Author Topic: Understanding Deliar summons (Read 969 times)

blonde · « **on:** August 28, 2008, 09:53:23 pm »

Im having some problems wrapping my head around the Deliar summons being shadows. I have looked through all the documentation on Deliar, and cant find any references to shadows or the like.

I find it strange that a good aligned god of trade, family and luck would summon evil undead. Maybe there is some master plan behind this im not seeing, or i missed something?

Some elemental or maybe golem seems to be a better fit in my opinion.

Hellblazer · « **Reply #1 on:** August 28, 2008, 10:33:22 pm »

correct me if I'm wrong, but shadows are not necessarily evil.

blonde · « **Reply #2 on:** August 28, 2008, 10:45:07 pm »

The summons are. Undead, Chaotic Evil.

Hellblazer · « **Reply #3 on:** August 28, 2008, 10:54:20 pm »

Well not too sure where you get this, I don't get any alignment from my searches on lore. Even from nwnwiki, there is no mention of an alignment

blonde · « **Reply #4 on:** August 28, 2008, 11:00:56 pm »

I get it by examining the summon

Stephen_Zuckerman · « **Reply #5 on:** August 28, 2008, 11:05:05 pm »

This is an unfortunate NWN Game Mechanic - a Bioware issue. The "Shadows" are literally that, in the game world - animated shadows that move around, tricksy-like. Think Peter Pan.

Shadows (well, Shades) in traditional D&D (and, by extension, NWN) are actually the dark spirits of the dead, risen to wreak havoc.

Come on, Blonde. Project Team, and you've not seen this very subject come up before?

Tobias · « **Reply #6 on:** August 28, 2008, 11:37:20 pm »

Despite if they (the shadows) are evil or not, I think the more important question would be why a god of luck, travel and family have shadows as summons?

I am sure there is a good reason for it and can't wait to read it!

Stephen_Zuckerman · « **Reply #7 on:** August 28, 2008, 11:45:14 pm »

Deliar is the Lucky Traveler - the very embodiment of fortune in all its fickle glory. Shadows, which dart about, hide in themselves, and can play with the mind itself... What is more appropriate for Fate?

blonde · « **Reply #8 on:** August 29, 2008, 01:19:57 am »

Obviously you know more of the philosophy of fate than i do...

I second Tobias' post.

Acacea · « **Reply #9 on:** August 29, 2008, 07:59:30 pm »

Shadows are not the perfect summons, but several of the gods don't have perfect ones, either. Barring a revamp, think creatively. As mentioned, there is no real need to look at creature alignment on the char sheet and assume he is summoning CE things from the nether worlds.

If I were going to make Deliar new summons, I would have to think about it... I don't really see him as much of a summoner type in the first place. I would probably go with wind and travel types, or wanderers from ye far off heavens...perhaps even have a random assortment. Pokemon toss coin I choose you dependent on what side it lands on, who knows! Or animated wagon wheels

So, barring that, Stephen has a decent interpretation of the shadows. About all you can do is fit what exists in and hope for better days for the summons of the Wind of Fate/Lucky Wanderer! Assuming there is always a good reason for everything is not always the case... typically it's a matter of zots. Goran is perfect for the constructs, is Lucinda a perfect fit for it? Or, when the creatures themselves look like a good fit, but their abilities don't... like the elements for Aeridin, but is the mass drown really all that suitable?

Eyvind · « **Reply #10 on:** August 30, 2008, 12:47:23 am »

Does the allignment of something that doesn't have free will matter?

Stephen_Zuckerman · « **Reply #11 on:** August 30, 2008, 01:06:48 am »

Quote from: eyvind

Does the allignment of something that doesn't have free will matter?

Summons DO have free will! They're not Dominated to you, only inclined to serve you because you're the one who pulled them to the Coil.

But to answer the question directly, yes. It still does. An evil creature who is mentally dominated is STILL evil. Likewise, a good creature who is mentally dominated is STILL good.

Eyvind · « **Reply #12 on:** August 30, 2008, 04:22:45 am »

I suppose my question shouldn't have been posted here, but I know the answer to it now, at least my answer. And really, the question was oversimplified.

EDIT: Bah! I'm sorry for posting another useless post to explain away my first useless post.

What I meant to say by that question was more along the lines of this.

If someone has the power to summon a being to them and have that being obey their commands, the actions of the summoned being would reflect the alignment of whoever it obeys rather than on its own alignment. I can think of many explanations for an Evil summoned being to obey the commands of a Good person (though most of those explanations are probably unfounded in Layo, since I'm a newbie here). I think the alignments of summoned beings, whether unintuitive or not, are a glimpse of the complexities of the Deites and their ways.

Imagine this scenario, for example:

A deity might give a cleric access to a plane of beings, but on the other end of it perhaps -- due to some agreement, disagreement, or whatever -- the deity has given those beings an opportunity to come (back, maybe) to the cleric's plane. Because the deity gave the beings that opportunity, they obey Her cleric's commands as their end of the bargain. Or maybe it's not an agreement and the being is summoned by the cleric as punishment being delt by the cleric's deity, in which case the summoned creature obeys the cleric as part of the punishment.

That might not even remotely compare to anything in Layo, partly due to it being a Human scenario, and partly due to -- you know -- me being a noob.

For that reason, it's not a problem (not "it doesn't matter" like I said originally) that a summoned being is a strange alignment considering the deity and the character worshipping the deity.

Link092 · « **Reply #13 on:** August 30, 2008, 11:01:18 am »

well, you RP it as if good has triumphed over evil. For what better humiliation for an evil being is there than to serve under the goodly command of a Deliarite? besides, Deliar has a domain of trickery ( i think, might not be right, but anyways,) and he could have tricked the shadows into servitude.

It's a matter of taste, I guess.

Don't mind me.

Link092 · « **Reply #14 on:** August 30, 2008, 11:04:39 am »

Quote from: Link092

well, you RP it as if good has triumphed over evil. For what better humiliation for an evil being is there than to serve under the goodly command of a Deliarite? besides, Deliar has a domain of trickery ( i think, might not be right, but anyways,) and he could have tricked the shadows into servitude.

That is Idoran-ism... has his own philosophy.

Acacea · « **Reply #15 on:** August 30, 2008, 11:33:51 am »

It is a valid point to give examples of how such things could occur, but my own was attempting to state that we don't have truly individual summons and can't really go by the character sheet. In other words, who said they were evil in the first place?

blonde · « **Reply #16 on:** August 30, 2008, 02:04:02 pm »

As i read this so far, it sounds like it's up to myself to determine the reasons behind and the "character" of the summons.

So i could say my summons arent shadows at all, but actually very suntanned lawful-good merchants from another plane?

The reason i asked the question above was to get some direction on it, if possible. I havent really seen any other summons being interpreted as anything other than what they really are (except for Celgar claiming that he build the golems he summoned himself).

Despite the fact that we dont have truly individual summons for each deity, i think that the deity summons (besides Deliar) are pretty fitting for each of them.

Quote from: Link092

besides, Deliar has a domain of trickery

No he certainly does not. The "tricky" halfling god is Branderback who governs stealth, night and darkness. So his shadow summons are very spot on.

Acacea · « **Reply #17 on:** August 30, 2008, 02:17:10 pm »

I wasn't talking individually but as a group, except for the alignments, where I was just saying that there's no real reason to assume they're evil. In other words, there isn't one, but we could probably make it fit in various fashions. I'm not sure what you're looking for - there isn't a magic answer that is going to make you happy, and if there was it would probably be made up right then. No, it doesn't fit. No, it's probably not going to be revamped in NWN. But we could probably think about and find ways to make it work out, heh.

Link092 · « **Reply #18 on:** August 30, 2008, 02:42:03 pm »

Quote from: blonde

No he certainly does not. The "tricky" halfling god is Branderback who governs stealth, night and darkness. So his shadow summons are very spot on.

thanks for that... I never read up much on the gods domains... I sorta ignored that part.

that was just my two cents.

EdTheKet · « **Reply #19 on:** August 31, 2008, 10:35:00 am »

They're not sun-tanned halfling merchants from another plane

And despite Celgar's claims, he did not build his golems, they were summoned.

In any case, we will not be changing the summons as that would use time from people working on the MMO. So they will remain shadows (which aren't undead even though NWN says they are).