Use of Draconic Language

[Rowana]

Hi there...

Just for some clarity, I'm not seeing where there's a sect of the Aragenites who speak Draconic, nor one that is a Teacher of said language. I've reviewed the lore I wrote and... I don't have anything in there... I realize that it might be implied/interpreted a certain way in the Dragonlinks text that the Aragenite Scholars might host many speakers of Draconic but that would be a flawed interpretation. Aragenites as potential teachers of Draconic should be struck/stricken/removed from the above list of 'NPCs who know...'

I'm not saying that there aren't Aragenites out there who might have either beginning understanding of or even fully attained knowledge of the dragon tongue/ear/language but there are not vast numbers of them who speak it. It would be a rare, rare instance if it is indeed a fact.

Additionally, not all Aragenites share the teacher's philosophy. Many are more like 'hoarders' rather then 'sharers' (Kind of old world dragon-like!). I feel it's important to note that the Teaching Sect is very new in the grand scheme of things and as a result very small. Suggesting that they would spread a language of any kind the world over (excepting Common) in a short span is actually a pretty incorrect.

It bears reminding that Draconic is actually a rather dangerous language to know. One might compare the hoarding of the dragon's language to the supposed hoarding of Elvish. While Elvish is guarded by most elves and not taught to outsiders to protect their culture, dragons might actually go out of their way to kill those who have an understanding of the dragon's language.

Further derailment... I know... It needed to be clarified however.

@Jrizz, read the info linked in Acacea's post on Lucindite Sects.

~row

[jrizz]

@Row I did read it. I was just wondering if he was once a PC. Seems a really cool role to lock into a NPC.

Anyway to one Acacea's points, would not old Rork there be, from the start, a really big part of the current plot? Maybe he already is and I just have never heard of him (could happen LOL). But if not, we should really tap that guy.

[Rowana]

Rork is already involved with the plot. That's all I can comment on. Any further should probably be discovered IG through IC means.

~row

[Dezza]

The PC that spoke Draconic was Quintain Rosewarne (I think thas how it was spelt). It took him a great deal of effort and time to learn some of the language. Even he was not an expert by any means.

I have spent a great deal of time and effort in the past trying to gain insight into the draconic language, first with Tarradon and then with Sasha to no avail despite great efforts in this regard.

It has always been portrayed as a suitably epic beyond epic achievement to learn draconic.

The Rofireinites have ancient texts that contain some draconic but certainly not much to be able to suddenly forge a live language from it.

Today however the dragons have returned, this may provide a new vehicle for future PC's to be able to learn draconic from the returned dragons, if they can find one who is willing to teach them. My question to that would be..why should they.

Am I bitter and twisted about the apparent unavailability of Draconic for PC's, absolutely! Am I willing to see it allowed for PC's with relaxed restrictions from what it has been in the past? No way. And yes I am probably being a bit selfish in this regard. I've poured my heart and soul into Rofirein since I started playing here many years ago and still have never been able to achieve it. Tarradon Duvall tried the most and it was made clear then that Draconic was a no go...he learn't a bit from Quintain over the years which appeased me somewhat. Sasha was my next attempt and even though she was twice Tarradons level in the end she learnt even less.

I know people are going to post, yes well it took me this long to achieve this, and this long to achieve that and thats fine, congrats! and well done. I'm referring to this little, insignificant to some, but important to me, pet disappointment of my time on Layo.


When I see players post, and I quote Acacea here:

'We have now established the Dragonlinks and the scholars of Aragen and of course Rofireinites speaking Draconic as if it were not a rarity...'

I cringe inside and start to rock at its implications. My first thoughts are when? How? and why? Because as far as I am concerned this is not the case, but, I have corrected another GM before using a Rofireinite speaking Draconic when such should not be the case. If a player can make a statement such as the one here based on a mistake a GM has made then so be it, but when its not corrected it creates misconceptions like we have here.

I'll stop now because I've lost track of where I was going with this and since this is one area I still feel pain from  I better go and relax.

[Script Wrecked]

I was just wondering if he was once a PC.

If being Dragon Called was strictly the providence of PCs, then this would allude to O'Mallory having been once a PC:

... as well as having been one of the Dragon Called before Ozlo's death.

Otherwise, not. :rolleyes:

Regards,

Script Wrecked.

[Pibemanden]

If being Dragon Called was strictly the providence of PCs, then this would allude to O'Mallory having been once a pc

It wasn't, there were NPCs in the previous plot who were dragon called... Or at least NPCs who were dragon called even back then

[Filatus]

Yep, remember a few on The Hunt, which was quite some time ago.

[Dorganath]

Anyway to one Acacea's points, would not old Rork there be, from the start, a really big part of the current plot? Maybe he already is and I just have never heard of him (could happen LOL). But if not, we should really tap that guy.

As Row said, he is involved.  Most visibly, he was at Daniella's meeting to discuss an alliance against the Cult in Huangjin a little while back.  I think Wren was even there too. *smiles*

If being Dragon Called was strictly the providence of PCs, then this would allude to O'Mallory having been once a PC

Being Dragoncalled was not strictly the providence of the PCs, and neither is being Stonebound.  All PCs were (at the time) Dragoncalled, but not all Dragoncalled were PCs, just as now all PCs are Stonebound but not all Stonebound are PCs.

So no, Rork was not formerly a PC, though we do have examples of those that were throughout the game world, whether from the NWN version or Leanthar's original PnP campaign (Alexei, Rainstroff, Eon, Katia...to name a few).

[Acacea]

No one said he wasn't involved. The key phrase in jrizz's post was, "from the start." I acknowledged his involvement when I commented on the sect being posted halfway through, a bit like the Reaching being posted for Storold's hearing.

Regarding rowana's post, the potential for misunderstanding was kind of why I posted the question about editing. It was also suggested that the Dragonlinks did not have many speakers at all, but the sect summary states that there is a bevy of speakers, the leader is quite fluent and has a personal dragon friend and was involved with all those past PC dealin's with dragons, and that while they have the pond in matters arcane, the Aragenites are far and away the leaders in the realm of dragonlore. You think I'm harping on a phrase, but that's why I'm saying it can be as simple as a few edits to completely change the tone.

I did not say there was a specific sect for draconic teachers in Aragen's faith, I said that they held the "undisputed bulk of knowledge..." regarding them, putting them above even Lucinda's sect, and Gulnyr commented on the nature of Aragenites in general as enlighteners of the world in combination. (Though it appears that that is not a priority any longer!)

It is about representation and interpretation.

That was the purpose. If your statements regarding Aragen's faith are considered fact, then the ones in the Lucinda page are very open to misinterpretation and can be edited. Ed said he was going to look at it. Pointing out that there is a misunderstanding is like coming into LA rush hour and saying "cars are stopped!" "We know!" We are attempting to make it consistent so that if you say that very few Aragenites speak the language, that the Dragonlink page doesn't imply otherwise, that if the Dragonlinks themselves are only few in number or rarely speak the tongue, that it is not implied otherwise. If there is misunderstanding, to tweak phrasing or word choice to make clear the potency of ye olde NPC powers.

[miltonyorkcastle]

Milty's thoughts and opinions, not verified as accurate:

I would imagine there are far more non-dragons that can read and potentially write draconic but not be able to speak it. Learning to read and write a language is such a different thing from learning to speak it. In many senses, reading and writing draconic should be much more feasible than attempting to speak a language spoken by lizards. Most scholars would have little use with speaking the language anyway, but being able to read and write it would be a significant skill, and I would think that simply having access to ancient texts in draconic would have pushed the curious to pursue an understanding of how the written side of the language works, and to write at least one discourse on the basics of interpreting written draconic.

I suppose that doesn't really touch on the rarity of draconic speakers/readers/writers as a whole, but rather in relation to each other.

[Dorganath]

Yeah, you know...just forget I said anything in this thread.  

The point was to illustrate that within the NPC population as a whole, which vastly outnumbers the PC population and even the select NPCs and NPC groups that are written up in our lore, the command of the Draconic language is a very rare thing.

I did not expect my few words would be minced and dissected with as much energy and enthusiasm. I did not mean for anyone to become irritated at an apparent (and unintended) contradiction. I did not think that the statement of rarity was not supported by lore, but it appears that this is not a universal perception.

I'll let Ed handle it from here and keep my opinions on the matter to myself.

[Kaail]

*pats dorg on the back*

It's okay, this happens to me too

[Acacea]

I'm sorry that you feel that way or feel that your opinions are not welcomed or relevant. The point I was intending to make was not that it is not rare, but that the view of most people and GMs is exactly as you say, while the writing itself to those of us reading it seems to not be the same. The discussion is not whether or not it is rare, just how really inaccessible it would remain according to the text and if there are changes to either that can be made that would make it more visibly consistent to those of us that read it quite differently and feel that an OOC rule is the only thing making it "impossible" for our PCs at any level to achieve something NPCs gather to do. Once Ed said he would look at it I was fine waiting to see what he thought.

If it was made directed at the "from the start" comment, I clarified that because it was relating to what I said in one of my earliest posts, and saying "is involved" was not the point of that. It did not make the other post untrue. *shrugs*

[Dorganath]

Well...no.

Apparently I've been misunderstood again, but I'm not sure I could clarify.

You're absolutely right; it's all about perception, and in this case my own statement of perception was met not with a simple, "hey, this seems to be contradicted now or at least confusing" but rather a lengthy retort on just how wrong it was. But it's fine. If I'm wrong or the team is wrong, that's fine. We'll make it work.

Anyway, I'm not concerned and there's no need to apologize. I'm not stepping back because I feel my comments are "irrelevant" or "unwanted", but rather because despite my intentions, I'm not adding positively to the discussion. I figure three "strikes" in one thread was sign enough that I should just step away and stop trying to explain, help or clarify. I truly did not expect such an empassioned response nor such a detailed disassembly of such few words.

No harm, no foul. Like I said, I'll leave this in Ed's hands.

[jrizz]

As Row said, he is involved.  Most visibly, he was at Daniella's meeting to discuss an alliance against the Cult in Huangjin a little while back.  I think Wren was even there too. *smiles*

Thank you for the reminder! Now that Wren knows about him, he can go see him whoo hooo!

[Dezza]

The problem here to I think Acacea is that Lore is an incredibly complex and vast entity of itself. There are so many different poeple having input into it over a long period of time there will indeed be some discrepencies.

I think if people are willing to bring them to peoples attention in order to review them as Ed has agreed to do rather than assume they are 100% accurate lore and true stories and almost indicate that we have done something wrong and have deliberately messed up someones ideas of something it would be far more beneficial.

I know thats probably not your intention in this thread and reading words never truly gives you an indication of the tone someone means it to sound like but I get the feel from this thread that you think we have done the player base a disservice by having something conflicting in Lore or unclear.

People need to understand that sometimes too what is in Lore is heresay or a story of something and may not be the absolute truth and this is deliberate. I know thats not the case in this instance but a simple. Hey Ed, can you check if this is right because it conflicts with this and this would have, I am thinking, been more than adequate.

Managing Lore is never easy in such a dynamic and rich environment such as Layonara and yes there will always be mistakes and conflicting information, people just have to accept that, deal with it when it arises and continue to move forward. Its just one of those things people need to give those who manage it a fair break.

[Gulnyr]

I'm not saying that there aren't Aragenites out there who might have either beginning understanding of or even fully attained knowledge of the dragon tongue/ear/language but there are not vast numbers of them who speak it. It would be a rare, rare instance if it is indeed a fact.

There may be a little miscommunication between all of us around the word "speak."  Used in the quote and in Milt's post, "speaking draconic" is literally making words with the mouth, and it's perfectly reasonable that humanoid faces can't just do that.  I think some of Acacea's (and maybe others') "speaking draconic" just refers to knowing the language, more or less synonymous with "having the ear."  If a character "speaks elven," it means that character has the ear for elven language even if elven words never come out, y'know?  I'm pointing that out because I was reading back through and I'm not sure we're all on the same point sometimes.

Additionally, not all Aragenites share the teacher's philosophy. Many are more like 'hoarders' rather then 'sharers' (Kind of old world dragon-like!). I feel it's important to note that the Teaching Sect is very new in the grand scheme of things and as a result very small. Suggesting that they would spread a language of any kind the world over (excepting Common) in a short span is actually a pretty incorrect.

I think my point remains valid.  If there is one Teacher who can read and write draconic, it is only a matter of time before the knowledge spreads among those who want to know how to read and write it.  It doesn't even have to be an Aragenite Teacher.  If there is any individual who knows and is willing to teach others, the knowledge would spread.  It's just that a member of the Teacher sect is in a position to spread it farthest fastest.  The more people who know, even if there are many hoarders, the faster it spreads.  The more "lubrication" there is, like, say, plenty of money changing hands, the faster it spreads.  Looking back to the first quote above regarding Aragenites "having the ear" and assuming something similar is also true for the Dragonlinks (ie, the LORE page is right about plenty of translators), how is it at all possible to say knowledge of reading and writing the language wouldn't spread at a fair pace or that anyone who wanted to learn would have trouble finding someone to instruct him?  It's just fiat to say no one who knows would teach others at any cost.  That's just the OOC rule with some very poor IC dressing on it.

I'd like to offer a limitation of some sort to help out, but I can't think of anything that isn't just nonsense, like that one at the end of the previous paragraph.  The plain OOC rule about not learning from NPCs is actually less irritating.

[Cinnabar]

... who can read and write draconic ...

I'd raise a semi-ignorant question here: Draconic is a written language? why? Have dragons written? ^^

"speaking draconic" just refers to knowing the language, more or less synonymous with "having the ear."

That however -does- make sense to me... the ability to learn a language from immersive exposure, listening in context, even if never being able to speak it.

[Gulnyr]

I'd raise a semi-ignorant question here: Draconic is a written language? why? Have dragons written?

Apparently so.  Jennara has come across multiple written examples of draconic, like the big, bronze plaque thing in the forgotten temple of Kraraxeni, which Jennara made rubbings of on a couple of pieces of cloth.

That however -does- make sense to me... the ability to learn a language from immersive exposure, listening in context, even if never being able to speak it.

That does make sense but is not what I was saying.  I meant it like "having an ear for halfling language in my inventory," not like "having an ear for music."

[Rowana]

I think my point remains valid.  If there is one Teacher who can read and write draconic, it is only a matter of time before the knowledge spreads among those who want to know how to read and write it.  It doesn't even have to be an Aragenite Teacher.  If there is any individual who knows and is willing to teach others, the knowledge would spread.  It's just that a member of the Teacher sect is in a position to spread it farthest fastest.  The more people who know, even if there are many hoarders, the faster it spreads.  The more "lubrication" there is, like, say, plenty of money changing hands, the faster it spreads.  Looking back to the first quote above regarding Aragenites "having the ear" and assuming something similar is also true for the Dragonlinks (ie, the LORE page is right about plenty of translators), how is it at all possible to say knowledge of reading and writing the language wouldn't spread at a fair pace or that anyone who wanted to learn would have trouble finding someone to instruct him?  It's just fiat to say no one who knows would teach others at any cost.  That's just the OOC rule with some very poor IC dressing on it.

I'm only going to address this point the rest should be handled by the LoreMaster with whatever comes of his discussion/thinking stuff.

My point was trying to be clarifying without painting any other GMs into the corner. There is no lore stating that there are a large or even small number of draconic speaking Aragenites at this time. The entry under the Lucnidite Dragonlinks should be interpreted as Aragenites hold the largest recorded lore on dragons (somewhere) of any group, not counting the dragons themselves. This is not to say that it's been locked down and away so that GMs cannot create for their quest needs in the future. At least for the Aragenite Teachers, there is no one teaching Draconic, nor any willing sorts to teach in the faith  out in the world at this time.

As to other people teaching Draconic, and I'll happily accept LoreMaster correction here, but if it were actively being taught around the world I'm 99% certain the dragons would collectively put a stop to it and perhaps begin eradicating speakers of Draconic (including their own who are willing to teach) from the lands of Layonara. This isn't fabrication to explain why it isn't spreading the world over at any kind of speed, it's an honest evaluation from me (see also: not official Team stance) on the current lore of dragons in Layonara. Therefore, anyone speaking/reading/writing Draconic likely has a self imposed tether or a more literal tether to any number of dragons currently in existence.

~row