Regarding Poison

[morunas]

Greetings,

I know that NWN associates poison with evilness and some have in mind that poison is used for torturing which is a non-good procedure.

Fact is... burning hands in ones leg... a knife in the finger... worms stuffed into ones mouth... can be tools for torture and other things, but they are not non-good. Poison as well can be used for other things, namely:

- Good aligned that use poison to weaken their enemies is a good deed (poison doesn't mean "evilness of slow torturing" but yet weakening/paralizing/incapacitating to more easily kill, which is not an evil paradigm I'd guess.

- Craft of poison-based "medicine" should be possible! It makes sense that an antidote uses poison in its recipe... or an item that gives "immunity to poison" should have perhaps a sample of all existing poisons (a lesser one would serve only against some).

And drilling down, my Gnome Jinxy Lil'branch is a NG smart and cunning Wizard Rogue, that enjoys each day by fighting it through with invention! Now poison traps and poisoned blades are smart things to use... she could make her enemies weaker before she would go for the next cunningness of the battle. She would never torture hence poison would never have such use.

To resume... I ask why is poison only for non-good aligned? And if it would be possible to have it changed somehow.

Cheers!

morunas

[Rowana]

A great many of the dark evils of the world use poison as a matter of course. They use it to weaken so that they can capture, they use it as a slow horrible death, they use it just because they can....

Please see Baraeon Ca'Duz, Vierdri'ira, Corath, and then by contrast see Az'atta for examples of poison in lore.

~row

[morunas]

I know how it is... but what I believe is that it would make sense another perspective on it.

Poison used against evil to weaken them is a good deed!
Or poison used to make antidotes is a good thing!

It's the not the poison that characterizes itself as evil but the way it is used (just like any other thing that can be used in an Evil way).

My question was not "how is it?" but "why is it like that?"

As many great evils in the world will certainly cast fireballs to scorch their enemies to painful incineration and finally to ashes... that doesn't mean their evil.

[darkstorme]

I made a post on the subject here.  Poisons aren't nice.

[morunas]

the poisons most effective in combat (STR, CON, DEX) are the ones most likely to be akin to torture.

I totally disagree. You can cause A LOT of pain (with delayed effects) with:

- 3rd degree burnings: fire spells, flamed weapons, acid burning and freeze burn that destroys skin and causes serious pains that last for days and can even cause infections if not treated.

- Cutting "things" off: if you slice out a finger or an arm of a foe... causes loads of pain and it gets permanent damage both physical and psychological (always used in torture: fingers, tongues, ears, etc.)

- Killing family/friends/memories: no need to comment on this one...

- Controlling the mind (with spells for instance): although not physical damage... controlling the mind of others can cause permanent psychological damage and confusion that can end the life of one.

These are examples of things that are, I guess without a doubt, at the same level of poison regarding capacity to support evil deeds (including torture).

I find plausible at all moral levels that a smart good aligned rogue uses poison as an add-in to its sneak weapon... so that not only he hits where it's most effective... but the hit itself produces an even more efficient result. If the foe gets weakened it's easier to run from it and shoot from afar for instance. It's smart, it works and it's for a good cause. Nothing else in the world gets harmed... only the evil foe.

Now, I've made a case going the other direction as well - but there's a good reason why Good people don't normally make poisons.

That's a NWN num-nuts adaptation to "strengthen" the Evil side I'd guess. Poisons were always used, for instance, by tribes in the amazon jungle in order to hunt. As well I know some medicine is based on using/researching viruses and bacterias as components.

[Dorganath]

I totally disagree. You can cause A LOT of pain (with delayed effects) with:

- 3rd degree burnings: fire spells, flamed weapons, acid burning and freeze burn that destroys skin and causes serious pains that last for days and can even cause infections if not treated.

- Cutting "things" off: if you slice out a finger or an arm of a foe... causes loads of pain and it gets permanent damage both physical and psychological (always used in torture: fingers, tongues, ears, etc.)

- Killing family/friends/memories: no need to comment on this one...

- Controlling the mind (with spells for instance): although not physical damage... controlling the mind of others can cause permanent psychological damage and confusion that can end the life of one.

These are examples of things that are, I guess without a doubt, at the same level of poison regarding capacity to support evil deeds (including torture).

Torture, regardless of the means, is considered an evil act. Period. I will not let this discussion degrade into a debate on "what is torture" so let's please not go down that road.

In a game like NWN, there is frankly a lot of killing.  The reason for the killing is generally wrapped in the idea that "Yeah, but we're only killing the 'bad' things", thus taking the practice into a sort of morally grey area that we just need to ignore for the most part for the sake of mechanics.  Moving past that, there's killing, and then there's the slow, torturous, painful death that can be administered in any number of ways, be it poison or systematic mutilation or what have you.

In a game setting, it is rarely the act of killing things that is at issue, but rather it is the means that brings us at odds with the alignment system. NWN poisons are not meant to kill.  They're meant to debilitate and weaken a being, and keep that being in such a state, such that yes, only a specialized treatment (or death) can remove such effects. Curing spells can fix wounds but poison will still run through a person's veins, keeping its effects going.

In a  similar way, "Speak with Dead", which is not a mechanically-available spell but which can be used in a ritual sense with GM supervision, is considered an evil act.  In classifying it as such, it is not the ends that are important (i.e. getting a critical piece of information needed to defeat the Big Bad Guy) but rather the means to that end (i.e. disturbing the remains of the dead for personal gain).

[Rowana]

Let's just cut the quibble here. Heh.

Poison is evil by the standards of 99.9% of good aligned people. If you want to play your character as an 'abnormal' type (after all Adventurers are already abnormal anyway) that's fine. Just don't expect the populace (and a fair number of your fellow adventurers) to agree. In the eyes of society, using poison is evil and as such, you're going to get dinged alignment points where appropriate.

I only boil it down this way because we regularly have this conversation with players and it is always fine to express an alternate view but the bottom line is the general good aligned civilians of Layonara hear the word poison and they think of all that is evil with the world.

For Az'attan's it is a reminder of the evil ways from which She came from. For a lot of Voraxians it is a dishonorable way to 'win' a battle and considerable weight at that. For Aeridites it falls under that whole 'taint' category and as such, considered an aberration (though I'm sure there are some who study it as necessary to find cures). I could go on. The effect this has is that for a myriad of reasons the good people of the world have grown up in an environment that 'poison' is evil. It is equated with insults ("You and your poisoned tongue!"), poor behaviors, dark dealings etc.

We can rationalize and reexplain and rehash and restate (trust me it's been hashed out a lot) all we like, but the populace of the world does not care about all that stuff. They want to live safe happy lives away from the influence of the evils of the world, of which, poison is one.

~row

[ycleption]

I think you're thinking of it the wrong way - absolutely, anything can be used for evil torture-y effects... and absolutely poisons can be used to good effect.... BUT, the poisons that are mechanically craftable in game are the probably the ways that require some moral flexibility to use.

If you want to RP using poisons to concoct antidotes, I don't see anything wrong with that... its just more the province of the heal skill or alchemy craft than poisoncrafting. Just think of the poisoncrafting skill as a small subset of everything that one can do using poisons.

[miltonyorkcastle]

Just think of the poisoncrafting skill as a small subset of everything that one can do using poisons.

Exactly. Repeat it a few times for emphasis. Alchemy is the route you want to go for antidote making in this incarnation of Layo.

They want to live safe happy lives away from the influence of the evils of the world, of which, poison is one.

And for a considerable portion of the general populace, adventurers are considered an "evil" of the world.

I find plausible at all moral levels that a smart good aligned rogue uses poison as an add-in to its sneak weapon... so that not only he hits where it's most effective... but the hit itself produces an even more efficient result. If the foe gets weakened it's easier to run from it and shoot from afar for instance. It's smart, it works and it's for a good cause. Nothing else in the world gets harmed... only the evil foe.

Remember that this world (Layo) is a different world from ours, and its morality scale not only doesn't match ours, but is rooted in a very different history. Whether or not the effects from surviving a fireball are physically comparable to the effects of some poisons means little in the face of a pervading (IC) belief that poisons are evil. Your character can of course attempt to change that pervading belief on whatever level he wishes, but it obviously won't be an easy task.


Does this make sense? It's not that what you're saying isn't logical, it's that your character is living in a world whose morals and understanding of life do not always match those of earth (and our IG systems reflect this) and are not always based in sound logical reasoning.

[Gulnyr]

Good aligned that use poison to weaken their enemies is a good deed (poison doesn't mean "evilness of slow torturing" but yet weakening/paralizing/incapacitating to more easily kill, which is not an evil paradigm I'd guess.

Remember that Good is not defined by what characters with "Good" in their alignment do. What characters think is "good" is not necessarily in-line and compatible with the "Good" alignment.  Alignment is about the means, not the ends.

Consciously working to devise ways to make it easier to kill others is Neutral at best, and much more likely to be Evil.  Good characters respect life; they aren't unprepared, but they don't sit around thinking up ways to make it easier to slaughter others.

It's not hard, especially for people with good imaginations, to come up with a justification for why something should be allowed for their characters.  Alignment is a sticky issue sometimes, and people try to justify all sorts of crazy actions for their characters' alignments all the time, even if only for themselves.  That's why there are so many genocidal Good *cough* characters running around.  Try considering Good separately from good and it may help with understanding why a Good character really shouldn't (and wouldn't) use or make poison.

[morunas]

Remember that this world (Layo) is a different world from ours, and its morality scale not only doesn't match ours, but is rooted in a very different history. Whether or not the effects from surviving a fireball are physically comparable to the effects of some poisons means little in the face of a pervading (IC) belief that poisons are evil. Your character can of course attempt to change that pervading belief on whatever level he wishes, but it obviously won't be an easy task.

Does this make sense? It's not that what you're saying isn't logical, it's that your character is living in a world whose morals and understanding of life do not always match those of earth (and our IG systems reflect this) and are not always based in sound logical reasoning.

Yes of course it sounds logical! But the fact is my character CAN'T do it. If my character should venture such paths then let the ones who meet him judge his acts.

But saying "you can't extract poison because you're good aligned" doesn't make sense. It makes sense to say "you have extracted poison in Hempstead where it is considered an insult to the society and you're hereby expelled from the city".

You understand what I mean? Don't lock it mechanically, lock it RPingly.

It would just add another little dimension to the great world Layonara is and provide more RP opportunities!

I'm not saying: poison shouldn't be considered evil (that's what my character things and what many in the world disagrees with).

What I'm saying, and emphasize: don't forbid players for using it mechanically, instead RP the consequences of such.

E.g.: if my character extracts poison without anyone seeing it, carries it without nobody knowing it and uses it carefully, why shouldn't I be allowed?! Perhaps if someone spots her doing that can lead to interesting RP, but hey! It's for the best!

[Dorganath]

You understand what I mean? Don't lock it mechanically, lock it RPingly.

The thing is, just having an "RP lock" on poison is not going to be very effective in this setting.  In a table-top, PnP setting it would be OK, because then the RP consequences can both be observed and enforced.  Here, given the lack of a constant GM presence on every single character, it will not.

All rationalization aside, poison in NWN is more of a mechanical benefit than it is an RP opportunity. Your idea to enforce the RP consequences is fine, but impractical.  The community does not want the GM team hovering over them all the time watching for such things and bringing down consequences when they occur.  The GM Team doesn't want to do this either.

E.g.: if my character extracts poison without anyone seeing it, carries it without nobody knowing it and uses it carefully, why shouldn't I be allowed?! Perhaps if someone spots her doing that can lead to interesting RP, but hey! It's for the best!

This line of thinking is concerning to say the least.  By extension, if your "Good" character commits an evil act that no one witnesses, are you suggesting we should just let that go until someone does? Just because it wasn't witnessed doesn't mean it didn't happen.  Alignment is not a result of people seeing your actions but rather that your actions were made.

[miltonyorkcastle]

I totally feel you on that sentiment, mate, as I don't much care for mechanical restrictions that don't make good sense IC. However, if this what you were really getting at from the beginning, I feel like we went down the wrong path of explanation, though maybe something useful was learned through all the prior posts anyway, so hey, all good. Yeah, I like to teach and learn. :p

The reason we have a mechanical restriction has more to do with the lack of manpower (and desire) to police/enforce proper RP with regard to poisons than it has to do with the fact that they are in fact viewed as evil in Layo. Since a GM cannot be there all of the time to represent the various NPCs roaming around and their reactions to a PC performing a deed that goes against their chosen alignment, those few times that a PC does encounter a GM-fueled encounter could result in a surprise that the PC doesn't like, no matter how clear that we think we make it regarding the nature of those who would choose to use poison.

For example, PC-1 decides that he can justify using poison for whatever reason despite his CG alignment, and goes about moving up the ranks (say, rank five) in poison-crafting. This PC-1 then attends a quest, and during that quests attempts to use a poison to deal with a situation. At the end of the quest, the GM awards the player with an evil alignment point, and the player responds with, "What the hey? I was doing a good deed!" The GM responds, "Poison and its use is considered evil, and therefore your character using it is an evil deed." PC-1: "Well, if it's an evil deed, why was I allowed to do all that poison crafting I did? Are you saying all that time I spent poison-crafting is for nothing because if I use poison my character will turn evil? That sucks." GM: "Um... no warning was given because a GM didn't notice what you were doing, and because there is an OOC notice on all of the poison equipment warning that use of poison is evil." PC-1: "Wow, this is really lame. Can I get those poison crafting levels turned into alchemy levels?" GM: "Um, no."

I think you get the picture. The mechanical restriction is the best we can do given what we have to work with via the game engine itself and our limited manpower, as well as the fact that not all players "roll with it" when they are shown by staff to be RPing something incorrectly.

EDIT: Dorg beat me to it, more or less.

[morunas]

The thing is, just having an "RP lock" on poison is not going to be very effective in this setting. In a table-top, PnP setting it would be OK, because then the RP consequences can both be observed and enforced. Here, given the lack of a constant GM presence on every single character, it will not.

All rationalization aside, poison in NWN is more of a mechanical benefit than it is an RP opportunity. Your idea to enforce the RP consequences is fine, but impractical. The community does not want the GM team hovering over them all the time watching for such things and bringing down consequences when they occur. The GM Team doesn't want to do this either.

I can understand that

This line of thinking is concerning to say the least. By extension, if your "Good" character commits an evil act that no one witnesses, are you suggesting we should just let that go until someone does? Just because it wasn't witnessed doesn't mean it didn't happen. Alignment is not a result of people seeing your actions but rather that your actions were made.

But where did my character commit an evil act? If she uses it to more easily kill foes (let's say, for example, trade route bandits) the deed is not evil. The common soul of the world might negatively judge the usage of poison but the deed it self is not evil (its means might be considered evil by others, but she doesn't, she sees it as just another tool). She didn't stab them and let them to suffer... she was going to kill them anyway (for self-defense inclusively) and this way they actually struggled less time.

Alignment is about the means, not the ends.

I disagree. Alignment is about behavior and intention. As example, if you want to torture (behavior and intention) you're being non-good NO MATTER the means (fire, blades, poison, mind, etc) nor the result. But alone matters your behavior and intention on doing it.

I totally feel you on that sentiment, mate, as I don't much care for mechanical restrictions that don't make good sense IC. However, if this what you were really getting at from the beginning, I feel like we went down the wrong path of explanation, though maybe something useful was learned through all the prior posts anyway, so hey, all good. Yeah, I like to teach and learn.

I always like a good mind-storming struggle to perfect the system (in which we all are included).

For example, PC-1 decides that he can justify using poison for whatever reason despite his CG alignment, and goes about moving up the ranks (say, rank five) in poison-crafting. This PC-1 then attends a quest, and during that quests attempts to use a poison to deal with a situation. At the end of the quest, the GM awards the player with an evil alignment point, and the player responds with, "What the hey? I was doing a good deed!" The GM responds, "Poison and its use is considered evil, and therefore your character using it is an evil deed." PC-1: "Well, if it's an evil deed, why was I allowed to do all that poison crafting I did? Are you saying all that time I spent poison-crafting is for nothing because if I use poison my character will turn evil? That sucks." GM: "Um... no warning was given because a GM didn't notice what you were doing, and because there is an OOC notice on all of the poison equipment warning that use of poison is evil." PC-1: "Wow, this is really lame. Can I get those poison crafting levels turned into alchemy levels?" GM: "Um, no."

I think you get the picture. The mechanical restriction is the best we can do given what we have to work with via the game engine itself and our limited manpower, as well as the fact that not all players "roll with it" when they are shown by staff to be RPing something incorrectly.

Hmm, ya I better see your point.


Then... help me out here: Jinxy DOESN'T care about the result of the poison on her foes. Currently she is NG because she was innocently raised by her parents in a good environment. But her interest falls onto using the poison! She wants to be able to wield it as an addition to the tools she has available for her craftingations which is what by far matters the most... does that make her alignment shift to True Neutral?

RPingly she is using poisons. And as long as her machinations and inventions (Goran alike) work wonderfully fine on their purposes she doesn't care about how her foes die (Shadon alike). Should I submit to change her alignment?

Thanks for all the support!

[Dorganath]

But where did my character commit an evil act? If she uses it to more easily kill foes (let's say, for example, trade route bandits) the deed is not evil. The common soul of the world might negatively judge the usage of poison but the deed it self is not evil (its means might be considered evil by others, but she doesn't, she sees it as just another tool). She didn't stab them and let them to suffer... she was going to kill them anyway (for self-defense inclusively) and this way they actually struggled less time.

You're rationalizing again.  That's not necessarily the right perpective.  You're narrowing whether something is "good" or "evil" to the perspective of a single character, not the grander, macroscopic perspective.  Alignment is macroscopic and not subject to the perception of a single character. More on this below.

I disagree. Alignment is about behavior and intention. As example, if you want to torture (behavior and intention) you're being non-good NO MATTER the means (fire, blades, poison, mind, etc) nor the result. But alone matters your behavior and intention on doing it.

No, actually Gulnyr was pretty right, at least as far as we want to see it portrayed. One's actions should be the product of their alignment.  The means go along with intent.  This is not to say that one's actions cannot then also influence their alignment, but here, at least, we do not want someone to consistently act outside of one's alignment without being approved to do so. One's thoughts and motivations can begin to shift, but one's actions must generally reflect one's alignment. That is our expectation of players here with regards to alignment.

Further, consider the fact that plenty of Evil characters (PCs and NPCs) who commit acts that appear to be "good", but the machinations behind those actions are definitely in the "evil" camp. Intent, means and motivation are products of alignment, not the other way around.

Then... help me out here: Jinxy DOESN'T care about the result of the poison on her foes. Currently she is NG because she was innocently raised by her parents in a good environment. But her interest falls onto using the poison! She wants to be able to wield it as an addition to the tools she has available for her craftingations which is what by far matters the most... does that make her alignment shift to True Neutral?

RPingly she is using poisons. And as long as her machinations and inventions (Goran alike) work wonderfully fine on their purposes she doesn't care about how her foes die (Shadon alike). Should I submit to change her alignment?

Thanks for all the support!

Her apathy does not suggest a very NG mindset, so while her alignment remains as NG, then you need to consider this.  If that does not fit with your character concept, you can submit for an alignment shift, but you are still expected to RP your existing alignment until such time as your shift was approved. Just a tip though: using "I want her to use poison" as a justification for changing alignment is probably not going to be sufficient.

Have a look at Neutral Good and True Neutral. I think you'll see that your characters lack of caring how her enemies die does not really fit into a Neutral Good mindset.

It sounds to me like a fundamental conflict in your character's alignment vs. your stated motivations for her, which probably should be resolved regardless of the poison issue.

[morunas]

but you are still expected to RP your existing alignment until such time as your shift was approved

How's that possible if Alignment shifts are based on RP actions?!?! I'm suppose to state what she's thinking but still act what she's not thinking anymore alike o.O?

I've started another thread only focuses on Jinxy's RP status since I wouldn't like this discussion to focus on my character but yet for everybody.

[Gulnyr]

A character is expected to be played according to the alignment approved.  Since your character is currently Good, for example, you need to play her as Good, even though that may not be the alignment that expresses the character as you actually want her to be.  I understand that can be weird.

Alignment shifts are based on RP actions, but no one is ever going to shift alignment just by doing it.  Alignment shifts are always approved before they begin, and then a gradual shift over a couple of weeks of RP happens.  If, in the course of play, a Lawful character loses faith in rules and order and the player wants the character's alignment to move from Lawful to Neutral, the shift has to be requested and approved before any change in RP begins.  If it is approved, then and only then can the character start behaving differently.  It sounds awful on paper, but it's not that bad.  Honest.

Also - and I'm not a CA or anything, so don't take this as official - your case sounds like a misunderstanding or difference in rule philosophy rather than an IC change of heart.  You might not have to RP through a gradual shift.  You still need to respect the server rules and play a Good character until she's approved and flipped to the Neutral alignment.  That's all Dorg was saying.

[morunas]

Ya I got the big picture better now

I might have a pinch of extra stubbornness but I get there xD

I'll submit for alignment change and try go keep her in the NG steps with some flexibility for the fun

Like yesterday Jinxy met SehKy and Keela and we were cleaning Gnolls as we were passing through the Ire Mountains and Jinxy made a comment such as: "If you aim for the jaws (the bow) they make a very funny noise! *giggles*".

That's not very "good" but I believe it's acceptable (as there can be different levels of good aligned as NWN 0-50-100/0-50-100 point scale defines), right?

I'll just avoid mentioning poison then

[miltonyorkcastle]

One's actions should be the product of their alignment.

....... or put another way: your actions do not define your alignment; your alignment defines your actions.

As Dorg suggests (and this is for everyone's benefit), this is how you should approach alignment while playing on Layonara. It's certainly not the only way to approach the question of alignment, and we could naturally debate the merits of such an interpretation. However, it would simply remain a discussion/debate/academic exercise, in that this is the way alignment has been handled and interpreted from the beginning and it is not likely to change.

your case sounds like a misunderstanding or difference in rule philosophy rather than an IC change of heart.

Gulnyr hit it on the head (which based on your previous post I think you understand, morunas), and the ask-a-gamemaster forums are designed specifically to help players learn how Layonara interprets various game mechanics and RP philosophy.