This will likely have to be revised to fit with Lore, or the Loremaster can vet them for you " This is what gave me justification, to request the loremaster for the prison information.

Not a later post.



There is no smiley face with his tongue sticking out

This is John.  Please stop bickering with and insulting the staff and just write a regular bio.  We told you when we invited you onto this server that you wouldn't get overly complicated submissions like wizards of Sulterio approved, so why are you raging?  The campaign world does not get rewritten for a newcomer who wants a god who hates magic to have a cleric/wizard.  It's like you're being invited into a friend of a friends house, asked specifically not to put your feet on the furniture, sprinting the to nearest couch, jumping up and down on the cushions and screaming at the dumbfounded host "look! feet on the furniture! hah hah! You can't stop me!"  Seriously, stop it.  Just make the changes to the bio. If it doesn't work then scrap the concept and try a new one, or if this is not acceptable, then leave.  Do not abuse the staff here.

[Dorganath]

Did you even read the 02-04-11 @615 am post by darkstorme? I guess not as you are still refering to a later post. I will quote where and what promted my request for research material. Since its apparent you are un-able to find the correct post. " There's also the issue of the prison into which Rajaral's been thrown. I can think of no city in Layonara with prisons quite that extensive which haven't been well-documented, and none of them have extensive half-ruined underground catacombs where prisoners can roam around apparently at will. This will likely have to be revised to fit with Lore, or the Loremaster can vet them for you " This is what gave me justification, to request the loremaster for the prison information.

Not a later post.

Sir, you need to go back then and read the quoted, highlighted and referenced passage I included in this reply, or simply scroll up to #4 above  As you can clearly see, it is the exact phrase (including your reply) from your response to the post you have accused me of not reading.

There is no smiley face with his tongue sticking out

Actually there is, but you need to use the lower-case "p".

[superdoofus]

Like dish wan :p

[darkstorme]

...you wouldn't get overly complicated submissions like wizards of Sulterio approved, so why are you raging?  The campaign world does not get rewritten for a newcomer who wants a god who hates magic to have a cleric/wizard.

Thank you for the intervention, Lonnarin.

I just thought I'd clear up this detail, however.  In consultation with the Loremaster on the submission in question, I was made aware that Sulterio does not, in fact, hate magic - not even on the level that Vorax does.

It was pointed out that Sulterio isn't at all on good terms with Lucinda, so a wizard would both be very, VERY rare and treading on dangerous grounds, but with extraordinary justification, it could be possible.

Edit: ycleption pointed out that Sulterio's dogma USED to indicate a hatred of the arcane arts, which was why I was also surprised to hear that a wizard/cleric was even possible.

[Spike]

It was pointed out that Sulterio isn't at all on good terms with Lucinda, so a wizard would both be very, VERY rare and treading on dangerous grounds, but with extraordinary justification, it could be possible.

//off topic

Sorry for wading in here off topic but I'm curious why Sulterio not being on good terms with Lucinda has anything to do with the justification (or lack thereof) for the wizard class? Lucinda is by no means the Al'Noth, just a human goddess of it and many deities who are considered enemies of Lucinda have very notable and powerful organizations of wizards (Black Wizards spring to mind).

//end of off topic

[Silvanne]

You all are so funny, what does the character submission have to do with me honestly requesting research material and your loremaster repling I did it in sarcasm. Then when pointed out I wanted the material to pick the best spot, as the idea behide writting the bio myself, came to mind. Instead of just asking him to refer a prison that meets my requirements. Then he used a later post to say " There see you had posted this request after the problem was solved and it wasnt. The first approval re-submit for editing is when I was directed by the approver to ask the loremaaster. And for asking him for what I needed. I was doing it in pure malice by his idea alone. I have proven I am correct and he sure might have attempted to malnipulate the posts to again, try and use a much later post. The numbered thing, I did that in my reply, not the approver. If it so bothers you that I have a back bone and would not let someone to falsey accuse me in real life and I sure wont allow it in a game. You say I was insulting your staff? Really, you call pointng out the truth, insulting your staff. So I guess asking any questions for help on research material, is sarcasm. Well as a published writter, and having a full vidi real life. I really do not have time to play your game of " Do as I say or else ". Exspecially one with fraile ego's, bais options and straight up childest ganging up. What poor lil loremaster can not discuss this alone. He had to call all his friends in and say make him stop. Yeah see I told my friend's, problems with indentpent servers. They always abuse the power they have and often justifiy their actions, as helping the community. Nice to see this was utterly and completely proven yet once again. Delete my account, ban me. The game is already out of my computer. This might be why you have such an issue with getting new players and keeping players. Curb the ego's and try and remember its a game about fun, your drama and freaking out about sarcasm is not only unjusitfied and proven as such, yet is utterly childish. Its a game, not rl. Losing your tempers, yeah way to much fanasty time, try real life.

 You will probably go and use your corrupt power to delete the post ~ laughes ~ like that new for a indentpent server. This is why I play games you must pay a monthy on, to avoid this drama and all your hurt fraile emotion. Oh and just a note, thank you to those who tried to seriuosly help me in this endevor. Yet the time constrains, added with this right here and with the bais treatment. I really do not have the time, to have a 10 to 28 day character approval system.

[Pibemanden]

//off topic

Sorry for wading in here off topic but I'm curious why Sulterio not being on good terms with Lucinda has anything to do with the justification (or lack thereof) for the wizard class? Lucinda is by no means the Al'Noth, just a human goddess of it and many deities who are considered enemies of Lucinda have very notable and powerful organizations of wizards (Black Wizards spring to mind).

//end of off topic

It is the other way around Spike, the problem isn't that the god in question is an enemy of Lucinda(She is by all means the Al'Noth, she just decided to let everyone use it freely). The problem is how the god in question views magic as a whole, which in the case of Sulterio I would have no idea of.. But Vorax is rather suspicious towards magic and therefore doesn't really favor wizards or such at all...

[Dorganath]

For the record, I called no one to "help" me or gang up on you, but believe what you wish. Also, I am not the Loremaster.  That distinction falls to someone else. Regardless, I hold no illusions that you'll actually read this.

This thread will not be deleted; that's not how we work here. It has, however, run its course and so I will lock it.  Further discussion can either end here or take place privately or in a new thread.

Farewell and good luck in your other endeavors.