Lawful-Half Giant

[Eyvind]

I wrote this background story (some parts omitted) for a Lawful Neutral Half-Giant Monk before I came to know that it was forbidden. At this point I would like to know if this story is true to the lore of Layonara, and if my rationale for a Lawful Neutral alignment (not necessarily Monk, mind you, I omitted those parts from the story) at the end.

(Also not exactly sure if this is the right place to post, but I'm reasonably certain it's close enough.)

I don't want to hear that the only reasons are (1) that Half-Giant Monks are overpowered and (2) it would be tedious to make technically possible. I understand these two reasons and I am not arguing or looking for reasons for this to be allowed. I want to know what the lore reasons for not allowing it are.

I appreciate your time and apologize for any defensiveness this might unintentially invoke.

_____


A darker than normal day in Apreal of 1418 and a giantess approached a farmstead on the outskirts of the Gloom Woods. The lit windows and the dark forest behind it made for an isolated but cozy appearance, something the giant cared little for. She tromped on across the field.

Well at the house, she leaned down and looked through one of the lit windows. Inside she saw a man, a woman, and a young girl eating a meager meal at a small table. The girl sat across from the window, consequently she saw the giant first and froze, eyes wide, mid-chew. Several seconds passed before the mother noticed her daughter's rigid attitude, she glanced out the window and seeing nothing unusual she sighed and began an absent-minded drone of reassurances. The father hardly reacted until he heard the loud crash and splintering that effectively interrupted the drone of his wife, putting her in the frozen state quite similar to that of her daughter, who in turn fell out of her chair in terror. The father -- Jack was his name -- stood up, grabbed the hatchet that had fallen from the wall, and began moving toward the sound of a giant trying to fit through a human door.

Jack approached the door and was promptly helped through it by the arm that stretched in after him. The woman and girl could do little but watch from the window as their husband and father was dragged off in the direction of the Brech Mountains. What happened to them is a bit uncertain. After a corner of the house caved in, it is likely they moved to one of the small towns nearby, or perhaps Fort Vehl.

It would, however, be a good guess that they survived since shortly after the incident at the farmstead, a small the community of giants on the outskirts of the Ulgrid Kingdom was attacked by a reasonably wrathful -- but short-lived -- mob. Incidentally, this community is where Gora -- the giantess -- had dragged Jack.

To explain the reasoning behind Gora's actions would be futile, and to explain Jack's attitude toward the whole ordeal would be equally so, for he -- and this is no lie -- welcomed the change in scenery. Granted, it took a few days, but he came to enjoy spending each day taking care not to be crushed, taking care not to be ripped apart, taking care not to be eaten, and not having to plant plants, wait for plants to grow, harvest plants, prepare for more planting of plants, plant plants, wait, and so on.

A year later John -- whom everyone but Jack called something else, sounded something like Hug -- was born to Gora, details omitted. By this time Jack had become an honorary giant and was allowed to roam essentially wherever he wanted to roam. As John grew up, Jack took him on walks about the foothills, along the Taro River, and occasionally farther. They developed a tight bond, at least as tight as any normal father-son relationship, and the recollections of his former life faded from Jack's mind.

In 1439, shortly after John's tenth birthday in Apreal, the giants once again came under fierce attack. The giants held their ground for several days but as there seemed to be no end to the attacks, they began grumbling and hastily sought a scapegoat. The most natural and easiest choice would have been Jack. John assumed as much, and was prepared to defend his father from the other giants. A group of them came but they were in fact seeking John, not Jack, so when John stood ready to face them they shrugged and grabbed him. They took the struggling John to the Tora and threw him in. Uncertain what happened to Jack, or the rest of the giants for that matter.

John's fate was more certain, at least for the time being. He was swept downstream to the sea and was thereafter washed far into it. If chance had had her say, he would have died too, but a couple of fishermen netted the half-dead half-giant and essentially saved him. They took him to their shack a few miles west of Fort Vehl which they threw him into after tying his hands and feet.

The shack was cluttered with fishing paraphernalia. There were also quite a number of fish about, some rotting on the ground, some drying on a stand. All things considered, there was little open ground left for John to fall onto as he was thrown in, and as it turns out he missed the little there was. He hit his head on something hard and unyielding, and was unconscious for the better part of the night. He then slept off his daze, shock, and confusion through the following day. The fishermen came back that evening and jostled him out of the shack only to dump him in a freshly-dug pit some ways inland. They said nothing, they didn't even chortle. They waited just long enough to make sure they hadn't broken John's neck, then they left.

The next day, John had regained a considerable portion of his aggressiveness and loudly challenged the fishermen. When they didn't respond, he challenged them in giant as well, just to be on the safe side. The second day in the pit there was cause for celebration: John had managed to free his hands and it also rained. It didn't quite sate his thirst, but it sufficed. Days passed -- a few of which brought more rain -- with no sight of the fishermen. Some more days passed -- the rain was becoming a nuisance -- and finally the fishermen came and though an explanation would have been nice, they did bring some food. The quite small hunk of meat, and more like it over the coming years, was enough to keep John alive, but little more.

As alluded, John was kept in the pit for many years. During these years he was kept as barely alive as the mysterious fishermen decided. John's aggressive behavior waxed and waned and as the first few years passed, though the bouts of aggression grew further and further apart. By the end of two years, he had regressed into a quiet loathing of the fishermen he saw so little of. He alternated between sitting in the middle of his pit and pacing around it. Though his mental capabilities were not particularly sharp, he could on an abstract level ponder his predicament and eventual fate.

As he grew older, he realized the futility of struggling, that doing so would only diminish him more than his meager sustenance already was. He learned to sit still -- consciously -- for longer periods of time, at first not more than several minutes but as his seemingly endless time in the pit came and went, he learned to control his impatience and restlessness and took the first step to developing a significant patience.

Of course, it was not a completely smooth and sober experience. He did occasionally convulse mentally and scream some obscenities in Giant, he would hammer at the earthen walls with his hands and head, take jumps for the surface, and fall back down to the cold and uneven ground. He would compose himself and often fall asleep from the exertions and malnutrition. He would wake up, regretting his outburst with an aching stomach and intense hunger. Each time he told himself that it was unnecessary to intensify his suffering with uncontrolled behavior -- perhaps not in so many words, but it was a concept that made much sense to him.

He turned 18 in Apreal of 1437. By this time he had lost all track of time. He had all but mastered a level of self-control all but nonexistent among giants and even most humans. He was, however, growing weary of his eternal existence within those earthen confines. He began contemplating methods of escape. He was no great thinker, however, despite countless hours pensively spent. Nevertheless, he did get ideas. One he was particularly proud of involved making a rope out of his ragged and threadbare clothes, which hadn't been much to begin with. He eventually managed to create a decent rope, and grinning with joy he realized it would be of no use to him. He tried throwing it up above the edge of the pit, but there was no chance of it getting stuck on anything that could bear his weight. Ideas such as this occupied him for quite some time. In his 21st year, while executing yet another futile plan, he realize that the edge of the pit was now just within reach. It seemed the fishermen had not been Promethean enough to accommodate the pit for the growth of a young half-giant -- and perhaps erosion.

John began jumping to get a good grip on the worn edge of the pit. He did manage a number of times, but he was simply too fatigued to pull himself out. To make a drawn-out story shorter by a few sentences, he did manage eventually. It was a calm night, the stars were peeking out from behind nothingness, and various insects were making various insect-like noises. He looked around and came to the conclusion that he was utterly lost. He sat down to catch his breath for a moment.

After a moment he stood up, he felt a slight breeze and decided to follow it. He came upon a well-traveled road and followed it in an arbitrary direction. Eventually he saw what he soon found out was Fort Vehl. John now, for the first time since coming of age, had reason to use his name. He didn't think too much on the matter, and began introducing himself as Hugg, his Giant name. This and similar realizations forced upon him by the world took him by surprise. His life picked up in pace considerably, and it tested his self-control in ways he had never before encountered. He found work in Vehl, doing menial tasks that his employer thought fitting for a half-giant. Through this work he soon regained his natural strength and stamina and had enough True to buy himself his first decent meal in an eternity. This marked, to him, a rebirth into the world. He was now his own giant-man.

This is where we find Hugg today.

_____


Alignment rationale:

Due to being utterly isolated for nearly half of his current lifespan (between ages 10 and 21) -- the portion of his life during which he is most likely to have developed his own attitudes and principles -- he has no preconcieved notions of how communities should operate.

During his time of isolation, he developed a number of personal principles essentially to keep him sane and alive. Keeping his life along these principles for so long would make them quite ingrained and he would nary consider disregarding them as soon as his isolation is terminated. These principles are, fundamentally what make Monks Lawful.

His low intelligence (9, see below) keeps him from developing complex artificial ideas of his own, as would be necessary to challenge existing laws, regulations, and such.

With these three factors in mind, I feel a Lawful alignment is appropriate.

The Neutral part is also, I feel the only possible for him to adhere to his personal principles. His imprisonment and consequential isolation are what made him develop strong personal principles, in fact it is what made him as a whole. If he sees this cruelty as morally wrong, he would be belittling himself and his principles. If he sees it as morally right, well, I can't make an Evil character yet even if I wanted to.

[ycleption]

Well, the lore reason for no lawful giants is that while we say half-giant, the actual subrace is specifically half hill giant, and hill giants are non-lawful.
As far as the things that you don't want to hear about, 1. you probably will hear about, and 2. so far as I know is not an issue.

I feel your pain, I would love to play a lawful evil grannochian priest, and I know that the issue has been/is being considered by the powers that be, but I honestly doubt that it will be allowed.

Now, while I am not a CA, my guess is that they would tell you that the story itself doesn't really provide evidence of any particular alignment, and that you could certainly add some details to make this submission TN, CN, or NE... you could always just play an unarmed fighter who calls himself a monk, if you have your heart set on the concept.

[Eyvind]

2. so far as I know is not an issue.

Ortho tells me it is.

Well, the lore reason for no lawful giants is that while we say half-giant, the actual subrace is specifically half hill giant, and hill giants are non-lawful.

But why, or in what way?

you could always

It's not about this character anymore, consider it strictly an alignment question.

[lonnarin]

For a few of those races, the alignment restrictions are for initial submissions.  Half-Giants must be non-lawful.  Half-ogres must always be chaotic neutral... pffft.  I really dont agree with that, but hey.  However, this only stands for their alignment when you first create them.  You may shift your alignment after the initial submission if you keep a detailed character development journal and RP that path for him with players in game.  Take notes of what happened, take screenshots, resubmit the character once you have about 2 months of both saved up, and it might get approved.

So making a TN or NE half giant should be possible, then shifting him to lawful.  The only race that I'm aware of that you cannot absolutely ever shift from their natural alignment are brownies, who can NEVER be chaotic, despite their being chaotic good in both the dungeon master's guide and Willow.  We just have different kinds of layo-specific brownies to whom crime is poison.  All of the other races though, you can start off at the alingments that are allowed, and then shift their alignment via roleplay and keeping a character development thread.

Usually this process takes around 2 months of journals and RP real-time.  Make at least an entry a week talking about how you're learning law, the people that you've met, try to find some reputable characters like paladins and non-Farroses to group with, RP with them and have them add to your journal that they have been training you in the arts of law.  I think it's a paladin's duty to help redeem somebody towards law as much as good, and we have quite a few lower level ones on now, so the chances are pretty good that this would be a good time to turn lawful.

As for *why* the alignment rules are so strict in the first place?  Because four years ago we'd log in and 80% of the server populace were Good dark elves.  You would come into town, ask "what are these dark elves doing here?" and suddenly the humans elves and dwarves would all be outnumbered by hippie dark elves who told them that they just wanted to be friends, and practically none of those dark elves were even Azattan.  It was like if the Nahzgul came to Bree looking for Frodo, found him kicking and screaming under the bed, and gave him a key lime pie.

So these rules are in place so that for the most part, the races seem to fit the stereotypes of them.  On the down side, this totally negates the debate of nature vs nurture, so when a half-ogre or a half-giant orphan is dropped off at a monastary's gates at the age of birth, no matter how rigorous the training or how patient the monks are teaching him, the giantkin will never be lawful at 1st level.  I personally dont agree with that, but I understand why its in place.  This restriction doesn't apply AFTER the submission though... so Tog the giantkin might have been raised by monks to be true neutral, but the lessons he learns later in life while your actually playing the character lead towards him achieving that goal of lawfulness.  The same applies for neutral necromancers who want to go evil, chaotic goblins going lawful, or any of the monstrous races shifting good who aren't already Azattan.  Best advice I can give is stick with the process and keep writing.  If the process seems to have halted, just start asking questions of the team as to what they would like to see, and what specifically they have issue with, and then just keep revising and updating and requesting a re-review.  Submission war of attrition, heheh.

[ycleption]

For a few of those races, the alignment restrictions are for initial submissions.  

There are separate restrictions for submission and subsequent changes...
All monstrous races (which includes half giants) must START as TN, CN, NE, or LE. (with the exception of cleric's of Azatta)
Half giants have the additional restriction that they cannot BE lawful. (see [lore]half giant[/lore])

You could start as TN and then move to NG through roleplay, even though NG would not be an allowed starting alignment.
You could not start as TN and move to LN, since that whole rebel thing is in their blood or something.

Some races, such as tielflings or half ogres, have even more stringent alignment requirements...

Like Lon, I personally disagree (and am still holding out for lawful grannochians), but seeing how TN seems to be the favorite alignment as it is, I can see why its in place. And its better than just having an outright ban on subraces.

[Link092]

*The Beatles starts to play in the background as hippie dark elves gather with lawful giants*



// Opps... John Lennon starts singing in the back ground..... I forgot this wasn't a "Beatles" song.....

[Interia_Discordius]

If we're referencing DnD lore for alignment justifications, I would suggest looking up Tanar'ri (demons). They are strictly in the chaotic line because of their very nature from their spawned environment, and regardless of how they were raised, they have a natural urge to act chaotic... it's in their blood. The Baatezu bloodline, the devils, are the exact opposite in that they HAVE to be lawful.

Granted, I think the lower planes would not allow good alignments, but that's straying from my point.

Basically, I think half giants can't be lawful because it is within their blood and their limited intelligence to not be able to comprehend or fit into the law based system... Maybe you can Rp it to neutral where they can coincide with it, but I can't see it being able to be justified to actual lawfulness. I think that's what the team had in mind when creating that subrace... and something along those lines when they put the restrictions for the rest.

Just a guess.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

Remember that eventually these half races will be phased out, part of the reason the team made the crossing of different races impossible a while back.  So essentially, it's eventually not even going to be an option to be a half elf/ half giant/ half anything

[lonnarin]

*crosses his fingers for a full something-monstrous in the MMORPG.  Definitely goblins....*

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

i think Goblins, Orcs, and Ogres will be safe, Lonn...

[Link092]

wonder if trolls will ever pop up..... and it would be cool to see a pixie... High Dex, and super low Con... like -6 to CON and STR, and +6 or 7 to Dex, maybe +2 to cha.... an affinity for Enchantments, as gnomes are to illusions?

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

Short Answer, Link?  No.  Trolls and Pixies have bonuses and abilities that do not balance with any of the other races.

[Eyvind]

Thank you all for giving your input on this. Still not quite satisfied, and though I might never be, I'd still like to push this some more.

Basically, I think half giants can't be lawful because it is within their blood and their limited intelligence to not be able to comprehend or fit into the law based system... Maybe you can Rp it to neutral where they can coincide with it, but I can't see it being able to be justified to actual lawfulness. I think that's what the team had in mind when creating that subrace... and something along those lines when they put the restrictions for the rest.

I can't simply accept this "because it's in their blood" explanation for such restrictions. It would be fine reasoning to explain why most half-giants are chaotic, or why there are very few lawful half-giants. It does not validate utterly preventing a half-giant from being lawful, though. People go against their "blood" all the time, consciously and not.

The low intelligence isn't a good explanation either. There are plenty of people with lower cognitive ability that have as strong principles and are as law-abiding as any people with higher intelligence. In fact, from my experience it's the people who are less Lawful that come off as more intelligent (though that might simply be coinciding beliefs).

From what I read here and from the IRC discussion yesterday, I haven't really gotten a particularly definitive answer. I have even been given a few quite contradictory answers.

It is starting to look like no one truly knows why Half Giants cannot be Lawful.

[ycleption]

No.  Trolls and Pixies have bonuses and abilities that do not balance with any of the other races.

Keep in mind that Layo is moving away from DnD... no reason why trolls can't become something fairly mundane, or why pixies couldn't be a player race similar to brownies.

Thank you all for giving your input on this. Still not quite satisfied, and though I might never be...

To be blunt, you probably won't ever be satisfied; it sounds as though you've made up your mind that it shouldn't be the way it is... it's an understandable position, but it might be best just to take a deep breath and remember that its a game, and we don't make the rules. *cough* Although I'd still like to see lawful allowed for clerics of Grannoch *cough*
Do try and keep in mind that this is a fantasy universe, and there's no real reason why any particular behavior, whether it's alignment, Meyers-Briggs type, or anything else couldn't be purely genetic.

[Pseudonym]

I thought it was bioware hardcoded that half-giants had to be non-lawful (in addition to whatever other reason someone more learned than me may offer)?

[Xiaobeibi]

*The Beatles starts to play in the background as hippie dark elves gather with lawful giants*



// Opps... John Lennon starts singing in the back ground..... I forgot this wasn't a "Beatles" song.....

While the vile Toranites, Berylites, Voraxians etc gather to oppress these children of prejudice....

I do thank you Eyvind for taking bringing this up. Sometimes alignment requirements are purely for balance or flavour; and although I agree exceptions could happen, I fear the exception has a way of becoming the norm.

I would loathe to see half-giants go the way of darkelves...

[lonnarin]

Please keep brownies and goblins!  Two of my finest memories on this server playing both.  That will ensure my subscription!

[Eyvind]

it might be best just to take a deep breath and remember that its a game, and we don't make the rules.

Whoever does make the rules can still do their best to explain them if asked about it.

[Lily]

Well I think for now we should all lean back for a moment and take a deep breath, to be honest. I am sure someone with the knowledge about why it is as it is will read this thread sooner or later and make a statement.

Just let us all keep in mind that RL sometimes interferes and people have a life besides Layo as well (Yes, we do). Right now we're just turning around in a circle and going nowhere.

I am pretty sure there will be an explanation and it will be posted or was already somewhere in in this forum, I wouldn't know.

So well, we all lean back, take a deep breath and wait for one with the knowledge to show up.

-Lily

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

Please keep brownies and goblins!  Two of my finest memories on this server playing both.  That will ensure my subscription!

I'm sure some version of those races will exist in Layo, whether initially or after an expansion.  it's not that hard to take a human model and just make it 1/4 the original size.

And Goblins are just really ugly Halfling.  A different texture and head model can do wonders in the digital world