Eschew and Meta magic feats

[jadewillow]

Does a meta magic'd spell affect whether the eschew materials applies to it? For example, with Eschew Materials I and an Extended 'Bull's Strength'. Would you need the materials to cast Bull's?

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Well, the spell you provide in your example doesn't need components on Layo as I understand, but...

Say one takes a Invisibilty Sphere; third-level spell, so Eschew I applies. However... One takes an Extended Invisibility Sphere, and it becomes a fourth-level spell, to which (if I understand correctly) Eschew I does NOT apply.

So, for an extended 3rd-level spell, you'd need components without Eschew II, as an Extended 3rd-level spell is a 4th level spell.

[LightlyFrosted]

Having both eschew I and Empower spell, I can confirm that using a metamagic feat does NOT counteract the effects of eschew materials.  I cast empowered fireballs all the time, and that's 3rd level + 2, for 5th... and I don't carry bat dung.

[Filatus]

Yep, LightlyFrosted is correct here... Stephen, you're eliminated! *hits the buzzer*

[DMOE]

What? No death ray?

[Dorganath]

It's in the shop for repairs.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Aw... That's how it SHOULD work, at least. *Sulk, sulk.*

[Dorganath]

No, not really.  It's a matter of applying extra power to the spell or expending additional energy to cast the spell.  The only mechanical way to represent that is to cast it as a higher level.  It's still the same spell, only with more "oomf".  Therefore, the Eschew feats do exactly what they're supposed to do!

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Well, I can see that for Sorcs, sure, but with Wizards, my understanding was that the spells had to be totally restructured when being memorized for use as a changed spell.

Though admittedly, that's just how it works in my PnP games; with the Weave, I can't honestly be too sure.

[Dorganath]

It's still the same spell, even if they memorize it at a higher level, so the component need is the same.

Here's another way to look at it.  Take Fireball.  Its component is a small wad of bat guano.  Whether cast by a 5th level wizard or a 20th level wizard, the component need is the same, yet a 20th level wizard is going to do a whole lot more hurting with his spell than the 5th level wizard.

Same spell, same requirements, increased effects. And yes, this is not the same as metamagic, but the parallel is there.

[Faldred]

Aw... That's how it SHOULD work, at least. *Sulk, sulk.*

Actually it's based on innate spell level, regardless of what spell slot is used to cast it.  IIRC, there are some 3rd level Sorc/Wiz spells that are innately 4th level spells, because they're Cleric 4th level spells as well.

[Asmodean]

Alright..  Let me ask this question.  What of the Epic feats of Auto Quicken, Auto Silent and Auto Still?  These feats REMOVE the need to cast the given spell at the higher level, thus removing the need for a component if that character is casting a third level spell while having the Eschew 1 Feat.  Is this just an extra boon for the epic level character who may not have Eschew 2 or Eschew 3?  With the difficulty of getting a character to epic level, I don't see this as a problem.  Is this aspect is also being reworked or at least looked at?

[Dorganath]

Auto-still removes the somatic component (the movement/gestures needed) of the spell.  Auto-quicken allows one to cast the spell as if hasted.  But you're still casting the spell normally.

Eschew only works on the innate level of the spell and is concerned with material components only.  Metamagic doesn't factor in to the calculations for the Eschew feats.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "extra boon" though. The "auto" metamagic feats don't affect whether or not one needs a material component.

[Primalfear]

Just a little Q here, isn't it Still spell (auto-still?) the ability to cast with armor?

[Pibemanden]

It is, with auto still III you can cast freely in armor

[Asmodean]

Wow, ok so that went totally over my head.  Dorg was saying the "Death Ray" was in the shop for repairs.. I thought he meant that they were re-working the meta feats to use components!  Nevermind!  The rest of your post now makes sense, once I changed my perspetive.  Scratch that remark then about the epic feats.