How to RP Diety Relationships w/ topsy-turvy Like vs dislike?

[lonnarin]

I just saw Leanthar's recent message about RPing diety relationships between characters, which I somewhat agree with.  However, some deity relationships make no sense to begin with.  For example, Xeen is Friendly towards Folian, but Folian Dislikes Xeen.  In this case, if a Folianite and Xeenite become friends, are they only half in the wrong?  Should all Xeenite clerics pester Folianite clerics with party invitations, and Folianites treat the Xeenites with utter contempt for their adoration?  Would two such clerics partying together get along or hate eachother in this case?

Next is the issue of Likes and Dislikes that don't make sense to begin with.  Like Toran the defender of the weak and of the common man who seems to have a mutual disdain for Prunilla, the patron of the peasant farmers and the happy home... Does this mean that LG paladins who are sworn to protect their homelands and the peasant farmers secretly HATE them as they do so?  Do the farmers gripe that the paladins should quit patrolling the outskirts and roads so that orc hoardes can raid their farms more often?  Deep down inside, do Toranite paladins fantasize of raiding innocent farmers, laying waste to their crops and burning down their barns for valuing agriculture above martial law?

Then what about Aeridenites and Azattans who by the very virtue of their faith must show loving kindness to all forms of life?  Even though they might hate Corath himself for what he preaches, how do they view Corathites who by virtue of Azattan theology are capable of redemption without exception, and by virtue of Aeridenite theology, are entitled to their life, and should be peacefully dealt with?

I can understand the clear oppositional gods like Toran vs Corath, Dorand Vs Grand and Grannoch, Vorax vs Pyrtechon or Sulterio... but it's the strange exceptions mentioned above that give me pause.  I would like to see more background lore and explaination as to why some gods hate the gods that love them, and why guardian paladins hate the very people they are sworn to protect.  How should an Aeridenite approach a Corathite when peace is all he should know?  Are there some followers of gods that Azattans feel are beyond redemption?  Those have been the nagging questions in the back of my mind regarding deity relations.

One more question, should followers of illegal gods who must worship in secret like Corathites be openly aggressive towards opposing gods publicly?  The smart corathite cleric I would think would keep his disdain under wraps for fear of being burned at the stake, since its a dead giveaway once he starts RPing his diety relationship chart.  What better way to hide his religion from the public than to pretend to be friends with the neighborhood paladin?  Trickery is part of his portfolio, after all.  I never saw Rufus or Chanda wear their deity relationships on their sleeves, which is precisely what made them such good Corathites.

[Weeblie]

Just a short answer here, as I don't have much time for a longer ones.

The strange deity conflicts are generally steeming from a particular event and less due to theological grounds. Could for example be so that to fight the evil of the world, either an old artifact of Toran had to be sacrificed or an old one from Prunilla. And if the party were of Toranites, doing the later would have been the likely outcome, although it afterwards created a huge gap between two otherwise good gods.

I did of course just made that story up now but I hope you do get the point...

As for a big clarficiation of what I consider, a good point of attack for hostile deity relationships, and this especially being true for evil/"bad" deities: You can be friendly, chatty, like any other close friend. But if it comes to the point that your "enemy" needs your help and your own god/goddess gains nothing from it, then you should avoid giving that aid and perhaps even try to push it towards an even bigger failure!

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

I'd wanna know why Beryl, a God purely of Craft from what I know of the Dogma, is "unfriendly" with Toran...

[Kirbiana]

I always figured that Beryl, being a little on the tricksy side in order to get sparkly things snuck out of dark places, didn't always see eye to eye with the stand-up lawful goodness of Toran.  I RP the unfriendliness more as 'pulling the leg' of any state cops -- er -- Toranites my little gnome happens to know and then completely disregarding their orders about where she can legally park her ox.
 
 

[Dorganath]

I'll answer a couple of these questions, though you may not like the answers.

First and foremost, the reason why one deity does not like another really only needs to make sense to that deity and no one else. I know that sounds a lot like "Shut up and do what you're told" but that's not quite what I'm saying. In an IC sense, who are we to know the minds of our gods? In an OOC sense, Leanthar and probably EdTheKet have their reasons for designing the relations as they have.  Some of these relations have been shaped due to in-game actions. Others are the result of a vast backstory which is not common knowledge among commoners, adventurers, clergy, players and almost every GM.  I can honestly tell you that I do not know the exact reason for most of the deity relations, especially the ones that seem odd.  For most of them though, they are simple matters of disagreement between philosophies and dogma.

Regarding some of the specific cases raised:

With respect to Aeridinites and Corathites, they're pretty much in extreme opposition.  Aeridin teaches the sanctity and purity of life, where Corath is all about corruption, death, etc.  Aeridin does not require his clerics to heal everyone, as death is a part of life, so an Aeridinite cleric doesn't have to go out of his way to heal followers of enemy gods.  He can...and an instance or two might be seen as tolerable depending on the situation, but as a regular occurrence, it shouldn't happen.  Should an Aeridinite deal peacefully with a Corathite? Sure unless there was no other choice, but that doesn't mean they should become too friendly or willingly and freely offer his god's healing and such to a follower of Corath.

Az'attans are perhaps the exception to the whole thing, as Az'atta has a dogma of redemption and all are worthy of such.  So that means that an Az'attan cleric may heal or raise a follower of an enemy god, but that such actions might be part of a process of bringing said follower to redemption rather than just a regular grouping up thing.

In both cases, intent aside, certain means of aiding enemies (i.e. raise dead/resurrection) comes at a cost to the cleric, and that too should be RPed and not just shrugged off.

I know a lot of people want to know "Why?" for those cases where it seems odd.  Unfortunately, I don't know.  And if I knew but Leanthar and/or EdTheKet did not wish the information to be let out, then I still could not tell you.  

If I had to speculate, which I do often, I'd say the reasoning behind not making the details of these relationships well-known is quite simple.  It either has to do with plot-level events in the past, present and future and/or it has to do with the fact that by exposing the details of these relationships a lot of other important and relatively obscure lore would be exposed as well.  Perhaps a few people in all the world (the whole Layo world, not just those few adventurers in our little cross-section) know just a bit of such details, some are likely lost to time while others occurred solely in the Heavens, where there are far too few mortal witnesses to tell the tale.

Believe me, I understand the curiosity of the community in such regards, as I share it too...not for my character's understanding but for my own. But then I'm like that sometimes.  Even so, I understand and respect the reasons why this information is not in the public knowledge.

[Varka]

Same playground but other topic.

You have the written Lore, history and common rules to play by which works for both deities and in some way races. Let us call it the theoretically part.

Then you have time zones, numbers of players and their deities, the moral , It should be fun to play the game.  Let us call it the practically part.

Further more and last you have updates. Like new resting time which simply works without doing anything and then you have the Verbal Laws like this one.

Who do you think will throw an IC and OOC friendship of 1 month or 3 years to the ground simply because and Verbal Law is stated? (could not find a better word than law at this point)

There is only one way which would maybe make that theoretically part achievable but a 100 percent guarantee is not given.

This is not written to anyone specific. It merely another point of view and few things to consider.

[Dorganath]

Good and valid question.  

I might also ask in return, why throw out 5+ RL years of lore and backstory, systems and in-game effort because our characters wish to be best buddies with followers of enemies of their deities?

But that's not really what's being said.  

To say that clerics of Aeridin and Corath, knowing the faiths of each other, should go on picnics together is rather absurd.  And if somehow this is backed up by in-game RP, then it was probably bad RP, unless for example the Corathite went through great lengths to deceive and misdirect.

Can clerics, paladins and followers of enemy and unfriendly deities interact and associate?  Absolutely.  Can they travel together? Of course.  Can there be mutual respect?  Surely! Should they be all hugs and smiles? Absolutely not. Should there be an ever-present tension? I'd say that would be appropriate.

And remember, the requirement of portraying deity relations falls most strongly on clerics, paladins and Champions, where each applies.  The non-divine followers of deities might be aware of such things, but may not care as much nor are they under the same indoctrination and responsibility to portray these things.  I think it's good if they do, of course.

[Dorganath]

Incidentally, this is not a new rule....it's always been the case.  

Divinely empowered characters are required to agree to upholding the dogma and preferences of their respective deities when they submit their characters.  Prior to that, it was just understood, but I guess enough people didn't understand that and so we added that requirement at submission time.

[lonnarin]

Can clerics, paladins and followers of enemy and unfriendly deities interact and associate?  Absolutely.  Can they travel together? Of course.  Can there be mutual respect?  Surely! Should they be all hugs and smiles? Absolutely not. Should there be an ever-present tension? I'd say that would be appropriate.

Very good point there.  It's not that they can't coexist, it's that they do so in a pretty turbulent manner.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

One question:

It's clear that the "divine" classes should adhere to the Diety Relations strongly, but what happens when say, A Toranite Cleric would meet a Berylite Jeweler, or say a Corathite scholar?  NOT devout worshippers of unliked/hated dieties, but "commoners" that merely respect a god for one reason or another...

[Dorganath]

Well if said jeweler or scholar or whatever was blatantly overt about their faith, then the cleric should act appropriately.

In the Berylite case, the cleric may hold his tongue or indicate distaste or whatever seems appropriate at the time and in keeping with what Toran thinks about Beryl.

In the Corathite case....well, Toranites pretty much view Corath worship as an illegal act, so again, the cleric should act appropriately.

That said, if the relationship is not known, then there's no reason to act any differently.

Also, remember that Clerics have that wonderful cantrip Divine Relation.  It doesn't tell specific deities, but it does tell the relationship between the cleric's deity and the target's.

A handy tool...people should use it.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

Well I have to say that there are a NUMBER of relationships IG and IC with PCs of not necessarily hated but unfriendly gods that manage to get along well enough.  Now I'm not gonna say that its right or whatever for an RP server to have such things ignored, but each situation should be looked at individually...  Sure, my Berylite Jeweler IS friends with a Toranite Cleric, and they are both very friendly, but at the Same time Shiff is rather open about not liking OTHER Toranites, and his friend knows this.  Now whether its BAD RP or not, I'm not gonna say, but each situation should be looked at first before some kind of punishment, retribution or whatever is dealt.

[Skywatcher]

I think another twist on this is the alignment and dogma of the specific deity.  For instance Toran is a compassionate god with an emphasis on forgiveness and restoration.  There is a particular Mistite who has declared that she would watch Clarissa bleed to death before healing her.  That's an understandable RP from the Mistite perspective but when that same Mistite was trapped in the bottom of the rift and needed rescuing and ressurecting a couple of Toranites came to her aid since it is in their dogma to help others in need.  The Toranite perspective would still be one of tension since it would be understood that there would be no recognition of the sacrifice involved and no thanks for the help but would feel pity for the one incapable of understanding the importance of that compassion.  So there is still tension on both sides but different actions are both justified based on the dogma of the deities.

The botttom line is that deity relations and personal relationships are very complex.  In RL there are lots of people who are friends that have divergent beliefs.  So it depends on whether the situation is asking your character to act against your deities dogma or not as to whether a particular action or friendship should be avoided.

[Dorganath]

Now whether its BAD RP or not, I'm not gonna say, but each situation should be looked at first before some kind of punishment, retribution or whatever is dealt.

Of course.

No one is saying that this is a cold, hard rule without any flexibility.  What is being said though is that some have taken that flexibility and pushed it far past its normal limits.

As I said above, there can be relationships of whatever kind between followers of unfriendly or enemy deities...the nature of those relationships depend on circumstances, but the context of those relationships should be colored by the deity relationships as much as is appropriate for the characters involved.

In your case, the Berylite would probably have far less of an issue with hanging around Toranites, but the Toranite cleric may see the Berylite as perhaps misguided or whatever.  He may not treat the Berylite as an enemy or even in an unfriendly manner necessarily, but then their respective faiths may always be an on-going issue of friction.

Play smart, people.

[Dorganath]

I think another twist on this is the alignment and dogma of the specific deity.  For instance Toran is a compassionate god with an emphasis on forgiveness and restoration.  There is a particular Mistite who has declared that she would watch Clarissa bleed to death before healing her.  That's an understandable RP from the Mistite perspective but when that same Mistite was trapped in the bottom of the rift and needed rescuing and ressurecting a couple of Toranites came to her aid since it is in their dogma to help others in need.  The Toranite perspective would still be one of tension since it would be understood that there would be no recognition of the sacrifice involved and no thanks for the help but would feel pity for the one incapable of understanding the importance of that compassion.  So there is still tension on both sides but different actions are both justified based on the dogma of the deities.

The botttom line is that deity relations and personal relationships are very complex.  In RL there are lots of people who are friends that have divergent beliefs.  So it depends on whether the situation is asking your character to act against your deities dogma or not as to whether a particular action or friendship should be avoided.

That's not Toran's only focus, but it's important all the same.  And often parts of the dogma of any deity may come into conflict with themselves, and it's how that conflict is played out that can make things most interesting.  If it's just shrugged off because one inconvenient aspect is simply tossed away or ignored, then that's not really keeping with the way things should be.

And yep, this makes things complex, and people should play it complex and not distill it down to what's simple and easy in all cases....which of course is the "Everyone is my friend" approach.

And as I said before, the degree to which people should take deity relationships and dogmas into account is directly related to the "grade" of their faiths. Champions are pretty much in lock-step, Paladins and Clerics coming next, followed by non-divine followers in order of decreasing responsibility.

[Varka]

Good answers Dorganath.

I am very pleased with the answers. Especially lonnarins quote from you above.

Another keyword: QUESTS, but then again you have answered it indirectly already.

As to your question
"I might also ask in return, why throw out 5+ RL years of lore and backstory, systems and in-game effort because our characters wish to be best buddies with followers of enemies of their deities?"

My answer is:

Of corse, 5+ RL years of lore and backstory, systems and in-game effort shall not be thrown away. Consider though the idea that a new player looks at Layos webpage. How does that person go by?

How many do you think reads the history book of xxx pages and LORE before submitting first time a character with around 100 words?
How many players actually read the history and law plays after it?
How many players did not cut the disadvantages out to have a more smooth and less conflict based character?
Some of the question can be confined by looking at the submission.

I am merely looking at it the practically way.

Would I have the ideal solution to this debate, heck I would share it right way.


This shall not be read and understood negative. I simply try to write short and sharp. Etc etc.

[Dorganath]

Yeah, my question about throwing out 5+ years of lore was rhetorical, but it showed the other side of the coin.

As for new players...we don't expect them to necessarily read hundreds of pages.  There are some key things though that are assembled and organized relatively clearly in a section for new players that the LORE team has spend a good amount of time making.  There are handy and relevant links to things like what's expected of divine characters, deity relations, etc.

I certainly don't expect everyone to be experts and masters of lore.  And I don't necessarily have all the answers to the RP situations that such things can produce, because they're pretty much infinite in scope.  I do however expect that people make the effort to act as they should, given the responsibilities and expectations of their characters.

[Acacea]

Warning: Long post! (Duh)

[/B]

I think whenever we come to saying "this is ridiculous!" when looking at a strange seeming deity relationship, one really needs to look at the philosophy and methods of choice when comparing two deities one might normally think went together rather well.

To use the absurd seeming example in the original post, Toran and Prunilla don't get along well. This does not mean that Toran hates the common man and wishes to smite the farmers. He is into uplifting those that can't help themselves and all that, not to mention he no doubt has a hungry belly. However, he is a man of duty, of law, of honor - and Pruni, while baking the most scrumptious pies one can imagine, is underneath the dirt of the fields, CG.

Imagine Toran and Prunilla in a party together. He likely adores her, because she's a halfling who is clearly not a thief, but warm-hearted, generous to those in need, and can seemingly feed a thousand from one loaf of bread. She's like his mother, only a few feet shorter. So they travel together, Pruni fussing over his wounds and making sure everyone is fed, etc etc, until there comes a choice between following the law to aid someone or taking things into one's own hands - Toran sits down to fill out the paperwork and Prunilla, in some very earthy no-nonsense way no doubt, just lifts the latch and says "go on, dear, I'll clean up."

Well sorry Pruni, but no matter how good your pies are, Toran is a man who carries a burden of duty, a man who understands that in order to hope that laws should benefit the people, one must work within the structure of the law to change them. To do otherwise opens the door to chaos, and with chaos comes the inability to protect the people and defend against evil. ...Yes, I'll have one more slice of pie, but no matter how lovable she is, from that moment on, how can Toran be anything but wary of her, knowing that at any conflict she may take things into her own hands and disrupt what he stands for? It is no stance against the common man, but her methods and those of the chosen followers ...

Likewise, from the reverse, Toran seems like "a good boy at heart," but with a tendency to take things too seriously; protection is good when needed, but a hoe is better than a sword and there's always that reminder. As well, his adherence to a man-made structure of law and order when dishing out his morality may make him at times forget the things that counts, or if not forgetting, delay them and make them unobtainable with his inability to shed his mantle of duty for a natural, toes in the earth, free-loving life.

Purely example, but the point is that I can think of plenty of reasons - and as a divine conduit of all that my patron stands for, I need to. I see everything from the perspective of the one who has his hand on me. I may like a follower of another deity, but if his and my god are at odds, there will always be a sadness there - we could be friends, if he were shown the truth. But as we travel, we may at any point come to a place where he may turn his hand against what my faith stands for - do I want to stand behind this person, even should the time come that it would be a blow to my faith? As a divinely influenced character, I might as well lay down my sword right now.

There doesn't have to be a 'yes' or 'no' answer to this. But the question is eternally there, when everything from the link of divinity screams "not your friend! Beware!" should one trust in one's mortal eyes? Do you raise him from the dead with a heavy heart, not knowing when this may one day come back to haunt you? Brothers may stand on opposite ends of the battlefield, it is no different between clerics when it comes time to choose between mortal family and faith. Clerics are ALWAYS choosing.

As well, we use the words 'like' and 'dislike' too often when discussing these - you may LIKE anyone you please. A priestess of an enemy of the faith may be beautiful, charming, and free, and you may fall in love with her and your heart may break for longing, but the fact remains that she is an enemy to the faith a hand of a god that endangers what you stand for in some way, and you must choose. It is unlikely that you can bring her into the fold, because she is a directly divine link to someone who stands against you. Perhaps she was sent to tempt you. Choose. You can't have both. But it's not about 'liking.' You may love her, but you must trust in your god to know what you can't. ...Or not, and throw away the sword and be ever after someone 'fallen' and bear the weight of someone who failed in the cause.

When first objecting to a relationship, make sure that you are not looking at only a single aspect of the god. Lucinda is magic, but magic is tricky and has a side of shadows, of things that one might consider unholy, of illusions that fool the senses and the mind. It doesn't matter that she is benevolent... her love is magic, and she believes that magic helps the world...but can you COUNT on her? Sure, some would say... others, even those that love her, know that her clerics' only love is magic, and some will do anything to prevent someone from endangering the Weave. Other deities do not share these priorities, some just understand that someone needs to do it, and agree with her way of doing so, or have other reasons of being allied. Friends in the heavens, perhaps.  

Prunilla  is the fresh earth of the farm, the celebration of the harvest... but married to Luck and the wind of fate, and half of their life is on the road, truly little better than gypsies at times, when you look to Deliar. How can halflings understand the trials of humanity, anyway? They don't take things seriously enough.

Ilsare is all that is beautiful, the sighs of harp strains and the graceful steps of a dance; she's also an elf, which can put people off right there, and though her followers believe that love and its inspirations are the deepest things one can seek to grasp and celebrate, one who sees them from the outside may see them as flighty and senseless, not seeing beyond gentle teasing to the understanding and empathy beneath. And again... the chaos of passion is a dangerous one.

Beryl is not a purely crafter deity; she loves her gems, the flowers of the underdark really, and one who sees her people from the outside perhaps know only the craft. But she is the mother of the Deep Earth, and the Deep houses all sorts of evils...will someone who looks from outside always see beneath? She is a mother of safety and sanctuary, for she protects her people in one of the most dangerous environments in the world, with the gifts of stealth and trickery as they seek out her shining stones to work in tribute. What swordsman can respect someone for whom "melee" most often means "fled to hide" ?

Some things may even be as simple as Folian being a ruggedly handsome man of the woods, most interesting to Xeen, and him being a bit disgusted that he brought the date that's puking on everyone. Gah. Get off, woman. Just saying... look at the broader picture.

My extremely longwinded and with too many examples points is basically just to say - Be biased. More, the more devout you are, no matter how objective you want to look at things, fact is that its been handed down to you that someone follows someone else who endangers your faith. And its not like two soldiers hiding together in a house, unseen by their respective generals...your gods are always watching. Make sure they like what they see, whether or not you know the reasons why...or don't, and risk losing what you are.

[Leanthar]

Now that was well stated Acacea!!

[EdTheKet]

Thanks all for the discussion so far I was out on a business trip, and have nothing further to add really.

And nice examples Acacea!