Dusty Old Tome/Kingdom of Iliarial

[DMOE]

As I understand it, and correct me if I'm wrong it was stated here

http://forums.layonara.com/bug-reports/132082-dusty-old-tome-not-marked-plot.html

That the reason you can get multiple copies of this book and give them away to people below the level requirement of the book to share Lore.

Is it really within the spirit of the server, or for that matter sensible to give it to characters below the level limit required to acquire the book to allow them to enter the Kingdom of Iliarial?

Yes, you could claim it is 'teaching them' but as I understand it, the book has the history and the place is simply somewhere to enjoy a good adventure....so having already learnt the history reading the book....How is going there when below the level limit for the book learning anything new IC?

Of course accepting the quest from Iliarial that gives you 10k XP is a bonus to anyone going there.

So I guess my questions are:

Why does the book have a level limit?

Is it within the spirit of the server to hand it out to below 20th level characters simply for the purpose of allowing them to enter the Kingdom for XP and loot?

[s0ulz]

I'd add one thing only.

I personally think giving the books was not perhaps the best solution. It would've been better if the books were given out in the actual spot you can get them. Since sure, the required level is OOC, but just passing them out like they have no value to the whole experience of the Kingdom wasn't the best course of action. A higher level getting the book and handing it over -in- the same place would've been fine, since then they'd still gone through the effort of obtaining it.

I don't know however how exactly this was handled, so I'll refrain from any judgment. The prerequisite is there for a reason though... as the TPK showed.

[Dorganath]

I'm not entirely sure as to the intent or motivation behind the tome, though I am pretty sure about why the level limit is there.  

As I understand it, the tome is made so it can be traded in order to share lore...which is fine, and it opens up RP opportunities as well. This of course is perfectly fine.

But in terms of people giving them away to those who could not get tome on their own so they can gain entry to the kingdom...no, that's not what we want to see.  A while back, we found out that people who were not high-enough of a level to gain some scripted quests could instead join the party of someone who was and still get the XP reward from it when completed.  Clearly this was a short-coming in the quest system (and one that was remedied), but in addition it was indeed against the spirit of things here.  It was, simply put, a willful exploitation of OOC game mechanics.

So no, people should not give these away to others who cannot get them for the purpose of gaining access to the kingdom, for loot, XP or any other reason (including RP)...the sole exception to this being a GM-led quest situation. That's definitely something we don't want to see, and as s0ulz illustrated, the pre-requisite is there for a reason.

[Dorganath]

I want to amend my statement above and state that it is based on a partial understanding of the intent behind the areas and the limits given in being able to obtain the tome.  And by my statement above, I'm not accusing anyone of anything, especially if their partial understanding is interpreting things differently.

In either way, I hope to clear things up one way or the other, for myself and the Community, and then adjust things so that all understand the intent in the future.

[Skywatcher]

This is the first time I have heard of a level limit on getting the book or a level limit on this quest.  When sOulz mentioned previously that the level was 17+ to get the book I thought that moot since you had to be 17+ to go to northern Belinara anyway.  If the intent is to restrict the level requirement for going to the kingdom of Iliarial then we should have an additional limit like we do for Dregar and Belinara so this can be clear.  There is nothing to indicate to someone who is already above the level limit that there is any reason to not get extra copies of the book for others if each individual needs a copy to go to the kingdom.

[Dorganath]

Yep, and that's what I want to clear up.

[DMOE]

Well had you taken the people going to the Great Library as part of an RP event to get the book and then go to the kingdom, you would have discovered all the below 20th level characters couldn't acquire it.

[Skywatcher]

So then is the intent to be that there is a limit on characters going to the kingdom?  Is this now a 20+ only area?  Are there other areas that are like that?

[DMOE]

But in terms of people giving them away to those who could not get tome on their own so they can gain entry to the kingdom...no, that's not what we want to see.  A while back, we found out that people who were not high-enough of a level to gain some scripted quests could instead join the party of someone who was and still get the XP reward from it when completed.  Clearly this was a short-coming in the quest system (and one that was remedied), but in addition it was indeed against the spirit of things here.  It was, simply put, a willful exploitation of OOC game mechanics.

So no, people should not give these away to others who cannot get them for the purpose of gaining access to the kingdom, for loot, XP or any other reason (including RP)...the sole exception to this being a GM-led quest situation. That's definitely something we don't want to see, and as s0ulz illustrated, the pre-requisite is there for a reason.

I think that answers your first two questions if you read it carefully

[Skywatcher]

DMOE,
 
       If's can be thrown out all day long.  I am just trying to understand the intention of the team.  I am trying to figure out why this is such a big deal when it was obviously just something that you knew and I didn't.  I chose to get books in advance so the event wouldn't take an extra couple of hours since it was already going to take a long time as it was.  You act like there was some malicious intent to circumvent the rules and now we need to be put on report for violating the spirit of the server.  That's just not the case at all here so please just let the team state what the intent is and we can go from there.  Thanks.

[Mooneyes]

Thanks for the input above.    The book was given out but like said above Peanut had no idea that there was a level requirement to get it.  She had no ingame/rp knowlege about that.  So she read it and thought it very interestiing.  There was this Tome, can't remember the whole name that we read too and boy did it have a lot of curses if you in any way touched, dishonored or swayed from the path.  It sparked some really good rp about what not to loot and where to go and honor and such.  Again thanks for the info above and sorry if this makes no sense at all this morning.  It is really early and my mind isn't turned completly on yet

[DMOE]

Skywatcher.....Dorgy has stated what the intent is, very clearly in his post....

Do not get books for others so they can go to the Kingdom....

That was the only point I was making...Your first two questions have already been answered.  How does the team need to state it's intent more clearly than Dorgy's post?

[Chongo]

There are a lot of unneccessary comments being made here.  People should maybe consider the impetus for what they're saying before making judgements on someone else's intentions.  To say that something is organized for experience or loot is inflammatory and has no place being posted on the public forums.  Especially when that person was simply trying to organize a community event open to all within the rules of the server.  I'd also like to note that such open events are exceedingly rare when so much of the server is comprised of elite and tightly knit guilds or other groups that are always going to be vastly more efficient in the aforementioned experience and loot collection.  
 
 This event was within the rules, to the letter and the spirit of them.  On top of that there was much consultation from GM staff members and ultimately individuals were told that they could not go due to the stated level requirements on the server rules.
 
 Regardless, it's a fair point made on the book level requirement.  When I made the conversation check it was an arbitrary level that I deemed appropriate given the challenge rating of the region.  I'll be removing that conversation from the module and implementing a new system with the next update.  Thanks for bringing up what is, to be fair, a mistake on my part which can lead to misunderstanding as to what the level requirement really is.  I should have made it 17.  My apologies.

[Dorganath]

Regardless, it's a fair point made on the book level requirement.  When I made the conversation check it was an arbitrary level that I deemed appropriate given the challenge rating of the region.  I'll be removing that conversation from the module and implementing a new system with the next update.  Thanks for bringing up what is, to be fair, a mistake on my part which can lead to misunderstanding as to what the level requirement really is.  I should have made it 17.  My apologies.

Thanks.  That's what I wanted to know.

[ycleption]

I would also like to point out that we were given instructions by Clarissa to take the time to read the book, and had a generous amount of RP time to discuss its contents. To be fair, some of this was waiting for other characters, but even after that, every character took time, read the book, asked questions, etc.
As far as the giving the book in an attempt to get loot and xp, I assure you, there was little if any loot, and even the quest xp from ilarial (which was a substantial chunk of the total xp I got on the trip) was not really that much compared to what we could have gotten if we had wanted to go on a mindless bashing spree in Dregar... which, we didn't. This kind of trip, exploring interesting places and delving into the mystery of Layonaran lore,  was far more within the spirit of the server than the vast majority of the random trips I see on this server, and I'd like to thank Clarissa for organizing it, despite the TPK.

The trip was in general well-planned, although we got in over our heads at the end. It was a lot of fun to see a new (and fantastically designed) area. As I said on IRC last night, some places there I was able to hold my own and do decent damge to the enemies, in others, I wasn't. In hindsight I wouldn't have taken my level 17 there had I known the level would be quite that high, I really dislike feeling like my character isn't contributing much. But in the end, you live, you learn.

[Dorganath]

It seems the confusion came in the ambiguity between what level someone needed to be to get the book, the stated level requirements for the continent, and the level distribution of the party.  According to Chongo's last statement, the matter, in my mind, is cleared up, and the ambiguity will be fixed in an upcoming update.  I don't think there's any need to debate or explain further.

The only other comment I'd make is that I personally would rather see the trip start by going to obtain the books as a group and then going on the expedition to the kingdom, rather than having them distributed like free ride tickets.  Again, that's my personal feeling, as it rounds out the RP of the experience.  And yep, I fully understand that adds likely 1-2 hours onto the trip...though then that's also an opportunity for a second event.  

But that's just me.