Shapes and language ears

[AeonBlues]

I discovered recently, to my pleasant surprise, that when in certain shapes my character gets certain language ears.

With the standard /dm [What I say here

Wyrmling, kobold, and lizard whip master default to draconic ears.

The dark elf shape defaults to elf...  With this shape I am wondering if PC dark elves default to elf as well.  Is there a command I could issue while in dark elf shape to speak with dark elf ears?

I would like some clarification on what my character can speak and hear with these.  He never learned draconic, so it seems a bit of a stretch to me that he would be  able to speak and understand a new language just because he shifts to a reptilian shape.

Like, if on a DM event, could I pose as a dark elf and speak dark elf?  Could I shift into a lizard man, and eaves drop on what a group of lizard men were saying?

AeonBlues

[Nehetsrev]

//OOC

Draconic, eh?  *twiddles his thumbs and whistles inocently for a moment*  There's a certain Halfling bard who might need your services as a language tutor/interpreter....

[AeonBlues]

Eh, the more I think about it, the more I side on thinking this is a bio ware thing, and my character should not RP knowing draconic while in reptilian shapes.

Just waiting for an official ruling on this.  I must stumped the staff on this one

AeonBlues

My RP of this is kind of funny.  Nyeaeana shouts things in draconic while in combat.  When questioned about it later, he responds, "What?  Me no speak draconic.  I wonder what I was saying."

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Actually, your character shouldn't gain any new languages by shifting forms, except MAYBE Aquatic if shifting to an aquatic form.

After all, the druid'll already know Animal, and... How can taking something's shape lend one the language of the creature, which (as proven by the fact that there are differing languages even among one species, us) isn't exactly born with the language known.

Dark Elves receive Elven and Dark Elf as automatic languages.

[AeonBlues]

That is what I am saying Stephen.  When I shift into a reptilian shape, my default ear becomes draconic.

Aeon

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Then ignore it. *Chuckles.* And post a bug report.

[Makashi]

Mmm, I have to say when I saw you using that I didn't like the idea of some one being able to shift forms and naturally aquire that given language. Shifting shapes won't effect your intelligence to a level where you instantly have knowledge of that language.

Reasons behind this really...:

Draconic is a very hard language to learn, Nyeaeana would not be able to learn this through simply shifting into a wyrmling or a kobold, however, my personal view is this would be a path you could explore, if you have the right intelligence.

What I mean by this is, in your CDT, or perhaps a CDQ would be more appropriate, is that you could begin to study the creatures you are shifting into in more detail, and therefore learn the language through studying them closely, but again, I think this would take atleast a CDQ, if not several.

Learning a language like draconic however, gets a bit more difficult. It would be like me going to a country in the middle east and trying to pick up their language from scratch, I can't even say a single word, or read or write them, but through being taught could learn. When theres no teachers, it's something that will be near impossible to learn. Which is why the people going for that PrC are going to struggle for a long while.

If your intelligence however is low, theres no chance of doing this.

So yes, I'd consider it a bug, and stop RP'ing the ability to speak these languages,

Thanks.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Actually, it's simply impossible to learn a language without some example to base it off of.

Language is not something that comes with the genes. It is taught, even to the beings with whom the language is associated (even Dragons are taught Draconic by their parents or other dragons).

[Makashi]

Thats pretty much what I meant: "When theres no teachers, it's something that will be near impossible to learn."

But you can still grasp a language gradually even if there is no 'common' ground of communication to be found, which is why actions like pointing, and object association becomes vitally important for learning a language from scratch and would take years.

So to learn a language on Layo, yes, a teacher is required.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Um, it's not "near" impossible. It's entirely impossible. <<;

Without some example of the language (even if there's no commonality to link the language to one you already know - if you even know one) it is impossible to learn it.

If you never read it, never hear it, never come into contact with it at all, it is impossible to learn.

[Makashi]

Alright, if you could just read through the post I made again, to make sure you understood it properly, as I think you have misinterperated me.

Completely agree if there has been no experience of the language because you don't know it exists in all likliness in that case. but I disagree if you are stating you cannot learn a language by learning through actions, other than just words or books.

And if you want a really good example. Think about real life. Or teaching monkeys, they learn through pointing (eye contact), and object association, they have not learnt the language, but they understand it now. Does that make more sense now?

Or for an example on layonara, those who have met the fox on one of my series will know how important actions like these are in communication across language barriers.

So yes, if you have never come into contact with the languauge, you would not know about it, end of story? but that wasn't the point I was trying to make earlier anyway.

Going back to layonara - You still require a teacher to learn a language.

[lonnarin]

As for the people who claim druids lack the vocal chords to talk in animal form...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV6DQuEh4UQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXm6M8m0I-A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSDFzg8_Wfg
YouTube - Talking dog
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlZV0g6DlJg
YouTube - Parakeet talking
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cen6Sgj0kNo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-vRS5FNG0E

And all of these little critters only have an intelligence of 2 or 3... UNLIKE a druid would in that form, who could better practice and anunciate with the context of his phenomes in mind.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

As for the people who claim druids lack the vocal chords to talk in animal form...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV6DQuEh4UQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXm6M8m0I-A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSDFzg8_Wfg
YouTube - Talking dog
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlZV0g6DlJg
YouTube - Parakeet talking
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cen6Sgj0kNo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-vRS5FNG0E

And all of these little critters only have an intelligence of 2 or 3... UNLIKE a druid would in that form, who could better practice and anunciate with the context of his phenomes in mind.

Having seen the videos myself, I've never been one of the fellows to say that it's impossible for a Druid to speak Common while in animal form. That said, if it were someone just chattering along in Common, I wouldn't think that very classy - some description of the gutteral, rough quality of the words, a written-in accent... Let's have some flair.

[Dorganath]

Could we please not do this?

Whether animals can be trained to mimic a subset of human language sounds or not does not and should not imply that a shifted druid could speak clear Common, Elvish or any other language.  There are physiological reasons why certain sounds cannot be made, especially those that require well-articulated lips (B, P, V and F come to mind at first).

If you want my personal opinion, it is far more interesting to RP other forms of communication while shape changed then trying to justify why you can speak clear Common/Elvish/Whateverish in animal form.

On the same token, let's remember that the Animal language is not a fully-developed and mature language in the usual sense, but rather a common way for animals to convey simple thoughts.

And to echo what has been said already, physical form does not grant understanding of or the ability to converse in an alternate language, especially one like Draconic.

[lonnarin]

So humans with a speach impediment aren't speaking common?

Sorry, but when I find real-life examples of dogs barking "rye ruv roo!" and people say it can't even happen when a magical shapeshifting humanoid with all their advanced intellect intact, then the physical limitations aren't really relevant.  Fantasy is supposed to be more fantastic than mundane reality, after all, and on this hardline, Fantasy is claiming not to believe in Reality.

[Dorganath]

*throws his hands in the air*

Whatever...I'm not going to argue this point.  I've made my comment.  If you want to play a druid who shapeshifts into a sonnet-reciting wolf with perfect diction and a noble accent, then whee. Who am I to stop you.  I think it's wrong, but hey, what do I know?

By your same logic though, a druid with a superior intellect should be able to completely ignore physiology and say...always walk around upright on its hind legs while shifted...or perhaps do "wing stands" as a bird. Afterall, if one unlikely physical limitation can be overcome, why not all of them?  Oh and of course their superior intellect would let them be able to cast spells while shifted.

Oh wait...

[lonnarin]

No, I never said it would be done with perfect diction and noble accents.  Logically they would have HORRIBLE speach impediments, and not entirely understandable unless you listened very closely... but hardliners deny even this possibility.  And I'm certainly not saying that one should ignore physiology entirely.  People who claim that animal-shapes are incapable of speaking *any* common after seeing physical evidence to the contrary are the ones who are completely ignoring physiology.  One cannot cite physiological reality as a basis for an argument and then eschew all real-life physical data to the contrary in the same breath.

What I find far more unrealistic than shifted druids speaking mangled common is when a humanoid druid in a humanoid form speaks "animal tongue".  How is a human to speak to a bat without high-frequency sonar capabilities?  How does a druid raised in the forrest suddenly know the various languages of desert, cave and ocean-dwelling species, and any animal species he never faced before when they each have their own way of communicating?  How can a druid say something in one tongue that both the badger and the bird simotaneously understand, when the two don't even understand eachother?  That to me is the bigger stretch of logic.

That reasoning might be why PnP has "Speak with Animals" as a magical spell instead of a language.  I think the animal "language" we use in game here is more apty described as a intuitive understanding of wildlife empathy than an actual language persay.  It's not so much that they're "talking" to animals, but that animals and druids understand eachother's base motives.  In truth, if a ranger or druid wanted to fully "talk" to a bear, ("hey buddy bear!  how's it going?  I just caught 6 fish, boy they were tastey...") he'd have to spend a heck of a lot of time with bears and learning what each series of grunts means... though their limited intellectual capacity would make their language a bit easier to learn than a humanoid one.

3.5 does have animal shapes casting spells too, as does 3.0 with the wilderness classes suppliment, and NWN 2.  I think it's a cheap feat though... since they could always use still & silent spell to the same effect... maybe a parrot could speak clearly enough to cast with just still-spell, heh.  But animal-casting?  *shrugs* blame magic.

[Dorganath]

No, I never said it would be done with perfect diction and noble accents.  Logically they would have HORRIBLE speach impediments, and not entirely understandable unless you listened very closely... but hardliners deny even this possibility.  And I'm certainly not saying that one should ignore physiology entirely.  People who claim that animal-shapes are incapable of speaking *any* common after seeing physical evidence to the contrary are the ones who are completely ignoring physiology.  One cannot cite physiological reality as a basis for an argument and then eschew all real-life physical data to the contrary in the same breath.

My problem is that once we start down this path, someone (and then lots of someones) will start to think that "Yeah, it's OK to speak clearly while shifted into a different form, even though that form doesn't typically support speech."  I would far rather be more restrictive in saying wolves/badgers/panthers cannot speak at all than to have to suffer through the bad RP that comes from people not being smart about the limits such forms naturally impose upon such things.  

In various mythologies and fantasy lore, there have been creatures in well-known forms of dogs, wolves, foxes, snakes and other animals who were described as speaking, however these were, with few if any exceptions, all supernatural creatures, which clearly allows them to bend or ignore the limits of physiology for the purposes of the story. In our case, while the transformation itself is supernatural, the end forms are not.

So the topic was raised and in my opinion, Common speech by druids in animal form is something that shouldn't be done.

What I find far more unrealistic than shifted druids speaking mangled common is when a humanoid druid in a humanoid form speaks "animal tongue".  How is a human to speak to a bat without high-frequency sonar capabilities?  How does a druid raised in the forrest suddenly know the various languages of desert, cave and ocean-dwelling species, and any animal species he never faced before when they each have their own way of communicating?  How can a druid say something in one tongue that both the badger and the bird simotaneously understand, when the two don't even understand eachother?  That to me is the bigger stretch of logic.

On the same token, let's remember that the Animal language is not a fully-developed and mature language in the usual sense, but rather a common way for animals to convey simple thoughts.

I believe I covered that.

And as for the 3.5 rules or 3.0 supplements, that's all well and good, but a) that's not what we're running here and b) those aren't automatic but are rather Feats which must be taken explicitly. As such, they don't really have any relevance to the issue.

[Weeblie]

Lets see if we can kill the discussion by a single blow...

Fantasy might be fantasy, and things not happening in the real world do happen in a fantasy one. But still, the fantasy world, is just like the real world, governed by a set of laws (like laws of physics), just not the same ones.

Now, it happens so that when the God/Gods created the world, they made it so that transmutated creatures are not automaticly given the knowledge how to speak in the language of the "new" shape. Someone changing to the form of a dog would be able to bark, but the barking would not make any sense for the other dogs present, unless the one changing shape did know how to "speak" in Dog (shown by having an Ear of Animal). This is the law present when the world is created, and this is still the law present to date.

Hence the reason Dorg's right!

Edit: Oh... one more thing... as for all the "language spells" that are present in D&D, they have been explicitly removed from Layo. You cannot even use those spells on DM quests, as they simply do not exist (stated in some old thread also).

[Ozy_Llewellyn]

Once upon a time I sugested this.
Rename the ear to "Animal Empathy".

Done and done. Its not a language 'now', its animal empathy. Something clearly defined and explaned. Feel free to correct the spelling on this one, I didn't run it through word.