how useful is crippling strike for Layo PCs?

[jrizz]

CS works great for the bad guys LOL but with so many of the high level bad guys having immunity to crits and getting a lot of their badness from equipment and not so much stats, is CS worth having? Is it something that will help in the majority of encounters or just in a few?

[miltonyorkcastle]

It is extremely useful. You'd be amazed at how many things suffer from CS attacks.

[Pseudonym]

I'm inclined to say less than extremely useful.

How 'bout a teensy bit useful?

You've got your mixed high level party with (say) a fighter/WM, a mage, a cleric and a rogue. How many rounds of melee combat does this party really have with each individual monster they're fighting before the fighter/WM downs it with his/her critical hits? Or, more likely still, the mage or cleric casts a spell to finish the beasty off? One? Two? Three at the outside?

I can't think of more than a handful of encounters in my entire time playing Arkolio where I have even noticed my crippling strike having a noticeable effect before someone (by 'someone', I mean usually someone ELSE) kills the monster. By handful, I mean that pretty much literally, maybe 3-4 times in 3-4 years.

Same opinion with poison. By the time it is successfully applied (rarely) and you manage to successfully hit the creature (even more rarely if you're a rogue) and it fails the save (even more rarely still), another PC has already killed it.

Just my (second) opinion.  

[jrizz]

Milty, more details please

My original thinking is much as Pseud put it. It is about how fast a fight ends. Ending fights fast on Layo is key to surviving.

But in a recent battle with a group of melee characters the bad guys all had CS and that was what made us have to turn back and drop the trip. It was super effective but that was in long fights.

[jadewillow]

The bard spell Dirge has a similar effect. -2 STR and DEX per round for all enemies close by. It is nice in long running battles, but suffers from the same issue that they are usually dead before it can really start making a difference.

[Dezza]

Pseudo hit the nail on the head. If you have a mage or cleric in the party CS ain't very useful.

[Script Wrecked]

... the bad guys all had CS and that was what made us have to turn back and drop the trip. It was super effective but that was in long fights.

The other thing (after "long fight"), is they "all had CS" (they probably outnumbered you as well). The apparent effectiveness of CS is getting a multiplier effect from everyone having it, versus the "true" effect of CS as experienced by a single rogue in a diverse party (see Pseudo above).

Pseudo hit the nail on the head. If you have a mage or cleric in the party CS ain't very useful.

And if you don't have a mage or cleric in the party, then what do you think you are you doing?

Regards,

Script Wrecked.

[Lord Dark]

I like having the ability, it's fun in the arena and for PvP. Another reason why it's nice is that it's mechanical support for your rogue to know the enemy's "soft spots". Tod can say he knows where to hit where it hurts and actually do it in game with lasting effects while the fighter/rogue/WM's and others who do the same just took the levels for a couple extra points of damage. Otherwise, I don't see much help coming from it in a party, but it's definitely  my favorite rogue-specific feat out there!

[jrizz]

The other thing (after "long fight"), is they "all had CS" (they probably outnumbered you as well). The apparent effectiveness of CS is getting a multiplier effect from everyone having it, versus the "true" effect of CS as experienced by a single rogue in a diverse party (see Pseudo above).

Yep no doubt about that, CS is very effective for the bad guys since there are normally many of them all the same. The notable exception to this would be areas built by Chongo. He was very good at mixing up the bad guys so you would have a diverse set of challenges to deal with.

And if you don't have a mage or cleric in the party, then what do you think you are you doing?

The answer, part of an age old debate on Layo, is that you should not be going anywhere without ample casting support in your group. Of course the same cannot be said of the melee classes, as we all know a group of at least two casters can do all but the most difficult areas on Layo. Assuming high levels and all that.

That is off subject but the question was asked. Anyway it is clear that outside of edge cases (unless milty can shed sone light on it) and RP value, CS is not a useful PC skill.

Maybe I should post a request to have some kind of a saving throw put on it, like a reflex check. In it's current major use case it is very powerful (see Script's point above).

[miltonyorkcastle]

Ahhh, details.

CS reduces strength, and each successive hit stacks the effect. Combine CS with knockdown and you can turn a giant into a pansy (I've seen the really nasty mean giants reduced to a strength of three before finally biting it). Especially for someone like Wren that has DR, the decrease in AB and damage caused by the strength loss would mean that Wren can seriously tank against whatever creature he's fighting head on.

You've got your mixed high level party with (say) a fighter/WM, a mage, a cleric and a rogue. How many rounds of melee combat does this party really have with each individual monster they're fighting before the fighter/WM downs it with his/her critical hits? Or, more likely still, the mage or cleric casts a spell to finish the beasty off? One? Two? Three at the outside?

Yes, it is most useful in the longer battles, but even in the shorter battles, every little edge you can get is useful. Still, Steel regularly fights battles that take more than twenty rounds, and regularly fights monsters that take more than five rounds to kill with blades and weaponmaster levels. Let's say a rogue sneak attacks that baddie five times in five rounds. That means the creature is at a -5 AB and damage, which could mean the difference between a hit and a miss on the last attack against the PC fighting the creature head on.

it fails the save (even more rarely still)

There is no save against CS, but you do have to hit the enemy's AC. However, immunity to ability drain (so all undead and constructs, and anything with Undeath's Eternal Foe cast on it) will make you immune to CS.

Now, for you pure rogues out there, AB can be a bit of a pickle, as you well know. Still, a few hits on the big baddie can give your tank just the needed edge to finish the really tough battles without being overwhelmed. And yeah, if you don't go out with a true mage that can flatten groups with a single spell, it's super handy to have someone with CS. There are plenty of baddies that take many, many hits from my weaponmaster before going down.

In short, CS is not an offensive tool; it's a defensive tool. It is another of the rogue's party skills, meaning that it aids the party more than the rogue himself (with Wren's specific build, though, I think he can even get use out of it solo). CS is designed to reduce enemy damage, not to increase your damage. So if you're looking for an ability that will help end fights faster, then no, CS is not what you're looking for. However, if you're looking for something that has the potential to increase your party's survival, then CS is a good way to go.

These are all mechanics discussions, though. If it suits Wren IC to learn such a skill, then go for it. If it doesn't seem to fit Wren's style, then get something else. But you know that already, heh.

[jrizz]

Now those are position changing details

KD and CS make a great combo! thanks might make it worth going all rogue levels from here.

Immunity to ability drain negates CS? Does hiligrils amulet give you immunity to ability drain? I used it on one of my party members but he still got CS'd.

More info:
Hliligrils does negative energy protection - The target creature is rendered immune to all negative energy attacks, including supernatural ability damage and level drain.

[Dezza]

In saying all this I still believe of most of the specific rogue feats CS is one of the most useful and coupled with KD (If you can do actually make it work) then its a bonus.

[s0ulz]

If you can reliably land knockdown, CS provides very little additional utility in a crowd control sense. What CS is good for, is for long and grueling battles with hard-to-kill opponents, where the stacking effect of CS is allowed to accumulate. It's good, but not a top priority for any rogue build.

[miltonyorkcastle]

If you can reliably land knockdown, CS provides very little additional utility in a crowd control sense. What CS is good for, is for long and grueling battles with hard-to-kill opponents, where the stacking effect of CS is allowed to accumulate. It's good, but not a top priority for any rogue build.

Yeah, the only classes in classic DnD that have real crowd control abilities are caster classes.

Immunity to ability drain negates CS? Does hiligrils amulet give you immunity to ability drain? I used it on one of my party members but he still got CS'd.

I had thought the spell negative energy protection gave immunity to level drain, but perhaps only against ability drain from spells. Still, you can test it out at the arena with a rogue that has CS.

[Dorganath]

The NEP in the amulet does give these immunities, including to the effects of Crippling Strike, but of course it's as a spell with a temporary duration, and it can be dispelled.

Negative energy protection - NWNWiki, the Neverwinter Nights Wiki - your guide to the game of NWN

[jrizz]

The NEP in the amulet does give these immunities, including to the effects of Crippling Strike, but of course it's as a spell with a temporary duration, and it can be dispelled.

Negative energy protection - NWNWiki, the Neverwinter Nights Wiki - your guide to the game of NWN

Okay that is a bit weird. Do the big snakes at shandon's (outside fort gorge) use CS? I thought they did since when I wore a encircling scale my str still got dropped.

[Dezza]

A lot of the snakes use CS as well as poison too.

[jrizz]

@lord dark I need Tod's help in the area to test NEP against CS. Let me know when you can do it.

[Dezza]

...and I think some have called shot too, and there is nothing you can do against that except have a high ac.

[Script Wrecked]

And as Akata has [POST=1473922]remarked[/POST], even with AC 60, against ten CR 20 creatures, they will still hit you often enough to kill you.