Use of Draconic Language

[Filatus]

To me it always seemed like Aragenites are more about hoarding knowledge than spreading it, And after all, the search for knowledge is as important as acquiring it. Apart from that, they're encouraged to take as neutral a stance as possible.

And I wouldn't consider arming Stonebounds with knowledge in the war against the Cult, very neutral.

Edit: Though, after having typed that and reading up on Aragen's Teachers, I am starting to doubt whether I have a good understanding of the faith. Since we've been talking about perspective and all.

[Pseudonym]

This is why I play a rogue. He learnt elven in order to woo a woman. He cares little for subtleties of faith and dogma. He is mostly happy to leave dragons to entertain themselves. I am the kind of player Dorg loves (in principle anyway).

[Acacea]

If the interpretation of any of my posts at any time has been that I believe or accuse the team to be deliberately confusing players or otherwise causing hardship in interpretations then I would absolutely clarify. I am perfectly aware of complications in writing consistency and have pointed many out to different people over time, to the point of arguing through PMs about whether or not something is true to its intent. I have been in PM whirlwinds over something being changed that I felt strongly contradicted established knowledge, and have also made posts in defense of the team elsewhere when a decision based on whatever is accurate.

Not all of my suggestions made it to the right people and were never addressed, but some have been pretty public and have seemed to just be how things are going to be with relation to a subject, and become something to be resigned to. My original comment on this subject was a leap of opportunity, not because I wished to rub Dorg's face or yours into your horrible player-misleading ways, but because it appeared that one thing was still standard while writing suggested another, and I wished to bring them together, to whatever standard was kept. I was surprised and pleased at Ed's reply just saying he would even look, and was wagging-tailed content to wait and see what occurred. In the meantime I suggested possible ways you could account for both NPC speakers and the very slow spread depending on how someone wanted to do it.

After that there was a little frustration, the kind that you start getting a hint of when you're almost being misquoted but not quite. All the discussion on whether or not we were right about how draconic is or isn't was pointless to me, because my only concern was matching it. That's why I said it could be as simple as a minor edit or choice of words and really wouldn't be a big deal to adjust if it was found to be a bit much.

Regarding hearsay, perception was the point. If it is hearsay, it should not be written with a third party biased source, not the objective omnipotent used to pass GM information to players for use.

Once again, if any indication was given that I believe someone is seriously doing it on purpose rather than just having a lot of people submitting different things, that was incredibly far from my intentions. And, once again, I cannot speak for others but I certainly have made many comments and suggestions of the kind in the past and have gotten quite worn out with their reception and cool treatment, which has led to me often knee-jerk grumbling ahead of time in expectation of the response. Ed's reply was a pleasant and straightforward surprise to me that I was happy with, but that doesn't make it always so. I am much more used to the other responses, which are "you're reading it wrong" or "I don't think there are really that many" and "I would be really bitter if you lowered the requirements." I don't really care about all of that.

I'm not exactly asking anyone to be drawn and quartered. I just asked to look at the phrasing to see if it could be worded differently, more in line with whatever expectations were to be had regarding the language.

*shrugs* Wording and perception - if you don't get what I said, then it is as much my fault for the way I chose to write it than in the way you read it, if my interest is really in making my meaning clear. That's unfortunately why I also keep typing when it appears it is not in my best interest.

PS Filatus, Aragenites used to be completely gung-ho share knowledge with the world, and had bad vibes with Lucinda because of her refusal to share the higher mysteries and whatnot Remember the tomes? They only got packed up when the islands were attacked, because the world did not seem ready for knowledge. Until then there was one in every temple. Now it seems like there is more room for hoarders, but at the time it really seemed anti-Aragenite to not share wisdom and enlightenment.

The problem here to I think Acacea is that Lore is an incredibly complex and vast entity of itself. There are so many different poeple having input into it over a long period of time there will indeed be some discrepencies.

I think if people are willing to bring them to peoples attention in order to review them as Ed has agreed to do rather than assume they are 100% accurate lore and true stories and almost indicate that we have done something wrong and have deliberately messed up someones ideas of something it would be far more beneficial.

I know thats probably not your intention in this thread and reading words never truly gives you an indication of the tone someone means it to sound like but I get the feel from this thread that you think we have done the player base a disservice by having something conflicting in Lore or unclear.

People need to understand that sometimes too what is in Lore is heresay or a story of something and may not be the absolute truth and this is deliberate. I know thats not the case in this instance but a simple. Hey Ed, can you check if this is right because it conflicts with this and this would have, I am thinking, been more than adequate.

Managing Lore is never easy in such a dynamic and rich environment such as Layonara and yes there will always be mistakes and conflicting information, people just have to accept that, deal with it when it arises and continue to move forward. Its just one of those things people need to give those who manage it a fair break.

[EdTheKet]

This became a long thread!

I looked at the text in question and can see where it doesn't match how we're portraying the extent of the number of people speaking draconic, it being taught and all that.
I'll have it remedied in the near future. However, there's also some points I have to talk to Leanthar about and he's out until the end of the week so I'll get back to this later and cover it all in one go (I hope, if not you're all vocal enough to ask ).

[Gulnyr]

As to other people teaching Draconic, and I'll happily accept LoreMaster correction here, but if it were actively being taught around the world I'm 99% certain the dragons would collectively put a stop to it and perhaps begin eradicating speakers of Draconic (including their own who are willing to teach) from the lands of Layonara. This isn't fabrication to explain why it isn't spreading the world over at any kind of speed, it's an honest evaluation from me (see also: not official Team stance) on the current lore of dragons in Layonara. Therefore, anyone speaking/reading/writing Draconic likely has a self imposed tether or a more literal tether to any number of dragons currently in existence.

I can dig it.  As long as we can agree dragons don't see everything and that there must be people to whom the reward of teaching or learning outweighs the risk of being eaten, then I can't complain.  In other words, it's basically analogous to drug trafficking: the dragons are the cops, the language is the drug, the teachers are the suppliers and dealers, and the learners are the buyers.  Learning draconic is something that goes on behind closed doors.

[Rowana]

I can dig it.  As long as we can agree dragons don't see everything and that there must be people to whom the reward of teaching or learning outweighs the risk of being eaten, then I can't complain.  In other words, it's basically analogous to drug trafficking: the dragons are the cops, the language is the drug, the teachers are the suppliers and dealers, and the learners are the buyers.  Learning draconic is something that goes on behind closed doors.

I actually can't agree to that! For lore reasons I won't openly share (but I know you, Gulnyr, have access to that information!) there are 'some' dragons who could see such events if they were looking for them! That is not to say that they would look, that they would know -where- to look, etc, etc. There's plenty of realistic factors that would narrow the risk but the possibility is there that they might be able to discover what is going on even behind only mediocre scrying wards....

But yes, none of them are All-Seeing (except for the godly types and, well, you know how that kind of involvement goes!) and there would have to be exceptional precautions taken but it -could- be done without their knowledge.

~row

[miltonyorkcastle]

For lore reasons I won't openly share (but I know you, Gulnyr, have access to that information!) there are 'some' dragons who could see such events if they were looking for them!

Even in dead magic areas? Maybe they don't bother with the Al'Noth and use blood pools to handle the magic instead. :p I mean, who needs the Al'noth when you have a blood pool at your disposal? **starts running from all the Lucindite magic missiles, yelling back over a shoulder** I'm starting a draconic language school in the Great Rift! Who's joining me? And as an added bonus, all the dark elves you could ever wish to eat!

[drakogear]

Wow! this thread has grown sins I first posted it and a bit away from my intended question witch was mostly if Pseudodragons could speak and understand draconic but that was answers way at the start so no harm. Guess I'll have to think of some other way the young sorcerers Pseudodragon tells him of his fathers secret studies of the dragons. Namely the learning and practice of draconic language... if that's even submittable at start.

BTW, yes this is a character though that I might submit some day and with the primary goal for him is becoming an RDD. In a since, furthering his own draconic studies.

Why? Cause... I like dragons. *points to name and portrait* Cant you tell.

[Acacea]

Namely the learning and practice of draconic language... if that's even submittable at start.

It's not.

[drakogear]

awwww, but if there no player that knows it then how is he supposed to learn it? One thing about this character in mind is that he strives to learn as much as he can about dragons. learning draconic would be of greatly valuable help in that.

[Gulnyr]

One thing about this character in mind is that he strives to learn as much as he can about dragons. learning draconic would be of greatly valuable help in that.

Access to draconic writings is very limited.  Jennara, all forty levels of her, has seen a handful of draconic writings in her whole life.  That's more than a century, with deep involvement on some very dragony quests, and she's a halfling so that's also a tiny hand.  Knowing draconic is not nearly as important for learning about dragons as you might think.

[darkstorme]

... and she's a halfling so that's also a tiny hand ...

*grins*

[drakogear]

Well, may not be a deeply needed skill but would still say that knowing the language would be of great help. After all how would we know all there is we know about ancient egiptions if no one was able to speak and understand there writings. We would have strange looking eye, standing spear man, three kneeling men, A beetle, a bird and some wavy lines. For one to study something ancient yet not know anything about how to speak there ancient language or atleast understand the writings would get an archeologist practically no where. So knowledge of the language even if partial would still be valuable to studying them.

[darkstorme]

Well, may not be a deeply needed skill but would still say that knowing the language would be of great help. After all how would we know all there is we know about ancient egiptions if no one was able to speak and understand there writings. We would have strange looking eye, standing spear man, three kneeling men, A beetle, a bird and some wavy lines. For one to study something ancient yet not know anything about how to speak there ancient language or atleast understand the writings would get an archeologist practically no where. So knowledge of the language even if partial would still be valuable to studying them.

In fairness, no living individual speaks ancient Egyptian.  A few speak its descendant, Coptic, but, barring time travel, the original spoken language has been lost forever.

And many archeologists specialize in Ancient Crete and the Minoan civilization - and there's no one who can even read the written language of the time, let alone speak it.  And yet, a great deal is known about the Minoans from that period, both from discovered artifacts and - particularly pertinent to your request - the writings of those civilizations whose writing we can read that were contemporary.

Elves, humans, dwarves, and the other humanoid races were all out and about at the same time as a great number of dragons.  Given the nature of the relationship between them, it's a safe bet that there are lots of ancient records, either archived or hidden away, in antiquated dialects of modern languages, easily interpretable.

Given the dearth of those who speak Draconic, and the distinct shortage of written works in the language, it would make more sense for an intended scholar of Dragonkind to pick up other languages than it would for them to learn the tongue of the great wyrms.

[Gulnyr]

Given the dearth of those who speak Draconic, and the distinct shortage of written works in the language, it would make more sense for an intended scholar of Dragonkind to pick up other languages than it would for them to learn the tongue of the great wyrms.

Or even to make friends with a dragon.  It's particularly tough to befriend a dragon but not impossible, and they often speak "lesser languages" that are easy for our characters to learn.  That's pretty extreme, yeah, but information would come straight from the horse's mouth* that way, and one friendly dragon could easily say more than is likely ever to be found written anywhere by any of our characters.  And since every dragon I've ever seen has been loath to speak draconic to the lesser races, knowing the language really doesn't help at all.

Written draconic really is especially rare, by the way.  That's not just some exaggeration we're tossing out.  Egyptian hieroglyphics are not a good analogy.  Hieroglyphics can be found all over the place, written everywhere all over the Egyptian's stuff.  Draconic isn't like that.  In an old temple to a dragon god, there was one written example of the language, and it was only thirty words long (and a bunch of those were only 'of' and 'the').

*Don't say that IC.  Your character will be eaten.

[drakogear]

So... there actually not much use for PCs to learn draconic language? Hm, suppose would still be interesting in the least. Could I suppose try befriending a dragon and having him teach the sorcerer. Highly dought Fastion (can't spell name) would be all that willing to teach let alone befriend any lesser race... though is the only red dragon that can grant RDD... witch kinda sucks. Oh well... maybe IC perception hes not all that evil... he is lawfull after all so has to follow some code. What ever that may be. As long as he doesn't go about telling the neutral sorcerer to go about doing things of great evil.

[darkstorme]

So... there actually not much use for PCs to learn draconic language? Hm, suppose would still be interesting in the least. Could I suppose try befriending a dragon and having him teach the sorcerer. Highly doubt Fastion (can't spell name) would be all that willing to teach let alone befriend any lesser race... though is the only red dragon that can grant RDD... witch kinda sucks. Oh well... maybe IC perception hes not all that evil... he is lawful after all so has to follow some code. What ever that may be. As long as he doesn't go about telling the neutral sorcerer to go about doing things of great evil.

The general perception, in-game, about Fisterion is that he is extremely evil.  This doesn't mean he can't be reasoned with, but it does mean that the things he'd want a follower to do would generally be pretty awful.

And who ever said he was Lawful?  He's a follower of (and, it is rumoured, avatar and/or child of) Pyrtechon.  So the only code he's been known to follow is, "What would I like to do?"

[drakogear]

Ah... thought I saw some where that he was LE. Heh, my mistake. Well... being a neutral sorcerer he probably wouldn't have to much of a problem commuting evil... just not to extreme I would imagine.

Ok... question of RDD. Seeming the powers are only attained from being given from a dragon... does that mean they can take the powers away too? Like how a deity takes there powers away from a fallen cleric or paladin?

[darkstorme]

I can't speak to the mechanics of the class; I'll leave that to the people who were involved with the only other successful RDD ECDQ.

However, I think that it's a safe bet that if Fisterion granted RDD abilities to someone who then used them for a purpose that the King of Dragons disapproved of, having their powers removed would be the least of their worries.  I imagine Fisteion would revoke all their privileges.  Breathing, for one.

[drakogear]

Well... given the class description its morely attained with the awakening of the sorcerers/bards draconic blood. That becoming an infusion of the blood and I would imagine not really removable... aside from killing them.