Evil/Lawful Rofireinite vs Good/Lawful Rofireinite

[blonde]

I don't actually think there is anything wrong with the LE Rofireinites that I have seen, in concept, just felt like... hm, that there are "real" LE characters, and then LE Rofireinites, which are a specific "flavor" of the LN Rofireinite

How sad would it be if there was only one type of LE character, or even one type of LE Rofireinite? And I could easily see an evil priest of Rofirein doing more harm than say, an evil orc living in a forest somewhere.
There has got to be varying degrees of evil, and good for that matter, but boy those things are hard to put into numbers and absolutes. Mechanics ... hard to live with them, can't live without them.

I have always seen Rofirein as being neutral for a good reason... or a good person in a neutral role, type thing. Benevolent, but committed to neutrality for the sake of order and impartiality.

Im sure that is how most good people would like to see Rofirein, but his alignment is LN. :p

[willhoff]

I think to divine/figure out whether divine Rofie law is good or neutral you have to ask yourself what is the end goal for Rofirein.  What is he in the end trying to achieve.  Is it Prosperity for all?  Is it lack of chaos i.e. Order for its own sake?  Is it to protect the common man through good means or is the common man a weapon or tool for some other objective?  Or is it simply a power struggle between him and another dragon (Pyrtechon) i.e. if chaos ensues Pyrtechon wins...or something else.

I'm guessing we'll never know the answers as we are mere mortals O.o

Different characters would react differently based on all sorts of variables including, alignment, their interpretation of "Divine Law", the facts on the ground, the players mood ect.  Thats what makes it fun, interesting, challenging to play a Rofie.

Just the situation in Prantz is puzzling and curious for me.  A question I posed earlier:

How can one be following the divine law of a god by puting people in prison for worshiping the very god that gives you that divine law?

Rofirein must be pretty humble.  On its face it appears to be an evil law that the Rofie's are alright with enforcing leading me to believe that "Divine law" is neutral.  Its about order and lack of chaos.  ALL Rofireinites (even good ones in an evil area) have to follow "Divine Law" above all else and in Prantz this apparently means putining your bro's in prison for openly worshiping Rofirein.

Right? or I'm probably missing something.

Edit:  I had to be the one to take this thread to 100, oops Blonde got me

[Acacea]

*Rolls eyes* I told you it didn't have anything to do with what I was saying, Trap-Springer. That said, alignment is about actions, not about belief, and Rofirein is certainly LN, not Good. Reasons don't matter - that's why a lot of "Evil" characters can totally believe whatever is for the good of all.

(I will stop replying from work now...)

[/SIZE]

[blonde]

Just the situation in Prantz is puzzling and curious for me.  A question I posed earlier:



Rofirein must be pretty humble.  On its face it appears to be an evil law that the Rofie's are alright with enforcing leading me to believe that "Divine law" is neutral.  Its about order and lack of chaos.  ALL Rofireinites (even good ones in an evil area) have to follow "Divine Law" above all else and in Prantz this apparently means putining your bro's in prison for openly worshiping Rofirein.

Right? or I'm probably missing something.

Edit:  I had to be the one to take this thread to 100, oops Blonde got me

Wuhuu I won the thread!

You have to remember, that just because Rofirein is the "god of law" doesn't mean Rofireinites ARE the law in the world. In some cities/kingdoms/areas they may have been granted leave to act as judges, police, guards, etc. by the ruler of that place, but they have no authority per default (unless I have misunderstood the world completely...). I would imagine that in many places Rofireinites have more of a counselling role to the actual lawmakers. (A bit like jedies *grins*)

With the example of Prantz, I highly doubt there are Rofireinites walking around arresting people. Those are Rael's own guards that enforces his laws within his domain.

[Dorganath]

I'm staying out of the core discussion of this thread, but I want to address one thing and I'm doing it here because of the full inbox issue.  Apologies if this drags things through the mud unnecessarily.

Alatriel was acting under instruction, however, so it was someone else I should have been saying, "What the heck just happened?" to. I was pretty taken aback, though, because while I will happily share the blame for the likely locking of this thread in my responses to moderation, I didn't understand the reason for it starting. If anyone appeared to be freaking out, it wasn't any of the players I saw, and I was pretty sure milty would have taken my playful jabs at him in stride.

Actually, no she wasn't acting under instruction. She acted after a discussion in the GM IRC channel. She also wasn't targeting you specifically, but the thread generally. It wasn't until your comment about letting milty use his moderator hat instead that your name was even mentioned. We could debate whether that was appropriate or necessary or not, and it will ultimately come down to a matter of perception.  

As should be somewhat clear by the way your comments were misconstrued by Alatriel and others, and by the way you have (apparently...correct me if I'm wrong) misunderstood Alatriel's intent in posting, I think that serves as a pretty good example of how one's perception of how a conversation may be seen can and will differ from person to person.  There have been conversations on the back-end related to this thread, and there is similarly a split opinion on the thread, its participants and the tone of the discussion.  

In the end, no one was censored, and the thread was not locked. It was a request for everyone to cool down and take a breather. As you can see, the discussion has continued.

All good!  

Carry on!

[cbnicholson]

A couple of things to add from my perspective. Yes, I can see All three Evil, Nuetrality, and Good as falling under Rofirein's umbrella, but with some caveats. This Knight is a good example of what LE looks like. All through Daniel and Bella's courtship he was there predicting doom and generally being creepy. :p (I mean this in the best rp sense as possible) He even performed the wedding ceremony after "counseling" which as I'm sure Alatriel can testify felt more like an inquisition. The caveat is, as discussed earlier, is that throughout this rp, the Knight in question was restrained in his actions and words by the Church and the Divine Law. There was a fine line that had to be observed and other than one point, which he redacted once clarification was given, the player did an outstanding job of playing an 'Inquisitor' (Disclaimer : no such official title exists, but if it did, Aesthir is it. ) Further points: At all times, it was believable that Aesthir truly believed he was doing the Gold's will and was justified even if it left a bad taste in my mouth.
 
 I won't go into "Good" rofies, Jennara probably epitomizes that side of it and most are very familiar with her life. The main point for Rofirenites is order and law. This has been hammered home time and again in the Rofie forums in many different aspects. Having the range of good - evil merely makes it more interesting.
 
 I would further add, there is slight difference in the focus between Clergy - Protectors through the Divine Voice and the Knights of the Wyrm. I see the Knights as leaning more 'good' in thier roles of protectors, but they are also traditionally allowed to be traveling 'judges'.
 
 

I think to divine/figure out whether divine Rofie law is good or neutral you have to ask yourself what is the end goal for Rofirein. What is he in the end trying to achieve. Is it Prosperity for all? Is it lack of chaos i.e. Order for its own sake? Is it to protect the common man through good means or is the common man a weapon or tool for some other objective? Or is it simply a power struggle between him and another dragon (Pyrtechon) i.e. if chaos ensues Pyrtechon wins...or something else.
 
 

 
 The Main point: The over arching goal imo is stability, law and order. The methods are up to the individuals.
 
 To address the Rofie-Pyrtechnon angle. Simply put, Pyrtechon puts a Rofie into an almost irrational anger. There is a reason why Daniel calls the other dragon god - Mine Ancient Enemy.
 
 

On its face it appears to be an evil law that the Rofie's are alright with enforcing leading me to believe that "Divine law" is neutral. Its about order and lack of chaos. ALL Rofireinites (even good ones in an evil area) have to follow "Divine Law" above all else and in Prantz this apparently means putining your bro's in prison for openly worshiping Rofirein.
 
 

 
 Prantz is a unique situation. Obviously, Lord Rael follows no other god than Sulterio, so the Divine Law is not ratified or observed in Prantz. Daniel would never persecute a brother or sister for worshipping Rofirein in Prantz, but he would remind them to respect Rael's dominion and ask them to stop immediately. The Courthouse still stands, but due to Lord Rael's decree, open worship of Rofirein is forbidden. This is not divine law, but Lord Rael's law never the less due to the 'ally' status of Prantz to the Rofie Church it is respected for the most part. It's been said before , but the Rofirenites are always trying to argue and persuade Lord Rael and his adminstration to soften this stance.

[davidhoff]

Alright I did some more digging and found some insightful information regarding the origins of "Divine Law".

A rare view of Rofireinite Priests drafting "Divine Law"

[cbnicholson]

No, no, no..we used crayons not paint!:p

[Dremora]

Lol is all I can say

Edit: And someone needs to hit mute on the one that keeps going: "oh yeah, oh yeah! ohyeahohyeahohyeah!"

[davidhoff]

Revisiting my original question:

What is the difference between a evil/lawful Rofi and a good/lawful Rofi?

Well, we know Rofirein is a L/N deity.  It also seems that there is some hesitancy to say that "Divine Law" is a good law.  So, we have "Divine Law" not being defined or codified; it's an unknown.  We want Rofireinites to be neutural and not really take sides, as long as there is order and stability.

Then we say we are going to allow L/E and L/G Rofie characters.  Well then, the was I see it played out in game is that Rofie characters will define what they think "Divine Law" is based on their alignment.  A L/G Rofie (like Jennara) will go into an evil city, with evil laws (kill the first born to sacrafice to the king) and say "wait" this law is not in accordance with "Divine Law" as she sees Divine Law, and she would oppose that law.  However, a L/E Rofie (like Aesthir) will go into the same evil city, with evil laws, and say "nice", I like the way this place is run and this King is my kinda guy and will enforce the law.

[cbnicholson]

Short answer: the means used to the same end.  Conjecture here but I don't believe Aesthir would got to Prantz and say that because in the end he IS an agent of Rofirein and the Divine Law is not sanctioned in Prantz.

[willhoff]

With the example of Prantz, I highly doubt there are Rofireinites walking around arresting people. Those are Rael's own guards that enforces his laws within his domain.

For the record...It's my understanding that Rofireinites do act as judges in Prantz:

From Dezza:

And the writeup for the Citadel of Rofirein acting on behalf of Rael is correct. It has evolved into this because of the Rofireinites agreement to recognise Rael as the official ruler of Rael.

In that capacity, when they sentence a fellow Rofireinite to prison for *openly worshiping Rofirein they are following and enforcing that law, Rael's law.  If that particular Raelian law conflicted with "Divine Law" they would not enforce it.  

Sooo....guess even a lawful/good Rofie judge would have to enforce the above law.

*Hypo that is merely for illustration and not probably realistic as most Rofie's in Prantz would probably show restraint and not openly worship as it would create chaos.

[Dremora]

Perhaps the example of killing firstborn babies is a bad one as it hasnt been explained why that would be the law and why a LE would follow it? Granted he is Rofirienite and since that Law isnt the Divine Law he doesnt HAVE to follow it regardless of his alignment; but why would the LE character benefit in anyway from upholding a law like that? Unless he could get some tangible benefit to further Rofirien's cause by cooperating and enforcing such, I suspect an LE would'nt indulge in psychotic laws that have no beneficial function to the LE or his Church. He most certainly won't back a law that seems to just create chaos and instability or paves the way for it; not the firstborn example but something like authorizing official assassination guilds etc.

So if the 'evil' city has several laws that are not in the Divine Laws, an LE may enforce them or he may not just like an LG but where an LG would not enforce any law he doesnt have to when its 'evil' or harmful to innocents; an LE would for the sake of Order, especially if there is a reason behind it that would ensure Order is kept. Like for example, slavery for those who can't pay their debts, homeless, criminals whatever when there is labour shortage or as a punishment for riots and the like; or anything repressive to the general population. It would be both productive and keep Order in the city, and by enforcing it, the Church of Rofirien will gain some measure of position in whatever imaginary evil city we are working with here through some political negotiation between the character (if he has that authority) and the government. This is to the benefit of the character's personal standing and prestige and the church itself as Law and Order is kept and now their church has a foot in the door to keep an eye on these evil-doers and maybe in the future slowly mould the law system through their own influence into something that more closely resembles the Divine Law.

Note its not the best example since some of the above may be 'too evil' (in some opinions) for a diety to tolerate amongst one of the clerics unless we assume Rofirien is well and truly impartial without tendancies to good/evil and cares only about Law; but its something atleast. The main point here was just to illustrate that the LE would enforce laws that may be repressive but are advantageous to his church's dogma and to him. So don't put too much stock in that example above please.

I believe someone used the chop the person's hand off for stealing example earlier in this thread which I can use here as a template. I can see an LG taking matters into his own hands if he discovers the theft before local authorities (whom he is under no obligation to report to) and tells the child to return the stolen item and then has a word with the shopkeeper to have the boy on as a helper until he repays his debt (value of stolen item), rather than enforce the hand-chopping rule. An LE may enforce it simply because it shows his church as willing to support the laws of others which earns brownie points and its the law and will serve as a good example to anyone else thinking about stealing (unlawful, disorderly act). That is probably a better example.

You can argue a LN may do the same, or an LN may simply recognise that the city does not respect the Divine Law, that he has no obligation to enforce its 'unofficial' laws (from his view) and may punish the child according to the Divine Law (if capable at the time). Hand the child over or simply inform the authorities of what he saw, perhaps after the child has escaped and give them a general direction to check out if the LN has a particular disdain for those who aren't following the Rofie justice system set-up.

[Gulnyr]

I got everything out of my system and took Harlas's advice in the thread, also if you read it carefully you will see that Leanthar was quite specific in what he wanted, I got the message.

I'm glad you feel better.  I don't think Leanthar was specific at all.  I mean, yeah, "this has to change," but that's not very enlightening.  If we're just going to roll over and lick boots because The Man speaks, we may as well give up.  All of us.  Things get better because people ask questions and point out incongruities.

This is one of those times where we have to accept what we have at face value, work with it and try to enjoy the game that's been provided for us.

At face value, it's not Evil.  See all the parts about aiding others and not making way for evil acts?  Face value.  But I don't care that there's Evil, only that no one will admit it was tacked on after the fact, instead trying to pretend it really does fit as if no one can read.

It's cool if you don't answer.  I understand walking away from the mess.

Ultimately I find a lawful good idea kinda boring as Toranites come close to it already though they likely accept NG as good comes before law (which is pretty much what your kinda going for, with slight differences); I'd much prefer impartiality and broadness in the Rofies so they stand apart from that faith more and have some division in their methods (LN primarily, LG and LE as extremeists). It has a sense of irony and I know Gulnyr will probably not like that (dont take offence, im not judging you, im just predicting your reaction from what ive read in your argument) cause it contradicts 'Order' but at the same time, mortals are very unlikely to ALL agree on something and do it the exact same way because we are all individuals and by definition of life, it is formed from chaos as are its physical laws.

One of the comments I remember about adding Evil and making a "change" is that Rofirein and Toran had been too much alike.  And that's debatable, I guess, but wasn't entirely untrue with the way Rofireinites had been played.  The prominent ones were LG.  What do you expect, y'know?  It has always seemed to me the difference is that Rofireinites will be more likely, in general, to stick to the law (whatever the law may be) and toss aside good or evil or whatever while Toranites would toss aside the law to uphold good.  That's an interesting distinction.  Both gods could be LG and it would still be interesting.  

Way back a few years ago, when a change had to be made, no change was really made.  LE was tacked on and there was a bend toward making sure it was the law and order part that got the focus.  A little too much, sometimes, making the whole faith seem bland and one-dimensional and, oddly, too open and messy.  "Law, for law's sake, overtime, regardless of which law is before us. Any law will do!"  It's not that I don't understand something was already written and it took a long time and no one wanted to write it again.  It's not that I don't believe that a change could have been important.  It's that one step was taken instead of actually making a real change, and that left it broken and weird, and no one will just admit it.  Honestly, I'm glad it didn't change more.  I would have had to throw away Jennara, probably.  

If I don't want to lose my character to overhauls, why am I pointing this stuff out?  Because I want things to succeed.  I want Layonara to make sense - without resorting to shoehorns and special cases - and to be cohesive so that it isn't ridiculed and laughed off the Internet when it goes big and extra-public.  I'm asking questions and poking at wrinkles because I care.  People who don't care will simply rip it open and leave it to bleed.

The point is that I agree with what you're saying.  It's just that it isn't actually written that way because Evil was added afterward. So it's not impartial and broad but leaning heavily toward Good.

Then we say we are going to allow L/E and L/G Rofie characters.  Well then, the was I see it played out in game is that Rofie characters will define what they think "Divine Law" is based on their alignment.  A L/G Rofie (like Jennara) will go into an evil city, with evil laws (kill the first born to sacrafice to the king) and say "wait" this law is not in accordance with "Divine Law" as she sees Divine Law, and she would oppose that law.  However, a L/E Rofie (like Aesthir) will go into the same evil city, with evil laws, and say "nice", I like the way this place is run and this King is my kinda guy and will enforce the law.

Playing a Rofireinite is not recommended for people with heart conditions.  It's not nearly as orderly and Lawful as would be expected, which is horribly frustrating.  Defining the law per character is pretty much the textbook definition of Chaotic, y'know?

Jennara probably epitomizes that side of it and most are very familiar with her life.

"Jennara probably epitomizes that side of it and most believe they are very familiar with her life."

Minor correction.  Carry on.

The Main point: The over arching goal imo is stability, law and order. The methods are up to the individuals.

I can't agree with the way this is worded. Did you mean it more specifically?  Something like "Methods within the restrictions of Divine Law are up to the individuals."
 

Simply put, Pyrtechon puts a Rofie into an almost irrational anger.

Jennara has been known to giggle at them and wish them a good day.

[cbnicholson]

Changes by Gulnyr

 Fair enough.  The Divine Law was exactly what was I was thinking when I wrote that, just forgot to put it in there.

[Dremora]

That then throws me in doubt of where you want to go with this Gulnyr. You are just looking for an admission that evil was tacked on for the sake of it and that Rofiren isn't strictly a lawful neutral god of Law and Order? Or you want it changed back to the old way where he was basically LG (with Lawful being dominant to good)?

Remember the whole point of this argument was the difference between the LE and LG Rofirenites, which davidoff brought up; if your looking for a change one way or another, probably the only course left to anyone that does is to take it up with the Team directly and talk it through whether or not they'll agree to a change in whatever direction you suggest. If your wondering our thoughts, the only clearer method would be to do a poll I reckon, most of us with an opinion on the subject have probably already posted up most like, though maybe some got scared off lol.

And more directly between you and me, I take your word for what Rofirien was in the past, you've been here longer than me without a doubt so you're more qualified to say whatever it was but ultimately, LG Toran and LG Rofirien and the two differences are which alignment half is dominant? Yes its different, I don't dispute it, but ultimately I just personally find the idea kinda less interesting COMPARED to one valueing Good above all else but supporting the law when it upholds good and one who upholds the Divine Law purely to thwart chaos and disorder, with variation accepted in the methods provided they do not conflict with the Divine Law (which in this scenario we assume isnt about Good more so than Just, Fair rules for society to abide by that all 'good' aligned dieties communally agreed on). Why is it less interesting? Because it narrows the variation you'll see. Simple.
As said before I don't mind what ultimately is decided, both are different, both will lead to conflict between the churches and some may prefer the churches play as unified teams rather than having sects and splinter factions. Both boost the roleplay, but I see far more fun for Rofirenites involved if they have some internal faith struggles as well (though presumably you dont and something about it is having the opposite effect?). Afterall, allowing evil and making Rofie LN in a strict sense doesn't mean there will be fewer LG submissions or LN submissions. LE is still restricted to experianced players anyway right, and now faith classes are restricted a little too?

[Gulnyr]

Regardless of where it started, the topic drifted.  Explaining how an Evil Rofireinite acts sorta requires an explanation of how Evil works with the dogma, and the dogma was written LN-LG, as Dezza said before.  So it makes ugly wrinkles and requires twisting and pushing and special cases.  Not all of the examples of the difference are horrible.  There were actually a few pretty good explanations.  All those with one guy as judge, jury, and executioner are right out, though.  That's not just my opinion; apologies to those who can't see Ed's very recent post saying so in the Rofi forum.  And a lot of stuff really comes down to defining alignment, too, which is always going to cause problems.

In the end, I think it needs structure.  When each DM can play it differently and each player can decide what is and isn't allowed, it's not really any different than, say, Mist's church, where there's a few ranks under a Chaotic god and church.  Mist just has different fluff on top, but it all plays out the same in the end.  I know it's a lot of work and I know there's a fine balance between too much structure and too little, but there are only five Lawful gods, and not even all of those really need extra structure.  It's not like the whole pantheon has to be rebuilt.  And it doesn't even have to be now.  Just stamp 'work in progress' on it and have it done up more clearly by MMO time.

Additionally, when there are too many struggles within a faith, it stops making sense that it is one church rather than several splinter churches.  People like to use the example of real life faiths having people with various opinions.  That's true, but you'll notice not all Christians are Catholic, for example, and they don't all look to the Pope for answers.  They may all agree on core issues, but other differences of opinion have pushed them apart.  Having a jumble of opinions under one, broad Chaotic church is far and away easier to explain than under a Lawful church.  The more deviation, the less unity there will be among people who believe there is actually a Right Way to do things that is externally prescribed by a deity.  "Heresy" is a word much more likely to come from the Lawful churches, not the Chaotic ones, y'know?  There are rules to follow and rites to observe; law and order must be obeyed; stay in line, march in step; all that good stuff.  Saying 'anything goes until you hear otherwise' is basically just throwing it all in the trash; it's Mist's church painted gold.

I don't have any desire to see Rofirein as LG.  I was just saying that two gods with the same alignment and with followers who do similar things can be different in interesting ways if you put some thought and detail into it.

[Nehetsrev]

*Emwonk wanders by the thread and spends hours upon hours reading through much of it.  The whole while he pauses time and again to simply shake his head in near bewilderment.  In the end, he walks away muttering to himself.*
 
 "Emwonk cognates alternate entities require alter flow perception, disregard ascended entities, flow joint Current directly - equal Emwonk's flow."

[davidhoff]

You know the law we live by. And where is it written beyond Camelot live lesser people, people too weak to protect themselves, let them die? Malagant: Other people live by other laws, Arthur. Or is the law of Camelot to rule the entire world. King Arthur: There are laws that enslave men, and laws that set them free. Either what we hold to be right and good and true is right and good and true for all mankind, under God, or we're just another robber tribe. Malagant: Your words are talking you out of peace and into war. King Arthur: There's a peace you only find after war. If that battle must come. I will fight it!

You know the movie right?  Well I wish I could have found a video clip of the scene but couldn't.

Not sure where this gets us or if it helps, but the scene came to mind when I was thinking about this topic.  It's kind of like Maligant is the L/E Rofie that was found out and kicked out of the faith.  Now Maligant is questioning Arthur about Camelot Law/Divine Law and Kind Arthur explains it to him.  

*shrugs*

[mixafix]

*tongue only slightly in cheek here but*
 
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