Sorcerer advancement

[Pseudonym]

Okay, here's a little (perhaps) odd question.

Is a sorcerer's advancement, in terms of levels and ability to manipulate the Al'Noth, dependent on their ability to remember things? Does their 'improvement' come from making mistakes and learning from them, an accumulation of knowledge, more proficient (through practice) manipulation of Al'Noth? Or, is it something more .. innate?

I have an idea, prompted by Shiff's request, of a sorcerer who has memory issues - along the lines of Memento and 50 First Dates.

Cheers!

[Dorganath]

I would liken a Sorcerer's advancement as something more innate than something he'd need to remember.  Wizards are all about memorization, so memory issues and Wizards probably wouldn't mesh well.  With Sorcerers, while being able to remember what one did right or wrong, it's more like how one "remembers" how to walk or speak. So there's some "memory" involved, but it's not like remembering trigonometry or 18th century world history.

[Hellblazer]

As far as I have always understood it, Sorcerers never had to learn spell they more like felt it and with a strong enough emotional need they manifested. With time they learn to control that emotion need, so they can actually cast the spell at will. It would also be the reason why they don't need spell components as they are partly the component needed for the spell it self.

[Dorganath]

It would also be the reason why they don't need spell components as they are partly the component needed for the spell it self.

The do need spell components, for those spells that take them, unless one takes the Eschew feats, of course.

[Carillon]

Let me preface this by saying that I think there are several different ways to interpret sorcery vs. wizardry, and I agree with Dorg's interpretation above, namely that the "memory" involved in a sorcerer remembering a spell is different than the kind of cognitive or rote memory associated with the memorization of facts.

That said, I strongly disagree that sorcerers do not "learn" their magic--or perhaps I just have a broader definition of "learn" than Hellblazer is using. When a sorcerer gains an ability or can use a new spell, that is most certainly learning. It's just not the same type of learning a wizard might do to learn the same spell!

I suppose you might use a metaphor of two people learning to fix a car (or any variation that appeals to you). One person might sit down with a manual, some textbooks and a bunch of diagrams and study them. He or she would memorize the parts of the car, learn what they did, read from others the steps it takes to fix certain problems, and in all other ways acquire the theoretical knowledge of how to fix the car from his studying. If he were clever enough, he could then put that theoretical knowledge into practice.

Unlike the wizard, the sorcerer approaches learning differently. He already has an innate ability or gift, but lacks something in knowledge and skills to wield that ability. We might say that in our metaphor, the sorcerer had an affinity for cars and an aptitude with them, but didn't know a lot about them first hand yet, perhaps. Still, by learning through discovery and experience, say by going around and mucking about with cars in the garage, taking them apart and putting them together and seeing how they work, he or she would also come to a deep understanding of the car--just a different kind, and acquired in a different way. While the wizard acquired theoretical knowledge through studying, the sorcerer acquires experiential knowledge through practice and experience. This kind of knowledge is much harder to forget than the knowledge the wizard learned, because it was acquired differently. Like an instinct, even when one's mind fails to remember the name of the part, the sorcerer might still be able to fix the car. They have honed their natural aptitude through practice and experience.

The different styles of learning have consequences too! While the sorcerer might not need to brush up before fixing a car, the wizard probably needs to glance over the manual again, similar to having to study before casting a spell. However, the wizard may also be able to read ANY car manual and be successful, while the sorcerer might be great with automatics but lost with standards, or great with fuel engines and lost with a hybrid. This parallels the wizard's ability to learn a greater diversity of spells than the sorcerer, while the sorcerer has a mastery of a certain subset of spells that goes beyond that of the wizard.

I suppose in summary, my interpretation of it has been that the wizard learns theoretical knowledge that can be applied to practice, while the sorcerer learns through direct experience and discovery. Both can acquire the ability to cast certain spells, but while the wizard lacks the sorcerer's mastery over certain types of magic (perhaps both because he lacks the sorcerer's gift or aptitude, and also because the magic is learned differently--these are very hard to separate) which we could call deep understanding, the sorcerer will never have the same breadth of understanding or knowledge that the wizard can acquire.

Wow, long and rambling! Hope that helps.

[Hellblazer]

The do need spell components, for those spells that take them, unless one takes the Eschew feats, of course.

err yeah sorry. It was a reasoning from an old pnp stand point, with my pnp group in the past.

[Pseudonym]

*Long and rambling post* .... Hope that helps.

Kinda. I'd essentially like to know if a sorcerer who woke up each morning with zero memory of the day before (and every day before that) would, ceteris paribus, be a viable character?

[Carillon]

It's a complicated question, and one that I think would ultimately be in the hands of your potential character approver or would need Team discussion, which is why I hesitate to give a quick yes or no answer.

I think it depends on the nature of the memory the person retains, and whether it is a problem of actually retaining any memory, or merely of accessing those memories, both of which would on the surface look like the same thing--the person not remembering anything that happened the day before.  Is the slate truly wiped clean at the end of the day, with the mind truly too damaged to retain anything experienced? Or is it merely a problem of accessing memories--that the knowledge is there somewhere, but locked away for the most part?

Ask yourself this, perhaps: would the person be able to improve at any other skill that requires experience? There are cases, I believe, of people who have suffered traumatic brain injury that can still learn new pieces of music despite not being able to consciously remember anything past a certain point. However, as long as they do not think about how they are reading the music or playing the piano, they can learn to play the music. And should they play the piece often enough, they can remember it--again, only as long as they do not think consciously about it. If they retain their memories subconsciously but just not consciously and are able to act on what they learn through their experiences, at least on an instinctive, subconscious level ... then yes, my opinion is you could justify magic in the same way.

So ... what kind of memory loss did you have in mind? Could the character learn to surf? To tie a new knot, if someone showed him often enough and he didn't think about it? To play an instrument or a piece of music? To shuffle cards in fancy ways? Basically, could they learn anything you could train your body to do on autopilot?

I think your answer to whether it is a viable character concept lies in the answer to that question.

[Pseudonym]

Well, the concept is posted in the Character stable forum ... over to you!  

[merlin34baseball]

Is the sorcerors abilility an inate one? If its inate then I don't see why it couldn't be rediscovered each day I suppose, maybe?

[Dorganath]

It is, but I think the question is would that "rediscovery" automatically include the improvement in a skill or ability one would normally gain through day-to-day life?

Carillon had some very excellent descriptions and explanations, and I think the only thing I'd add (and in a shorter way *winks*), so I think the answer is "yes, conditionally," with that condition being the nature of the memory loss.

[Acacea]

Don't see why not. A sorc with a 6 wis and int is still a viable sorc despite his inability to reason and lack of perception of the world around him as long as he retains the sheer ability to harness his own gift/curse.

Learning to surf, to tie a knot - they can be related questions if you want them to be, but few people are born with the ability to do these things not only without being shown, but at times against their will.

[ycleption]

Kinda. I'd essentially like to know if a sorcerer who woke up each morning with zero memory of the day before (and every day before that) would, ceteris paribus, be a viable character

I think you have to define what "memory" means... human brains at least (I'm not speculating on whether gnomes or elves have different neuropsychological features) rarely forget things entirely. Even someone who have amnesia and think its 1980 may still remember, say, a song that they heard last year, or how to ride a bike even if they learned after that point, or even some of that trigonometry class they took in 1993, even if they can't remember learning those things. Many amnesiacs are surprised at what they know - they're positive that something is so, but they just can't fathom why or they know it. Memory is a strange and interesting thing... so I think with just about any understanding about what a sorcerer is, you could make that a viable concept...

[Nehetsrev]

*shrugs*
 
 Emwonk T'noduoy could be used as a case in point, sorta.  He has portions of his memories that are 'sealed away' by his sub-conscious because of the trauma he suffered.  He's a sorceror/rogue, and I RP his abilities as 'strengthening' over time as he gains levels (gathers charge for Surge, as he puts it).  He does remember most things from day to day, though I also roll will checks occasionally to see if he suffers an emotional breakdown of some sort, especially if there are 'birds' or 'Wardens' around, or he simply thinks there are.  Occasionally, if he suffers one of those breakdowns, he will forget people he knows for a time, and it could be entirely possible he may forget other things, even 'permanently' as well.  Yet his abilities as a sorceror are part of the core of his being, and are not affected.  He -always- remembers 'the Current'.
 
 I'd say, go ahead and submit your amnesiac character for approval, the worst that can happen is it can be denied, allowing you to re-work the condition to a lesser degree perhaps, and get the character into play...
 
 Which reminds me of my first character ever created here, Nehetrev Llun, who's backstory was that he'd lost all knowledge of who he was.  He also was a sorceror, and retained his limitted ability to use the Al'noth.  Though in his case he did remember events taking place after his 'beginnings'.

[Eorendil]

The nice thing is that there is also muscle memory.. and while it may not assist as much in such instances the character will likely fall back into well used semantics that, more than likely, assist in his visualization and channeling of the Al'Noth.

*tosses in 2 true*