Author Topic: strangeness in the Az'atta page (Read 1208 times)

Hellblazer · « **on:** August 04, 2009, 10:30:29 pm »

LORE: Az'atta

According to the az'atta page, all races can follow her as long as they are good aligned

Worshipers: Any race as long they are good aligned.

But when you start a DE that is not a cleric, then you have to either start it as TN, CN, NE, CE (well if you are masochist enough to have it approved to be automatically given to the gms :p )

if we take a look at that, any DE that is not a cleric has to be one of the racial alignment, but then would not fall into the worshipers status that is written on Az'atta's page.

I'd like to know more about this one as it is puzzling me.

Dorganath · « **Reply #1 on:** August 04, 2009, 11:30:32 pm »

From [lore]Dark Elf[/lore]:

Quote

All PC Dark Elves must be submitted as one of the following alignments: True Neutral, Chaotic Neutral, Lawful Evil, Neutral Evil. The lone exception to this rule is if a Dark Elf is submitted as a cleric of Az'atta, in which case they may submit with a Good alignment.

Emphasis mine.

Hellblazer · « **Reply #2 on:** August 04, 2009, 11:51:21 pm »

yes that I knew, but in their natural state. DE are not a good aligned race no? as DE az'attan clerics being the lone exception.

ycleption · « **Reply #3 on:** August 04, 2009, 11:58:39 pm »

I think the intent should be clear from context, but it could be phrased better... I think it should read something like "Any race, so long as the worshipper is good aligned" (which I think is HB's objection)
Which of course raises the question, should CN clerics of Az'atta be allowed?

Hellblazer · « **Reply #4 on:** August 04, 2009, 11:59:43 pm »

yes that is what I mean. By how it's phrased now, no TN, CN, would be allowed to follow her. So by that no dark elf that is not a cleric would be allowed to follow az'atta.

Dorganath · « **Reply #5 on:** August 05, 2009, 12:43:25 am »

Except for clerics of Az'atta, dark elves can no longer be submitted in any but TN, CN, LE and NE.

That's not to say they can't progress that way (i.e. from CN to CG), but they can't start out that way.

As for the apparent contradiction between "any Good" and the "one step rule" also shown on the Az'atta page, that's unfortunately something that Ed will have to clarify, and he's on vacation.

As things stand now, new Dark Elf must be submitted in one of the four alignments given, and if you want to add Az'atta worship on top of that, then the only path for new characters is as a member of the clergy. These are the guidelines, and that's what sets the limits. Any variance will have to come from Ed directly.

Hellblazer · « **Reply #6 on:** August 05, 2009, 02:00:32 am »

well not for me got my de approved as tn but i was scratching my head when it was pointed out to me tonight.

Thunder Pants · « **Reply #7 on:** August 05, 2009, 02:08:18 am »

I think Hellblazers issue is not with the 4 alignments that the darkelves are allowed (with clerics being allowed to be submited as good) it's with the "worshipers of Az'atta are only allowed to be submitted as good", which means that the only DE's that can be submitted as followers of Az'atta must be clerics, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense to be honest

Hellblazer · « **Reply #8 on:** August 05, 2009, 03:15:41 am »

Bingo! My suggestion to this would be to expand the worshipers alignment to TN and CN but keep the restriction of the clerics to the existing alignment.

Nehetsrev · « **Reply #9 on:** August 05, 2009, 07:31:30 am »

Personally, I think it ought to be left as it is. Az'atta is a Good goddess, and beyond just that, she a goddess of Redemption. Anyone who really follows her closely enough to fill their diety field with her name ought to have undergone a redemptive, total change of the heart toward good involving sincere repentance, otherwise they fall into the 'just paying lip-service and going through the motions' category in my own opinion.

Pseudonym · « **Reply #10 on:** August 05, 2009, 07:40:55 am »

@Nehetsrev - Not sure if I agree. I would think, as the Goddess of Redemption, she would love her name to fill the deity field as soon as the Dark Elf took the first and tiniest little step towards 'good', not just when they arrived at their destination (both spiritually and mechanically speaking).

Nehetsrev · « **Reply #11 on:** August 05, 2009, 08:19:05 am »

Perhaps then it's more the 'one step at a time rule' I have more issues with in regards to alignment changes. As I see it, it's entirely possible for a person to have a complete turn around in their theological beliefs and personal nature if they've experienced a sincere and true repentance. Scrooge the miser comes to mind from A Christmas Carol, as does the redemptive action of Darth Vader at the end of Return of the Jedi, and I'm sure there are plenty of other examples both in fiction and real life of such dramatic redemptive change, as well as the reverse change from good to evil (which is likely far more common). The point being, anyone who's experienced true redemption, with the convictions that come with it, continues a sustained and vigorously pursued effort at remaining so redeemed. The very idea of the evil acts once done routinely at that point become a source of repulsion themselves, aiding the truly repentant in remaining righteous, and spurning them further in some cases to attempt the redemption of those whose lives they touch.

Maybe I'm also dissappointed that there just don't seem to be enough in the way of real zealots in Layonara, but that's a topic for another thread.

Dorganath · « **Reply #12 on:** August 05, 2009, 08:19:52 am »

Quote from: Thunder Pants

I think Hellblazers issue is not with the 4 alignments that the darkelves are allowed (with clerics being allowed to be submited as good) it's with the "worshipers of Az'atta are only allowed to be submitted as good", which means that the only DE's that can be submitted as followers of Az'atta must be clerics, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense to be honest

Yeah, I understand that, and that's why I said that one apparent contradiction is something that Ed will have to clarify when he returns from vacation, one way or the other. He may just as well say "whoops, CN was a mistake" and further cement the "Only Good" limitation. Or he may change that to "any non-Evil". I honestly don't know, but until he gets back, it's not going anywhere.

My gut suspicion is that it's going to stay as "any Good" and the LORE listing of CN being available to clerics will be dropped as an error.

Quote from: Hellblazer

Bingo! My suggestion to this would be to expand the worshipers alignment to TN and CN but keep the restriction of the clerics to the existing alignment.

*points at Ed*

This is his call solely.

Hellblazer · « **Reply #13 on:** August 05, 2009, 10:56:53 pm »

Quote from: Dorganath

My gut suspicion is that it's going to stay as "any Good" and the LORE listing of CN being available to clerics will be dropped as an error.

This is his call solely.

If that happens though, it will definitely put a last nail in the coffin of any none cleric dark elf that would want to follow her, as they would not be of the right alignment to worship her. Which in turns makes no sense as az'atta was a dark elf who turned away from the ways of her people. She would primordially be aimed to redeem her people first. But if TN and CN are not viable alignment to be a worshiper, then it beats the purpose of that deity.

But as you said, waiting for ed to come back.

Pseudonym · « **Reply #14 on:** August 06, 2009, 12:15:06 am »

Quote from: Nehetsrev

Perhaps then it's ...

... for another thread.

Not want to derail the thread ... I can't say I disagree with you. I have always had issue with the idea of allowable 'gradual' change and disallowed 'revelation' changes of alignment. As you say, another thread and another time.

I have always drawn parallels from Az'atta to author David Gemmell's 'The Source'. A common theme in his books is the evil ne'er-do-well who has a change of heart at some point in the book and performs an act of selfless heroism, then promptly dies ... but only after he questions the novel's more obvious hero if this one deed can erase a lifetime of evil acts. The hero always tells the up-to-the-end villain that he thinks the 'Source' must find it so.

I think we're saying something close to the same thing?

Anyways, I agree with Hellblazer's proposition that Az'attan worshipper's allowed alignments should be broadened.

Dorganath · « **Reply #15 on:** August 06, 2009, 12:15:14 am »

Quote from: Hellblazer

But if TN and CN are not viable alignment to be a worshiper, then it beats the purpose of that deity.

But as you said, waiting for ed to come back.

No, I disagree, especially with the "last nail in the coffin" comment.

While I understand and am not really arguing with your stated point, the deity field is supposed to be there to show a very high level of devotion, not just "Hey, Az'atta sounds pretty nice and I agree with what She stands for. I think I'll pay observance to Her."...in other words, it's not for "casual worship". So it can be argued that given her dogma, those who truly worship her and have taken her dogma into their hearts and have embraced it fully would be of Good alignment.

Check out the definitions for True Neutral and Chaotic Neutral. They involve, lying, cheating, taking advantage of people and lots of other unsavory things that really don't mesh well with the concept of redemption.

Sure, Az'atta would see the potential in such individuals and Az'attans would try and bring them into the fold. Does this conflict between alignment and dogma mean that someone of TN or CN alignment cannot begin to see the "light" in Az'atta? Heck no!

I can surely see a TN or CN character being observant of Az'atta, but until such a character's whole mindset changes away from the (arguably) self-serving and/or apathetic and/or and truly embrace her dogma of redemption, then there's no reason why a mechanical benefit of worshiping Az'atta should be bestowed on anyone.

So I can see a very viable character concept being a dark elf of TN or CN alignment, who has left the Deep and who is trying to be better, trying to come to Az'atta fully, but who simply can't quite (yet) break all the old habits of his/her former life even though he/she may very much wish to do so. Along the path of character development, this character could eventually shift to Good (NG or CG) and that would be the last step on the path toward truly embracng Az'atta.

Anyway, that's just another perspective, not the "final word".

Point is that just because it's not permitted to have a dark elf character start with an alignment compatible with Az'atta unless he/she is a cleric does not mean that there's no viable means of having that character believe in Az'atta and eventually become a follower and then a true worshiper, the latter step gaining the mechanical population of the character's deity field.

Hellblazer · « **Reply #16 on:** August 06, 2009, 02:25:07 am »

hmm... are you saying that A starting TN DE could eventually become NG? I never thought of that as a possibility with the racial alignment settings.

s0ulz · « **Reply #17 on:** August 06, 2009, 03:23:25 am »

Quote from: Hellblazer

hmm... are you saying that A starting TN DE could eventually become NG? I never thought of that as a possibility with the racial alignment settings.

Again, there is a difference between submission alignment and progression of said alignment. Submissions are restricted, progressions generally not.

Dorganath · « **Reply #18 on:** August 06, 2009, 08:14:39 am »

Quote from: Hellblazer

hmm... are you saying that A starting TN DE could eventually become NG? I never thought of that as a possibility with the racial alignment settings.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying (well among other things). Dark Elves must be submitted as one of those four alignments, but there are no special restrictions on subsequent alignment shifts for dark elf characters. Of course, the character would have to be played as TN, in your example, for a time before the shift would be approved, but that's no different than any other character of any race.

Drizzlin · « **Reply #19 on:** August 06, 2009, 09:08:59 pm »

V3 was filled with amazing things that helped better the world of Layo in so many ways. One of my personal favorites was restricting the required alignment of starting monstrous races, such as dark elves, to a non good alignment.

Prior to this well thought out decision, the scale of good aligned dark elves and good aligned monstrous races was so skewed that it hurt the world over all IMO. The LORE told tales of how dark and evil these races were, yet everyone (i can say this with the old 5% error curve) in play were of good alignment.

Of course prior to V3 you were not allowed to start a PC at CC with an evil alignment and it had to be earned in game. Either way, I have always loved the new alignment requirements that V3 brought. Back before V3 so many were upset with how everyone treated dark elves with open arms and love. IMO some of underlining causes were that so many were of good alignment. It has taken some time, but you no longer see the open doors and loving hand outs being given to Dark Elf and monstrous races these days. At least not at the broad spectrum as before.

This doesn't mean that I am saying that the Az'atta requirements make perfect sense, but I understand the importance of why those changes came. Sometimes a few irregulars are left in order to make everything else make sense.