Author Topic: Imp Whirlwind (Read 1073 times)

Dremora · « **on:** January 05, 2012, 04:23:13 pm »

Can someone please explain the difference about normal whirlwind striking everything within 5 feet of the character and imp whirlwind striking everything within range of his equipped weapon? Is it purely enhancing the range for polearms like spears and halberds?

darkstorme · « **Reply #1 on:** January 05, 2012, 06:59:30 pm »

No, an Improved Whirlwind Attack attacks everything threatened by the character, so everything within ten feet, regardless of the weapon employed.

Dremora · « **Reply #2 on:** January 05, 2012, 08:47:02 pm »

Hrm, maybe put in the ten foot thing into the LORE description because it just says it attacks everything in range of the character's weapons. Not exactly the most defined explanation

.
Thanks for explaining it to me though dark

miltonyorkcastle · « **Reply #3 on:** January 06, 2012, 04:01:41 pm »

Updated: [LORE]Improved Whirlwind Attack[/LORE]

drakogear · « **Reply #4 on:** January 07, 2012, 01:20:22 am »

Hm, often wandered that myself. thanks for the update though now there's another question... If used with say... a dagger? Extend reach about ten feet... that's one long dagger. O.o

Then again could say there throwing multiple daggers all around. :p

darkstorme · « **Reply #5 on:** January 07, 2012, 05:39:34 pm »

The idea of the whirlwind attack is that the attacker is striking at everyone within their reach. Since polearms in Neverwinter Nights don't mechanically offer any more reach than any other melee weapon, that means everyone within approximately 3.5 meters, or ten feet.

Myself, I see daggers as far more reasonable than, say, a spear for a whirlwind attack. Far easier to lunge and dodge around a fight with a short blade than to try and whip a spear around, stab, whip it around to the next target, and so forth. (It would be difficult to argue that they're throwing multiple daggers, since they only have one, and a "dagger" is a foot-long blade.)

Hellblazer · « **Reply #6 on:** January 11, 2012, 01:22:24 pm »

Quote from: darkstorme

The idea of the whirlwind attack is that the attacker is striking at everyone within their reach. Since polearms in Neverwinter Nights don't mechanically offer any more reach than any other melee weapon, that means everyone within approximately 3.5 meters, or ten feet.

Myself, I see daggers as far more reasonable than, say, a spear for a whirlwind attack. Far easier to lunge and dodge around a fight with a short blade than to try and whip a spear around, stab, whip it around to the next target, and so forth. (It would be difficult to argue that they're throwing multiple daggers, since they only have one, and a "dagger" is a foot-long blade.)

Hmm well unless you're called Jet li or Jackie Chan ;P

Dremora · « **Reply #7 on:** January 11, 2012, 02:02:35 pm »

True, though a spear is not purely for thrusting, its just what its meant to do. You can cut a throat with it if you swing it across someone's neck and it was really sharp. Sure its not easy but a sharp point traced across flesh will cut. Like what, a single pound of pressure is needed with a decently sharp piece of metal? Even if you don't believe it could happen, smacking someone with the end of the spear will do damage as well, especially if it hits the throat, temple, private area if your a guy in particular. Its gunna hurt XD and a strong enough thwack against the neck can break it, crush a windpipe etc etc.

But anyway, that aside. Atleast we know what Imp whirlwind actually does. Not sure I'll ever take it though, not enough room feat-wise. Need to get all the important stuff in!

Edit: Someone spinning with a halberd would work and hurt

(though not in the way the animation suggests but then again NWN mechs were never perfect)

drakogear · « **Reply #8 on:** January 11, 2012, 02:51:45 pm »

Hm, think I agree with Dremora in saying I probably won't ever take Imp. Whirlwind either. Especially now that I look at the requirements. Basic Whirlwind only reqs. 13 Dex and Imp. req. 23? Bit of a high req. when all it gives is +5 foot reach witch also seems a bit off.

Whirlwind can only be done with melee weapons, thus only effects those in melee range. I don't really know the conversion of RL feet to IG feet but being a melee oriented character how often would creatures be more that 5 feet away?

Dremora · « **Reply #9 on:** January 11, 2012, 03:30:11 pm »

Think of a tunnel fight. Normally you can only reach 2 ranks deep if you got a big mob to chase you in and normally only 2-3 opponents will be in a position to hit you (thus 1 rank). I would assume you'd be able to probably hit 3 ranks deep, maybe 4

Masterjack · « **Reply #10 on:** January 11, 2012, 03:59:45 pm »

Quote from: Dremora

Think of a tunnel fight. Normally you can only reach 2 ranks deep if you got a big mob to chase you in and normally only 2-3 opponents will be in a position to hit you (thus 1 rank). I would assume you'd be able to probably hit 3 ranks deep, maybe 4

I hope so when it takes Dodge, Expertise, Mobility, Spring Attack and Whirlwind Attack before you can take Improved Whirlwind Attack. That's 5 feats and a 23 Dex requirement to take. Most people will not be able to take the feat till the reach level 21. With all that effort put in I think they have earned the perks to the feat.

Secondly you do not get to use the feat that much any way as you rarely get surrounded enough to use the feat. To make it useful you need to have 5 or more enemy with in reach or you are wasting attacks. In Layo we normally go around in groups and your fellow party members are usually close, thus taking up space where you could attack an enemy. Now in the NWN single player game you are usually on your own and get surrounded constantly.

Dremora · « **Reply #11 on:** January 11, 2012, 04:42:26 pm »

Not true, my character has been fighting spawns alone for ages for a multitude of reasons. But in the case of the improved version, it sucks for what its asking. Now if it asked that and not only did it give you extra reach but also increased your ac and let you strike out with your first two attacks.. people would be willing to take it. As it stands.. hell no, and its out of the question for str chars, and not many dexers bother with whirlwind unless they are WMs as far as I've encountered.

mixafix · « **Reply #12 on:** January 11, 2012, 05:28:32 pm »

I think for the Weapon Master this is a feat really worth considering, whether it is to emulate the mighty swing around a large crowd with a halberd or perhaps darting in and around a tight crowded meleee with a dagger. I think both work RP wise.

As it is very unlikely other builds will strive for this it kind of allows the WM something to stand out from the crowd. (well the WM is trying to kill a crowd with this feat)

It has pretty demanding requirements and that is maybe the challenge or something that will send you scurrying for other cheaper more useful feats depending on your overall view at the time.

But when people are always striving for that little something that makes their build different from everyone else this type of variation offer just that. So I would say it is worth a second glance beyond mere mechanics.

Dremora · « **Reply #13 on:** January 11, 2012, 05:49:55 pm »

I think its the same principle as getting ripped off for buying something, would you pay an obscene price just to look different to someone else? Especially when there's a cheaper and only slightly 'duller' (if you like) version.
Not to mention its limited only to dex WMs unless people burn even more feats using great dex. And then you've the problem of a weak dmg output. Sadly one cannot emulate the mighty swing of a halberd if he has 23 dex normally; I dont know how popular characters with two main stats are on layonara but you'd need to be a fairly high level and be a WM (so you've got a better chance of scoring a crit and killing your opponents before that encircling mob tears you apart) and be willing to be ripped off to take this feat. My advice would be that unless it gets customized and improved, find another way to be different with your build.

That said, whirlwind attack in itself, very useful!

Though in hindsight, dex WM with nothing but str +3 equipment could make it work.. never tried it, +3 stuff didnt work on arelith and we didnt have a level 40 cap. Okay fine I contradict myself but unless I see it done and the character actually capable of surviving and killing his foes I remain skeptical :/ and I still think its too high for too little. So my advice remains the same even if my point about it being useless is not quite true

drakogear · « **Reply #14 on:** January 11, 2012, 06:28:48 pm »

Should perhaps be posted in the suggestion board but a few changes to Imp. Whirlwind that I think would make it better and perhaps more useful would be:

Reg:
Intelligence 13
Dexterity 13 (or at least something not so high)
BAB +15 (the first BAB in the line. +15 or +20)
21st level
Dodge
Expertise
Mobility
Spring Attack
Whirlwind Attack

Specifics: The character performs two full attack actions, rolling two melee attacks at the full base attack modifier against all opponents within 5 feet. (or 10)

By Imp this allows them to strike all around twice instead of just once like normal Whirlwind. Though not sure if adding the second strike to the feat could be done.

Masterjack · « **Reply #15 on:** January 12, 2012, 07:26:21 pm »

I do believe that the reason it is so hard to get Improved Whirlwind is that they do not want people to be able to get both Improved Whirlwind and Devastating Critical ( LORE: Devastating Critical ). You can imagine what chaos and mayhem one could inflict with both of those feats. Too over powered in my opinion and I have a character who could benefit from this proposed change.

Dremora · « **Reply #16 on:** January 12, 2012, 07:29:22 pm »

Is that even possible with that dex requirement and the dev crit str req (even the non-layo one)?

Though lets be fair, dev crit is the equivelant to implode, or wail of banshee to most people that dont have death ward (clerics only right?). Hell in PvP standard whirlwinding with dev crit would work the same as imp whirlwind, how many characters stand out of base to base contact? You'd charge an archer/mage and unload all your attacks, if you got charged by melee people whirlwind standard would work just fine.. and if you used the extended range to clear out mobs of NPCs.. isn't that exactly what wail of the banshee and implode do? Granted wail dont work on undead.. dev crit dont work on crit immune creatures. So if that was their plan, I guess they didnt really think it through.

wild_down_under · « **Reply #17 on:** January 12, 2012, 08:32:44 pm »

Hmmmm... I don't think Devastating Crit is equivalent to Wail, Power Word, or Weird. Why?

The reason is Devastating Crit is 'limitless.' A melee character can continue to use that over and over and over again without having to rest. With the spells, a spellcaster has like 6-8 of those death spells only. Then, another 25 minutes rest before they recover. So, in my opinion, Devastating Crit is a lot more powerful.

Dremora · « **Reply #18 on:** January 12, 2012, 09:18:35 pm »

Presuming you can get close enough to the creature and breach its AC along with things like concealment and epic dodge coming into play as well as their fort save, wail ignores all those other things totally and combined with haste can be spammed like dev crit. Also you need to actually roll high enough to score a crit against whatever your fighting and that means breaching its AC, if its another player and they've built their char solely to get smacked about, then yes they're at serious risk but thats their own weakness in the build, but no more than a high Ac char when the blows actually land. Wail.. just aim in the general direction and auto hit and the enemy must make a save. So its limitless, yes, but that does not make it omnipotent. You can't have a shot at one instant-death ability and ignore the others. They are ALL overpowered or none are. Note power word and wierd are weaker forms. Infact wierd is practically asking to fail.. but if it doesnt, you die to a single dice roll. So if a mage can pull it out of the hat, why cant a melee char? Not to mention mages start chugging these abilities out way before epic.

So yes, you may in your opinion consider it more powerful, but its only more powerful in certain situations.. and if its only more powerful in certain situations, then you can use the same argument for whenever the situation favours a wail or implosion (i.e highly buffed chars and so long as you can click on the enemy model and successfully cast, they MUST take a fort checkand pass, else its game over).

willhoff · « **Reply #19 on:** January 12, 2012, 09:34:23 pm »

One interesting thing about whirlwind attack is that while performing it you can't be flanked i.e. sneak attacked. In the field this seems to work most of the time but I have noticed some sneaks get in probably because I'm not in whirlwind mode or coming out of it.

Same holds true for Imp. Whirlwind just that you have a larger attack range.

Seems a nice rp and mechanical feat for a dex based high ac fighter...who's working toward epic dodge.