Hellball and Discipline

[jadewillow]

Just curious, according to LORE one of the side affects of Hellball is knockdown. Is there no save versus this affect? Does Discipline not apply?

Thanks.

[Script Wrecked]

Discipline checks don't apply to many of the "knockdown" effects of abilities and spells.

Regards,

Script Wrecked.

[Chazzler]

Hellball doesn't check for discipline, nor do those Ranged Touch Attacks of various creatures that knock you down for a round or two. Only chance to not get knocked down, would be to carry one of those Longsword of Dragon "Slaying".

That or with the ranged attacks you can try to raise your touch AC to ridiculous amounts somehow (one of the ranged attacks was +24 or more to the attack and so on). Or rely on concealment so the attack would miss, but there is still a chance you'll get KD'd even with concealment, so the dragonslayer's sword is the safest bet, if you want and can go that way.

[twidget658]

There are other items that have KD immunity as well.
 
 Isn't a reflex against sonic made against a hellball?

[Pibemanden]

The reflex save is against the sonic damage it does... There is no other way than having KD immunity if you want to keep standing after being hit by a hellball...

[jrizz]

Dragon slayer sword or I once saw a tome that would allow you to put KD immunity on an item but I have not seen or heard of one in more then two years.

[jadewillow]

So then discipline is pretty much wothless?

[merlin34baseball]

Only use I've found is in checks during a quest and in the arena against PCs with Knockdown. During quests and PC interaction though, when using it for checks, its useful.

Mechanically... not so much. Especially since I dumped about 15 points into it before realizing that it gave no IG mechanical benefits.

Merlin34

[ycleption]

Discipline as a skill is FAR from worthless...
The only thing is you need to put a lot of points in it for it to be effective.
There aren't tons of creatures in game that use knockdown (There are also other effects, such as stealing your armor, or called shot that use discipline checks, but those aren't as dangerous as KD), but those that do can be lethal to people without or with low discipline. In fact, I can think of few other skills that are as likely to save your life in combat than discipline.
Lots of RP use, as well.

[willhoff]

I agree with Ycleption, disipline does give in game mechanical benefits and is not a useless feat. Vrebel has benefited from having a high discipline with various creatures he has encountered in combat, mostly in higher level areas.

[Gulnyr]

The worst thing about the Discipline skill is its name.  There are too many different meanings.  Also, the skill itself covers too much ground.  

When I think of the word "discipline," the first thing that comes to mind is "composure and focus, especially in accordance with rules, customs, or duty."  A good guard has the discipline to maintain his post and follow his orders.  That definition kinda fits with the skill's anti-Taunt usage, but it seems Concentration or even a Will check would do just as well.  Why should avoiding name-calling be a warrior-only sort of skill?  Are priests not disciplined?  Are mages wildmen without focus?  Isn't it the cliche that the dumb warriors are exactly the ones who are taunted into rash action?  I'm not opposed to breaking the cliche, but if Fighters, in general, have lower Will saves than Clerics or Wizards, why should they be the ones most likely to avoid the "mental attack" of a Taunt, y'know?  Backward.

I'm sure if I looked at a dictionary, I could find a definition that I could make fit with the anti-Knockdown usage.  Without that, though, "discipline" and "not being tripped" don't go together in my head.  Avoiding a trip in combat (aka avoiding Knockdown) has less to do with discipline than with agility and balance (aka a Reflex or Dexterity check).  

I can't think of any reason that not responding to taunts and not being tripped should both improve with a single skill, since they involve separate concepts, one will-based and one agility-based.  Smashing them together into one skill (that represents experience and exposure, I guess?) seems a sad shortcut and could be applied to any set of skills gained through any training regimen.

It is how it is, though, and a mechanical, game-engine function to avoid those effects is all it is to me.  If you want to avoid being Knocked Down, you need Discipline (or a fancy toy).  If you want to ignore name-calling in combat, you need Discipline.  Easy.  As long as no one tries to use it to represent Jennara's adherence to "rules, customs, or duty," I can't complain. Jennara doesn't have an outrageous Discipline skill, but she is easily among the characters with the greatest discipline.  That's part of what being Lawful means in her case.

Yes, I have gone off on the tangent and have nothing to add about Hellball, heh.

[ycleption]

*cough*
Concentration is the opposed roll for [lore]taunt[/lore]

You're right though, that people use discipline for social situations often, where a concentration check or will save  might be more appropriate... *shrug*

[Gulnyr]

Oh...  Hmm.  I'll try to figure out what I was thinking, heh.

[Script Wrecked]

You're right though, that people use discipline for social situations often, where a concentration check or will save  might be more appropriate... *shrug*

We gotta be able to use Discipline for something... :p

BTW, "discipline" probably comes from the martial sense of being disciplined, viz holding formation, such as a line or square, and not breaking formation to run into combat with the enemy, where you could get knocked over by yourself, i.e., "disciplined soldiers".

This is probably where the RP usage stems from.

[s0ulz]

Discipline as a skill is FAR from worthless...
The only thing is you need to put a lot of points in it for it to be effective.
There aren't tons of creatures in game that use knockdown (There are also other effects, such as stealing your armor, or called shot that use discipline checks, but those aren't as dangerous as KD), but those that do can be lethal to people without or with low discipline. In fact, I can think of few other skills that are as likely to save your life in combat than discipline.
Lots of RP use, as well.

I'll add to this a little.

Discipline is indeed useful only at remarkably high skill values (needs boosting via items). What works to its detriment in seeming useful is the fact that once you reach high enough discipline/AC levels, monsters use their psychic powers to detect that and stop using Knockdown against you. So this halflived immunity is definitely worthwhile, if you can get there.

[merlin34baseball]

eh... I hadn't thought about armor stripping monsters but... when we faced a pack of spiders that could strip armor Chaynce was fine with a 25 discipline score... while a paladin (I won't name names... Alatriel) was naked after every fight.  Guess I'm getting to that point of having it worth something! So maybe discipline is good for something.

Merlin34

[Alatriel]

eh... I hadn't thought about armor stripping monsters but... when we faced a pack of spiders that could strip armor Chaynce was fine with a 25 discipline score... while a paladin (I won't name names... Alatriel) was naked after every fight.  Guess I'm getting to that point of having it worth something! So maybe discipline is good for something.

Merlin34

HEY!  You said no names!


Yes, Discipline is important.  Very very important.

[merlin34baseball]

Well... I didn't say Daniella... naked paladins are funny...

[lonnarin]

*cough*
Concentration is the opposed roll for [lore]taunt[/lore]

You're right though, that people use discipline for social situations often, where a concentration check or will save  might be more appropriate... *shrug*

Well, Discipline is strength based and Concentration is constitution based.  In my opinion, neither should oppose taunt as neither are will/wisdom based.  Being healthy or strong doesn't readily equate to being calm when taunted.  Perhaps constitution could prevent somebody from accidentally farting with rage?  But Gormungard has tons of constitution as it is, and if anything, he seems to have even more bouts of stinky rage than those with low constitution scores... hmmmm.