What roll against what roll

[Guardian 452]

Do we have a list someplace giving tips, ideas, advice saying what roll to use again someones roll in an RP scenario.

Some examples:

Someone tried to bluff you.. obviously they roll a Bluff check.. do you just roll your own bluff check against it? Or something else entirely WIS, INT?

What about when someone tried to Intimidate you? Persuade you... etc etc.


A person casts spells at you using RP. What do you roll against that?

An RP'ed fight. We cant do a roll that shows our attack bonus or that shows our AC. Most fights ive seen just deal with STR and Dex... but just wondering if there is more options out there. Parry and tumble are a couple one could use I think.

I would love to have a stickied list that our player base could refer to, for those who dont know what to roll.... or arent sure what options they have, it maye help them and improve the RP experience all around.


Thanks!
G-452

[Pibemanden]

I would strongly advice against using stat-rolls to counter skill rolls, unless the stats are multiplied by some factor. The problem here is that skills grow way beyond anything any stat roll could ever counter rather fast

[Hellblazer]

Dorg once said that when someone uses a skill you respond with the skill. If it's an ability check, you respond with an ability check.

Some times if someont tries something, I'll use a save, like tries to punch Fehriel *str check* Feh *tries to block to punch* *reflex check* That's about the only time when I counter an ability with a save.

But usually if someone uses a bluff, I go for a bluff to.  Persuade check could potentially be a will save, or a discipline. But I mainly try to keep to ability vs ability, skills vs skills.

[Dorganath]

Generally skill vs. skill, attribute vs. attribute, etc.   Skill vs. Attribute, as Pibemanden said, is really not going to be a fair fight, since skills can get super-modified far in excess of attributes. They might work OK at low levels when things are more even, but once skill values start to outstrip attributes, it's pretty unbalanced.

For die-roll brawling...well it depends on the nature of the fight.  STR works well for wrestling, grappling and punching.  DEX works well for evading and things like...trying to catch your opponent's arm and twist it behind or something. Reflex saves in RPed combat would, in my mind, only come into play when one is not expecting to be attacked, and (again, my opinion) should only work for the first attack. After that, it's best to stick with the STR vs. DEX route. Similarly, if someone gets sucker-punched in the stomach suddenly, a failed reflex save might trigger a Fortitude save, and a failure of that might cause the punched person to double over.  You can do all sorts of things like that. I would not use Reflex in general to avoid attacks, however.

Alternately, you could get crazy and use d20 + your unarmed BAB vs. the  opponent's AC, but that can get complicated.  On the flip side, then you can mix in parry checks.  Of course at that point you might as well go to the Arena and duke it out.

This of course is my take on it.  What's most important is that people agree on things when engaging in this sort of activity.

[miltonyorkcastle]

There are several threads on this exact topic buried in these forums... and while I don't have the time to dig for them at present, if someone did want to make up a list of suggested checks and their counters, I'd be happy to peruse and comment. :p

[lonnarin]

Intimidate and bluff checks between players will almost always be opposed to the color of the text above the targets head.

Strangely enough, this is only half-true when the target is an NPC.  The bindstone-hopping expression "Effortless my *&#*%!!!" comes to mind here.

[Aerimor]

For combat there is a *Melee Check* command that uses your BAB or possibly your current attack value with weapon in hand.

I thought there was a range check or missile check but I can't remember it off hand.  

These would be useful for trick shots, crippling shots, or single 'bam now we are even or I have your attention attacks' that are not necessarily intended to lead into full combat.  

For combat the highest roll may always win.  But for counter skills like bluff, it's more about role play than strick numbers.

I think you'd need to be an epic bluffer to try to pull this off on any dwarf for instance. "Hey joe dwarf that's not a mithril nugget you just found, its actually a gold nugget.  See the shine and luster are outwide of the normal range because of this particular soil. It's very heavy in acidic compounds and dulls the gold's natural luster.  But hey, I'd be glad to take that -gold- nugget off your hands for fair market value."

So joe dwarf fighter might have no bluff, a horrible wisdom and will save and you may have a +28 bluff, but personally I'd think the dwarf would still have the edge in any opposed roll.  It's what they know.

Whereas, for instance.  Raz has a +30ish bluff but if -any- pretty lady came up to him, started flirting and ran a thought out scam on him, I'd likely use his will save as a counter (knowing it's lower and more approperiate because it involves a known Raz weakness-females.)  

Or in short there is leaway in the system, its not all hard and fast rules and things should be run on a honor system where you trust the other person to play their character while you play yours.  Don't just let the rolls dictate situation that are implossible.  If your Aeridinite hates all Corathites (as he better) I don't care how good of a persaude check the known Corathite throws, you're not likely to be his buddy and start buying him drinks.

A couple of coppers

[ycleption]

Well, as long as both players agree, you can use whatever roll you want to counter bluff.

A: I didn't steal the pie!

(Spot)
B: *points at a spot on A's clothes* What's that then?

(Wis)
B: *sarcastic* Suuuure... What about all the other 154-times then?

(Int)
B: Yes, you did! You stole my blueberry pie!
A: No, I didn't! Besides, it was a blackberry one!
*long silence*
A: Erh...

(Persuade)
B: *cries* That was my last one...
A: *looks ashamed* Um... *murmurs* Sorry...

(Str/Intimidate)
B: *holds his throat tightly* GIVE IT BACK TO ME!

(Pick Pocket)
B: Oh... my mistake... *takes A's purse* Nevermind...

from here: http://forums.layonara.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=399676

[Acacea]

Technically even those are number situations,  because DCs are modified by the ridiculousness of the claim, reasons to disbelieve, etc. You can convince a dwarf a nugget of mithril is a nugget of gold - it just depends on your skill and their experience, like any other metal worker. Difficult, yes Because you're not just taking into account your own skill, but the hoops you have to jump through to even seem remotely convincing. For that matter, even if you were completely awesome and succeeded, since you're a nancy elf he might say he doesn't care what you say and to go hug a tree.

...Then in private he may ask another dwarf what he thinks of this ore... hehe. "Ye nae think its too hoigh in acids or summat loike that?" "Ye daft?"

Intimidate is opposed by a modified level check - 1d20 + character level or Hit Dice + target’s Wisdom bonus (if any) + target’s modifiers on saves against fear (once again if any).

That is not +will save, that is "extra" will saves against fear. So for example a halfling would not get their total saves and the point against fear to add to the counter... just that extra number.

In the examples listed of agreed multi-counters, as long as both players agree, yeah of course. But strictly speaking these are all skills that would be used to modify the DC of the lie. As in, you lie to a ranger about tracks - he makes a spot check, sees orc instead of deer. Your bluff DC just doubled. Is it the 50th time you have told this lie and been caught out? Multiply the DC - works against you when you're innocent as well.

Since we don't have someone collecting all the reasons and putting them against the skill of the liar, it is easier to just use those alternative skills as one-shot counters as quoted by ycleption... but on DM quests it's more likely you'll be given a counter and options to modify the DCs. So you'll note the blackberry stain on the shirt and he might claim its blood - if you're gullible enough, you'll need an awful lot of evidence to counter the hole in your head! And if you're big enough and looking for someone to blame, it doesn't really matter if you believe it or not, does it? Most players already do these things though, and don't even try to roll a counter to such things with large, dumb PCs... and instead counter with "stop confusing! *strangle*"


Good users of persuade/bluff checks rely on things that are easy to believe, no matter how high their skill check. They will need those small "truths" in the impossible situations - an Aeridinite should not be won over by a Corathite, but tiny seeds of doubt add up. Combine them with other skills exactly the same way you would in a counter - spot and INT suggests where the victim was 5 minutes ago? Work it into the lie without them realizing you only saw the flour on the apron and it is suddenly a great deal more believable.

Ultimately though as has been stated multiple times, it's all about agreeing with one another on how the outcome is decided. I just personally don't like someone coming up to me and saying "the sun rises in the west *persuade check*" There are some skills that are more applicable than others