Camping CNR

[Gunther]

I hate to ask a serious question, but was recently advised by someone that I might be violating the spirit of Layonara by my actions and that I was camping in violation of server rules.

I have read the rule on 30 minutes of cnr camping and I was stating that while mining in a certain area, that I time how long I've been there and how long it takes me to mine the ore in that area.

I quoted the 30 minute rule and that the further explanation stated that if one is efficient that they can get three rounds of harvesting accomplished before the 30 minutes expire.  I stated to this person that if I cant get three rounds done in 30 minutes, then I harvest two and then leave.

I was advised at this time that I was violating the spirit of the server and worse that I was discussing my violation in front of a GM.

I read the rule and thought that I understood it and that I was sure I wasnt breaking that rule.  I really enjoy layo and playing Gunther, thats why I always come back.  I want to make sure that I'm not doing something that'll get me in trouble down the line.

In the situation where Gunther is mining, he wipes out all the critters in an area, mines, then moves on to the next area and wipes out all the critters in that area, then mines in there.  Then he goes back to the first area, wipes out the critters again, then mines again.  Then goes back to the second area, wipes out the critters in that area again,then mines.  If there is time enough, he can squeak in a third round.  I dont stay for any further rounds and leave the area entirely afterwards and dont come back for at least a day, usually longer.

If i could get some advice on this, I'd appreciate it.  I dont want to be violating either the spirit of the server or outright breaking any rules.

Thanks.

[Dorganath]

First off, give this thread a careful read, as it covers what is acceptable in great detail:

http://forums.layonara.com/layonara-server-rules/276452-cnr-harvesting-camping.html

Second, what it sounds like you're doing is looping, not camping, as you are visiting a pair of areas in your run.  The time limit on loops (i.e. going through multiple areas repeatedly) is 60 minutes total.

To be clear about a couple of things, for either the purposes of clarifying a couple important things...
[LIST=1]

• The timer starts when you enter the area or set of areas. This doesn't mean that a run can only take 30 or 60 minutes. It means that when camping or doing a loop back and forth between them, the timer starts when you enter the area being camped or the first area in the loop.
  
• We do not accept the argument of being allowed to do harvest CNR in a given area (or small set of areas) a specific number of times before having to go.  For a while, there was an impression that there was a "three times" rule, meaning you could harvest CNR three times in a row from a given area or set of areas three times in a row before it was considered camping. This is only accurate if it is possible to do so within the set time limit.

I can tell you definitively that it is not possible, even with absolute efficiency, to harvest something like CNR ores three times in a single area within a 30-minute window, because I know how long it takes to mine a single rock and how long it takes to respawn.  By the time the third opportunity respawns, the 30-minute time will have expired. This even assumes the best-case scenario that there are no creatures to deal with in the process. Efficiency has nothing to do with it.  If the harvesting takes place over a pair of areas, then it may be possible to get three harvesting attempts in within the 60 minute time-frame, but again, it is the total time, not the number of rounds of harvesting.



Lastly, if you are curious to know whether a specific, recent run was or was not within the server rules (letter and spirit), then let me know the date and where you went. I can look it up in the logs.

[Gunther]

Ok, so what I'm doiing is looping then, not camping.  Its definitely within the 60 minute window.

I think I just got confused from reading a prior post, which states;

'If you want my personal opinion, the timer should start when you first start harvesting, and your last harvesting attempt needs to start within 30 minutes of the first. If it does not, or it cannot because of whatever factors there may be, then don't take another pass. So yes, this might mean that one may only be able to make one pass to harvest the CNR. It may also mean that you can sneak in a third if you're really fast and efficient. I say "may" because this rule in no way is meant to imply there's a "rule of three" for camping CNR areas.'

From reading that I just figured that I was camping and that it was possible to harvest cnr from the timer starting during harvesting to it ending after 30 minutes.  I would wipe out the critters, mine the area, move on, mine, move back and then stand there waiting for the ore to respawn.

I'm not concerned about the actual in game scenario, as we only mined the area twice and then left.

I was just concerned with being told that I was, in essence, a cheater.  Perhaps I was being over sensitive, but it did overshadow the remainder of my gaming experience for that trip.

Thanks for clarifying.  I feel a lot better about what I've been doing and that it isnt, in fact, cheating.

[Dorganath]

I think I just got confused from reading a prior post, which states;

'If you want my personal opinion, the timer should start when you first start harvesting, and your last harvesting attempt needs to start within 30 minutes of the first. If it does not, or it cannot because of whatever factors there may be, then don't take another pass. So yes, this might mean that one may only be able to make one pass to harvest the CNR. It may also mean that you can sneak in a third if you're really fast and efficient. I say "may" because this rule in no way is meant to imply there's a "rule of three" for camping CNR areas.'

It's a reasonable confusion and since it may seem somewhat in conflict with what I said above, the context there is that some believed that the timer started after you harvested once. In other words, you would have 30 minutes from the end of the first harvesting attempt.

To be truthful, we're probably not going to go down to the second on this, and whether it's from when you enter the area or when you start mining after killing the first spawn...this won't terribly make that big of a difference. However, my comment about how many times it's possible to actually harvest something like ore in a 30 minute period remains accurate.

From reading that I just figured that I was camping and that it was possible to harvest cnr from the timer starting during harvesting to it ending after 30 minutes.  I would wipe out the critters, mine the area, move on, mine, move back and then stand there waiting for the ore to respawn.

If you're staying within the same area, it's camping. If you're harvesting in two (or more) adjacent areas and you go back and forth, it's looping. Note that the key thing is actively harvesting, because if you harvest one area and just go sit in the adjacent area to wait out the respawns, that's still camping, as you're not really doing anything but waiting in the other area.  

I was just concerned with being told that I was, in essence, a cheater.  Perhaps I was being over sensitive, but it did overshadow the remainder of my gaming experience for that trip.

Unless someone said that particular word ("cheater") you should not make that assumption or accusation.  It's been common for people over the years to find each and every loophole or conveniently favorable interpretation on what is said (or sometimes not said) in order to get a boost in some way. If a GM comments on your practices, that does not mean the GM is calling you a cheater.  What it means is that the GM is doing his/her job in advising you that your methods may not be in keeping with server rules and offering guidance on methods that are more agreeable.  If this were the case and if it was a violation or exploitive, it would be correct to speak with you and ask you to change your tactics. If it continued, it would be grounds for some sort of disciplinary action.

Ultimately, it comes down to using a bit of common sense and erring on the side of caution. And if ever you are unsure, just ask.

[Gunther]

Well, what I have been doing is looping then.  The two area are almost directly adjacent to each other though.  They are seperated by a length of hallway and another seperate room, nonetheless pretty close.  Each has its own critter spawn also.

Given the proximity, I am pretty uncomfortable with an hour for harvesting, even if it is technically permitted.  I think I'll just stick with the 30 minutes or so that I've been doing.

In regard to the offense, real or perceived, it could have been phrased a bit more diplomatically.  However, we arent diplomats and sometimes what we say is subject to misinterpretation and gets misconstrued.

Thanks again for your help on this.

[Aerimor]

For you information, the area to which you refer is very likely a single area.

My guess is:

You kill a spawn of creatures, harvest two veins of XXX ore then walk down a hall way.  You do not go through an area transition (AT) and then you kill another spawn of creatures and harvest four veins of XXX ore.

If my guess is correct, then this would be camping, not looping.  

The timer on the ore veins is such that they can not be harvested  three times within 30 minutes.  

I hope you will take this as intended.

~Nimrod.

[Gunther]

Thanks Aerimor, that does address the exact situation.

I am likely just overly paranoid about situations like this, as I did have a GM (quite a few years ago) drop spawns on top of Gunther as a method of remonstrance, when he thought I was doing something wrong.

I see in the rules that this is no longer allowed, for which I am also duly grateful.

I'll take the verbal explanation any day.

[Rowana]

From LORE (here):

"Camping CNR materials is acceptable, as long as it does not last over 30  minutes, and you don't weigh yourself down silly, like 300 lbs when you  can only carry 150. If you are camping CNR GM's have the right to drop  whatever monster they want at anytime. If you can not run away, or fight  it due to being weighted down that is a risk you and your character  should consider before getting into a situation that leaves you  vulnerable. Think and play smart."

To be clear, this is up front stated that GMs are allowed to do so under specific circumstances. We rarely, if ever, do this. I can remember the last time  I've heard of it happening and that was several years ago. I would be  willing to bet I'd see it only on a repeat offender who has been  repeatedly spoken to about what they are doing by the current team.  We tend to  avoid this method of 'discipline' because it's messy what with limited  deaths per character and all.

I think that while there may be some personal challenge for some in the 'beating the clock', it really shouldn't be a feature of game play on Layonara. Now I'm saying this for the benefit of all who are reading, and not directing an assumption at you, Gunther, just to be clear. The issue of 'spirit of the server' was raised and I kind of wanted to address that a with a little more game focus. The reality is that if a character looks burdened s/he's going to likely be in trouble with whatever unsavories or hungry things they go past. Again the situation is pretty specific and no, the GMs won't be running around dropping dragons on people's heads willy-nilly but I don't like it when players have false information to work with either (as I'm sure is true for the flip side).

Regards,
~row

[miltonyorkcastle]

Really, Gunther, your wanting to follow the rules, and bringing your concern here (to this forum) for clarification is about all we can ever ask of a player. In the end, we're here to help each other play and have a good time, not get waterlogged in rules, which is why we're very happy to explain as much as we can up front, and will always happily answer the questions of those that genuinely want to follow the rules (which are in fact designed to boost the fun and fairness to all) and make Layo a better place overall. That's what the 'spirit of the server' (or whatever you want to call it) is all about.

[willhoff]

I found the below quote under a world policies sticky April 2009:

Unless taken to the extreme, the GM Team will not be applying in-character or out-of-character punishments to any groups caught looping or camping in excess, however we may remove the group from the situation if our requests are not respected.

In Summary
At no point will there be in-character consequences to the breaking any of these rules; no effects, no spawning of creatures, no going to jail or being tersely corrected by NPCs. There will only be out-of-character actions, which can range from simple warnings to banning, the latter being the most severe of course and only at the extreme abuse of the rules. Please do not associate in-character consequences to out-of-character actions as they are completely separate. iIn-character choices will generate in-character consequences and likewise for out-of-character choices.

I don't know if this 2009 policy has been updated or overidden but its in conflict with the Lore rule sighted by Row that creatures may be spawned on violators.

Just wanted to let you all know so in case it caused confusion down the line.

 

*Going on vacation so may not be able to respond for a while

[Dorganath]

At the risk of further splitting of hairs...

When a character is so encumbered they can hardly walk, GMs reserve the right to play the part of the environment.  Let's face it...there's hundreds of miles between most mines and the nearest point of civilization. It's only reasonable that that someone dragging themselves and hundreds of pounds of ore through the wilderness may encounter at least  one predator.  The GM should make it an opportunity rather than just dropping certain death on a character unable to flee. It can be argued that such a practice is, in fact, taking something to the extreme, as willhoff quoted above.

So no, we don't (or shouldn't) just spawn things on characters as a purely punitive measure. By GM policy, we don't do this.  But spawning a challenge and giving the character an opportunity to choose between his/her life and some hunks of rock...sure. Yes, this could well be an RP opportunity (and probably should be). Loading oneself up to the point of being heavily encumbered and crawling back to civilization is something that is discouraged on many levels.  For instance, encumbered wizards are not able to teleport.

Again, it's a matter of common sense and good judgement.

As a side note, I'd really rather not let this thread drag out into another "what if" and/or "rules-lawyering" thread. I think most people here have a very good idea what we mean, and as I have said many times, if there seems any grey area, either ask or just err on the side of caution.

[Gunther]

Whoa, hold on.  I guess I should have been more clear, I just didnt expect it to go any farther.

The GM in question didnt drop spawns on Gunther for being overburdened or camping CNR.

I was exploring an area, got past several areas of trolls, and wandered into a city area.  The only way out, at the time, was to go back the way I had come, through the trolls.

In wandering back, I found five mongrelmen, which Gunther wiped out.

Gunther then attempted to go back through the troll areas and got his behind handed to him.  Badly wounded, ran back to the city to heal.

I attempted to go back through the troll areas again, the mongrelmen had respawned, so I wiped em out again on my way.

The trolls were again too much for Gunther and he ran back to heal again.

I tried it one more time, wiping out the mongrelmen a third time (they were the only enemy I could beat out there).

On leaving the area where the mongrelmen were, just before the swamps where the trolls were, three berserker trolls appeared, marched in lockstep unison right in front of Gunther.  At the time, Gunther could fight one berserker troll (I shouldnt have been where I was, how I got there safely in the first place, no idea).  The three berserker trolls were not a normal spawn and did not move in any way remotely resembling a normal spawn.

Knowing that Gunther was dead if he tried to fight three trolls, Gunther ran back to the city, whereupon a GM appeared and stated that I was camping the mongrelmen.

I can see how it appeared that way, but I tried to explain that I was trying to get out of that area, but kept getting beaten up by the trolls and turned back, beating the only enemy that I could along the way.

I suppose it actually was camping, but its about the most ridiculous episode of camping ever.  The mongrelmen didnt have good loot, didnt give good xp, and there were only five of them in the entire area.  I can see people camping certain caves or other areas that give good xp.  But mongrelmen?  The GM in question refused to listen to anything I had to say, stating that he had been following me and never saw me attempting to exit the area, that I was lying to him and camping.

Anyway, thats what happened.  It had nothing to do with CNR or being overburdened.  It did lead, at least in part, to my getting frustrated and leaving Layo for awhile.

[Rowana]

Yeah, Gunther, didn't mean to imply that's what I thought you were talking about as the current happening. (He said that, you said that, I said that, she.... *winks* ) There was a statement in that post above about how GMs 'can't' drop spawns on top of people and it's just categorically untrue. I wanted to make sure that was cleared up. That was more the point of my post.

Again, I don't see it being an issue for players because this incarnation of the team prefers (and indeed as Willoff pointed out have been directed to) deal with OOC issues OOC and IC issues IC. Still, we have the option to chase you down with some area appropriate spawn pretty much whenever we like (hey no offense to you all but it's true). You don't even have to be camping or looping or luring or anything. It's part of being the environment and/or quest perpetrators. No one has to fear dragons being dropped on their heads for in inadvertently breaking a rule or something, we just don't do that kind of thing any more. It should be said that dragons coming after you for quest reasons should be accepted as possible though!

Anyway, to avoid confusion the cut off line in 'dropping upon players' is 1) is it area appropriate 2) is it pertaining accurately to a quest (which may not be area appropriate) or 3) is it really something that's going to do something positive as a whole. Camping, looping, (and all the others) are an OOC issue an as such we address them OOC first.

~row

[Dorganath]

Gunther,

Don't worry. No one's pointing fingers.  Most of the discussion that wasn't in direct relation to a question of yours was just filling in the blanks and informative.

[Hellblazer]

I found the below quote under a world policies sticky April 2009:



I don't know if this 2009 policy has been updated or overidden but its in conflict with the Lore rule sighted by Row that creatures may be spawned on violators.

Just wanted to let you all know so in case it caused confusion down the line.

 

*Going on vacation so may not be able to respond for a while

Yeah I thought i'd seen some post on the forum in the line of "If a gm spawns something as a punishment on top of anyone I want to know" From either L or Dorg, but I guess I'm mistaken or there's some special instances.

At the same time Dorg, from what your saying, would it be appropriate that the monster be infact area/slightly higher level than the char, or would a dragon be okay to?

[Gunther]

Well, I'm sorry I didnt stick around and say anything way back when.  I would infer (for what thats worth) that Hellblazer's post in regard to a post letting Leanthar or Dorg know of any GM dropping critters as a punishment, that I may not have been the only player to get whupped on like that.

I dont mind having a challenging fight dropped on Gunther, if he has a chance of winning.  Likewise, if Gunther was barely shambling along under an encumbering load of ore, I would expect things to go poorly and to possibly croak.

But under the circumstances, the three berserker trolls was a player-killer, which just seems like sadism to me.  I doubt its even necessary for me to say anything in regard to it, as the current GMs seem like a decent sort and not player killers who get a kick out of tormenting players.

I will say that karma noted Gunther going through the Misty Village recently, for something like the third time in a day, seperated by about two hours each time.  Karma pointed it out to me OOC and I had Gunther move on accordingly.  Nobody got killed, nobody got frustrated and quit.  It was well handled and I've been much more cognizant of camping since then.

[Dorganath]

At the same time Dorg, from what your saying, would it be appropriate that the monster be infact area/slightly higher level than the char, or would a dragon be okay to?

I think Rowana addressed this question well enough above (or below, depending on your forum settings).