Dark Elves and the Law

[Drizzlin]

Go to a dark elf city and read a law written about what an individual has a right too...then raise your human hand and see them cut it off!

Dark elves are monsters and not of the surface. When the laws of humans, elves, and dwarves, ect.. were written, they were not taking into account illithads, dark elves, dragons, beholders, demons ect...

On that note, the maker of the the first wagon probably also didn't take into account seating for giants!

My opinion on the laws of races and taking into account other races, especially when considering a monstrous race vs a "normal" one.

[Drizzlin]

In my opinion, any player of a monstrous race-character should already by default be "okay" with being attacked on sight by other non-monstrous race characters, regardless of whether they've earned some notability as a "good-one" through prior in-game achievement that not every PC or NPC may know about.
 
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I couldn't agree more, until I flip the coin over and look at the other side...

The other side of that coin is that a non-monstrous race player should be by default "okay" with being attacked on sight by other monstrous race characters...

You can't have one without the other...

This is not an open pvp server, therefore open attacking is what it is!

[Nehetsrev]

I couldn't agree more, until I flip the coin over and look at the other side...
 
 The other side of that coin is that a non-monstrous race player should be by default "okay" with being attacked on sight by other monstrous race characters...
 
 You can't have one without the other...
 
 This is not an open pvp server, therefore open attacking is what it is!

 
 
 By all means, flip the coin over where and when it makes sense, such as out in the wilderness where there wouldn't be a multitude of (unrepressented mechanically, but still pressent) non-monstrous NPC's ready to aid non-monstrous PC's being attacked by the monstrous ones.
 
 However, if Layonara isn't meant to have much PvP, one has to wonder why monstrous-race PC's were ever allowed (especially with starting alignment requirements that put them in oposition to most other PC's), and why subsequently the PvP Widget was introduced.
 
 It seems to me, PvP resulting from proper RP and In-Character reasonings is in fact encouraged by the systems in place, and should be taking place more often than it does.  The reason it doesn't, as stated by others elsewhere in the thread, is that everybody wants to play with their buddies, and almost no one wants to waste time with PC vs PC tensions on the PvP scale when they're on to play and relax.  The general attitude is "to heck with how things should be RPed based on races, and dieties if it gets in the way of that fun".  Which brings us back to the question of, "Why have playable monstrous races at all then?"  The answer to which is, "To satisfy those who enjoy playing bad guys, or odd-balls that aren't of the standard playable races."

[Drizzlin]

 However, if Layonara isn't meant to have much PvP, one has to wonder why monstrous-race PC's were ever allowed (especially with starting alignment requirements that put them in oposition to most other PC's), and why subsequently the PvP Widget was introduced.
 
 ."

Because when layo was created we were all dragon called and each had a connection, no matter the race to "fight" as one for the most part. We were all following the summon of the dragon, with of course our own interests mixed in here and there. Also, evil was not allowed without a CDQ, 1 year playing time on that pc. You couldn't create evil from the get.

The widget and changes for pvp, came as the changes of the game over time occurred. The ever evolving world of online gaming! Who knows, maybe one day it will be open pvp...

Also these changes do offer an alternative means to allow pvp, but were not meant for an open pvp system. In fact, the widget and changes are the exact opposite of "open" pvp. The intent behind the widget was to offer pvp without a dm to witness or approve!

[EdTheKet]

That was directly as a refutation of what I was saying, in part:
Your response was pretty clearly intended to say that one way you an Az'attan avoids Corathite assassins (and thus manages to live another day), is by using Divine Relation. So I'm not exactly sure how you can say you "did no such thing".

You take my reply to an example you gave, do not mention that example and then state I said they'd Divine Relation everyone to make sure they're not an assassin.
Referring to previous statements made by me is fine, but then quote them as a whole. Don't say "Ed said this" when I actually did not say that.

I'm not trying to beat you up here, Ed.

What you are doing is on several occasions attribute something to me, but when you do so put your own interpretation on it, making it something I actually did not say. Or you take something I said in response to an example which you turn into something general. I then have to correct the picture you're painting and clearing away the mist you're generating.

But if you're going to have that kind of a spell that cheap, then expect it to be used. Az'attan priestesses use it on people they're going to heal to make sure it isn't a Corathite assassin they're healing. And every Rofie seeing anyone suspicious at the gate will use it as well.

First, please remember that it is not a spell in the D&D mechanical sense, see LORE LORE: Divine relation
   
  Second, what you're not considering in your posts is the practicality of it all. If a cleric had to go around looking at everyone all day, trying to get a feel if they perhaps worship somebody that your deity isn’t friends with, you'd become paranoid. Getting an unfriendly or enemy feeling doesn’t immediately imply the other one is out to kill you.

And if a city decided everyone suspicious needs to be divine relationed by multiple clerics at a gate before gaining entrance in order to determine if somebody followed an evil deity then you can be sure that city's trade would dry up, farmers from outlying farms would be thoroughly annoyed to go through it every day, citizens of the city leaving and returning would be annoyed at the long wait and the clear and apparent mistrust by the authorities so much that the entire idea won't last long.

Also consider that the vast majority of people have not devoted themselves to a single deity and pray to whatever deity is convenient at the time. So they'd always come up neutral which tells you exactly nothing, time wasted by the clergy that would be on divine relation duty at the gate.
 
So, not thought about from a societal point of view? I beg to differ.

And now I'm afraid I have to go off topic.

Instead of coming in guns blazing, axes swinging, and stating it wasn't thought out, comparing it to other "ill-thought out spells", stating it screws up fantasy world plotting (implying Layonara or its plots are screwed up in the process), you could have also brought it differently and in a normal way like the vast majority of people here do.

For example "With this Divine Relation spell, how would that work in practice and affect daily life? Because when I think of it, I come up with this and that so how does that work?" and leave out all of the negative comments and labels.
   
  It’s not fair against the players who play in this world and make it richer with their characters, the writers who devote their time to writing up this world, the LORE team who puts it all up for everyone to read, the programmers, area builders forum admins and scripters who allow people to experience this world online, character approvers who review and approve bios and the GMs who try and make it all come alive. Having discussions and asking questions is fine, and I’ve never shied away from joining discussions or answering questions, but I will not let things like this pass without commenting.
   
  You may call it defensive, and perhaps that’s what it is, but I’ll gladly come in and defend all who come to our world for their fun and enjoyment as well as all who work both behind and in front of the scenes to make this all possible.

[Hellblazer]

post moved here

[SteveMaurer]

You take my reply to an example you gave, do not mention that example and then state I said they'd Divine Relation everyone to make sure they're not an assassin.

First off, Ed, if we're going to speak of mischaracterization, you just did so in this sentence.    My actual words were: "You yourself suggested that one of the ways Az'attans know who is an assassin or not was by using Divine Relation."

Please note.  This did not include the phrase "they'd Divine Relation everyone", or any of the other non-factual strawmen you have decided to construct in debating me.  In fact, your actual quote was this:  

Sure, they are hard to anticipate, but an Az'attan wouldn't be as naive to just heal anyone without attempting to check the divine relation.

Any reasonable person would see that you were indeed saying that "one of the ways Az'attans know who is an assassin or not was by using Divine Relation", which is why I paraphrased you that way.   And yet you insist that I am somehow misquoting you.   It is inexplicable.


You also appear determined to mischaracterize my observation.  I never said that it was logical that an "alignment detection" type spell would be used on farmers or anyone else who was a well known local, but only on strangers, especially suspicious ones.      And as you have already decided that Layonara is an intensely low population world, with a mere 8 million inhabitants scattered across all its continents, strangers coming into town must be, by logic, an incredibly unusual event.

In the world that you have described, travel is long and arduous, and even meeting people on the road is likely to be rare.   And so far you have not come up with a single reason why any of the many tiny fortified cities, like Hlint, would not use the spells they have available to check the handful of people coming in and out of their towns on a daily basis.    Especially mysterious completely cloaked elves with apostrophes in their names, when worshipers of Ca'Duz and the Mother of Darkness are universally hated.

I will grant you that in some cases the spell you outlined might not be as useful when the person being scanned worships no god.   But again, "no god" is merely another religious category, and one which is hardly likely to engender trust.      Layonara is, I hope you would agree, a fantasy medieval setting  - and infidels did not always fare that well in our own medieval period.


Now let me finally address your "off-topic" remark.   In addition to being wrong about my mischaracterising your statement (as I have already shown above), you are also of the belief that my observations about AD&D Detect Evil and Detect Good, and my assertion that these types of spells (including, it fair to characterize, Divine Relation) "renders any form of surreptitiousness nearly impossible to pull off", means, perforce that this is "implying Layonara or its plots are screwed up in the process".    And further that this "negative comment or label", "is not fair" to the "players", "writers", "LORE team", "programmers", "area builders", "forum admins", "scripters", "character approvers", and "GMs".

(Incidentally I have used direct quotes here, so as not to be subject to any further strained argument on your part.)

To which I respond this: if the President of the United States is expected to routinely receive questions that might imply that things aren't going quite as well as he would wish - and perhaps even that he might have made a mistake - without it being assumed that the questioner is "not being fair" to the People of the United States, Freedom, the World, and anyone else (including "players", "writers", "LORE team", "programmers", "area builders", "forum admins", "scripters", "character approvers", and "GMs" who reside within it), then maybe...   just maybe, you might be able to summon enough humility to do likewise.

Especially when the topic is about whether there might be some unanticipated side effects that you might not have fully considered in terms of play balancing a spell or two.


p.s.  If you persist in keeping things the way you are, which I'm sure you're going to, at least warn the GMs against plotting a "whodunnit" scenario with a disguised Corathite as the killer.  Otherwise that session may end up being torpedoed by a PC before its even begun.

[Dorganath]

Alright...

This thread has officially spun way off course.  What is likely to come past this point is neither going to be productive to the original point nor is it likely to not dissolve further into a dissection of what was/wasn't said, what is/isn't the subjective interpretation of one or more parties, hyperbole and scenarios which may or may not exist.

And so at this point, I am eagerly looking for a reason not to lock this thread, as I generally try to foster productive conversations, even if they go against the grain.

What I have read above, filtering out the more semantic discussion of who said what and what it means, it seems there continues to be confusion as to what Divine Relation is and even what it is not.

Divine Relation:

• is mechanically a spell, because that's the mechanism we have available to us through the NWN game engine.
  
• is not in "reality" a spell but rather a prayer that gives the cleric a sort of sense in return. It is little more than a feeling, in truth.
  
• is a way for a cleric to know how his/her deity feels about the individual in question, and that feeling is based upon the individual's faith.  When said individual does not have a strong devotion to any particular deity, the cleric gets no feeling about the individual whatsoever.
• is not any sort of "I win" mechanism.
  
• does not give specific information as to which deity a target follows.  Read this again, because it is pretty important.
  
• is far less powerful than meta-gaming someone's character's deity information through submission/approval threads.
  
• will not detect alignment in any way.
  
• will not detect intent in any way.
  
• will not detect a Dark Elf on its own.
  
• is not ever going to be useful to screen people from entering a town or city

On the last, here's an example to illustrate my point.

Divine Relation is, by its very name, a Divine "spell", usable only by clerics.  So if one was going to post a cleric at the gates, which cleric would you choose?

A Toranite?  Divine relation would give an "unfriendly" feeling from Lucindites, Ilsarians, Deliarites, Berylites and Aragenites, the first four being Good aligned deities.

A Rofireinite? Divine relation would give an "unfriendly" feeling from followers of Ilsare, Deliar and Az'atta.

An Aragenite?  Guess what? They're neutral to everyone.

How about a Deliarite outside of Port Hempstead. Ooops, looks like Deliar hates Toran more than Toran dislikes Deliar.  I guess that won't fly too well.

The point is that one can simply not read too much into Divine Relation, nor is it a practical tool for screening people before they enter a city or town, especially considering that most large cities have a presence of multiple and sometimes opposed deities within them (though we typically only represent the most prevalent one(s) for reasons of technology) and many small towns have absolutely no persistent divine presence within them at all. No matter how much "sense" someone thinks it would make or how invasive someone may think it is or how "powerful" people expect it to be, it simply isn't the case.

Divine Relation is nothing more than a tool that helps clerics properly RP their faiths and the conflicts their deities have with other deities, as we expect them to do. It allows them to make an informed choice as to whether or not to heal, raise or otherwise impart blessings of their deity onto another.

That's it really.

But even this is off topic.

So if anyone has anything else to add to the topic at hand, feel free.

If someone wishes to continue a debate on Divine Relation, please start a new thread.

[EdTheKet]

@SteveMaurer, you've just proven my point again with your most recent post.

I won't be drawn further into a dissection of sentences or posts. I'll happily address any concerns or questions you have, but you're going to have to change your tone and the way you say things/bring them across in order for that to happen.