White Stag Armor Ban?

[Shrowd Umbra]

Just finished going through the hassle of putting together some armor. Found out two things: First that it has properties you need for fighting undead and vermin types, and second that it's note says the GMs frown on rangers wearing it because of oaths.

Shrowd never really made oaths to anyone in her bio or in game but it makes sense that the description says good aligned rangers shouldn't wear it. So should I be applying for a CDQ to get evil points or something for having made this supposedly evil item? Looks rather saintly if you ask me.

[Thief Of Navarre]

Im not a GM but isnt killing and skinning such a noble creature an act of evil (they are relatively non-hostile right)?

[Hellblazer]

No they are not until you manage to calm them. They will attack any one passing by them that are armed and armored. Clerica, rnagers and druid can calm them but other classes can't. As long as it is mechanically red, they are free game.  The question is, did the ranger had to kill it?  Not all rangers will necesseraly follow the altruistic ways.  Some are pure hunters and will hunt the animal. They would problably not waste anything though.

[Shrowd Umbra]

Shrowd takes from the more animal side of being a ranger. She runs with wolves, hunts with them, and fights as part of a pack. At first she admired their beauty but eventually went back to the standpoint of "deer are food" and made armor while she was at it. It's hard keeping a pair of grown direwolves fed.

This is still argueably evil on her part to have made the armors. On the other hand Shrowd will push her pack to near death to save Hlint. She's rescued a lost little girl from Vehl's crypts, spared a panther that was friendly when she didn't need the kill, and gives freely to other adventurers that can make better use of something than she.

Shrowd walks the fine line between good and evil. She absolutely will shoot a caged ogre in the Haven mine rather than let it loose to hurt people -then- shoot it. On the other hand, she listened when she first met Grovel the Goblin and came to know him for the good druid he and his other goblinoid friends were.

[ycleption]

My personal opinion is that this is more important for druids than rangers... (even hunter-druids will generally recognize that certain things are sacrosanct) but if your ranger has any knowledge of forest lore, she'd know that white stags are esteemed noble creatures, and that using them is considered to be an affront to nature - if she's friends with druids, that alone may dissuade her from wearing a suit of armor that screams "I don't respect nature" to those who recognize it.
Even if she personally views the white deer as prey to be hunted, the symbolism can't be ignored.
My 2 true.

[wisper]

I don't see where even a neutral good druid wouldn't be able to hunt a supposedly noble animal.  Attributing "nobility" to an animal is an anthropomorphism anyway.  Humans may see noble traits in a stag but why would druids or rangers who truly understand nature rate them above chickens, shrews and badgers?  The only reason I could see would be if the species is endangered due to being overhunted or civilization spoiling their habitat, or something else that would be throwing "the balance" out of whack.

Druids and rangers shouldn't be like knights of Toran who will protect the lives of every animal like they're helpless peasants...  After all animals kill each other all all day long.   To a protector of nature "evil" would be poaching and wastefulness, not hunting for sustenance.

[ycleption]

By that logic, one could say the Great Oak is just another tree, so who cares if some logger cuts it down, as long as the forest as a whole isn't harmed?
This is a magical world, and things like viewing a creature as some anthropomorphic attribute is not necessarily made up.

Its been a while since I right-clicked on one, but I think the description of a white stag indicates that it does have some sort of positive effect on Balance, so killing one is harming nature in a broader sense... (I could be making this up, it's been a while).

Mechanically, I don't even think pure rangers can wear the armor:
http://forums.layonara.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=105245 So this is really only an issue for multiclassed rangers. (what, you implying there are rangers who don't multiclass? ) I think the fact that whoever created the item went through the trouble of making the item that way says a lot...

[Shrowd Umbra]

The hide armor is mechanically prevented but has no description. The Leather version has nothing mechanical but has a description that includes permission for GMs to drop a hammer on ranger powers for wearing it if you're of good alignment.

That said, we have to look to Gygax's source for Druids, druids. Teh orriginal druids were Celtic priests and did a good deal of nature worship. There was also drinking the blood of human enemies and Beltane sex rituals (Which are expressly banned on Layonara for good reason!) involved with the old druids. They skinned and ate certain animals -because- they were holy. The modern druid of D&D has the modern twist of being a nature protector. Not very much like the old druids.

That being said, Shrowd has enough sense to always tell Milo that the animal was sickly before she made it into armor or boots. Not so much out of fear but out of not wanting to upset her friend. I asked around some of the druids and clerics of Layonara and the general consensus comes to this: The white stag is somehow special and killing it for any reason is evil. No one has yet given solid reason to this fact. It could be the reincarnated lover of Xeen or just a special animal that's some how off limits because it's white.

If this thing is holy to druids, can we put something up about it? I searched the forums and asked a World Leader and still this is all I have to post. That said, would shifting Shrowd to Chaotic Neutral fit her wearing the armor? I can put in for a CDQ for that if need be though honestly, I'd rather wear my armor and move on to something else in fictional life.

Edit: Is there an official story behind the white stag and where it comes from? I would like to hear/read it if possible as the bard in me thrives on details like that.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

Shrowd, honestly, just do what you want with the stag.  It's an animal.  animals are hunted.  They die.  I mean hell, whats worse?  Killing a few white dear or the constant slaughter of lions/panthers/malars/cougars/bears/boars for the sake of a few boots, belts, cloaks, and such?

Heck you wanna talk about evil?  If your not supposed to kill it, why does it try to kill you!  >.>

[lonnarin]

Grovel absolutely refuses to make these after reading the description.  His orc friend saved up some skins once, Grovel scolded him but made the item so that they would not die in vain, looked at the item, started screaming, threw it into a trash barrel and set the barrel on fire. He then dragged Rak aside and growled at him to never again bring him such cursed leathers.

That being said however, it would be nice if the peaceful noble herbivores would stop shrieking like hungry zombies and trying to eat the brains of party members walking by.  Because then you have a dead animal and two choices, let it go to waste against druidic oaths, or use every part of the animal, against druidic oaths.  This wasn't so much of a problem before herbivores started eating humanoid.  Now every time somebody want to pick berries, they have two loads of holy venison in their packs, regardless of their alignment.  This wasn't a problem prior to the mass empathy script, I think.  I'd much rather have herbivores chill than be able to walk around renders, however.

[ycleption]

I agree with you Shrowd that an official story/reason/explanation would be nice; but that's true for a lot of things in the game. Sometimes you just have to satisfied, and decide how your character would behave given the information you do have. I think you may be over-analyzing the alignment issue a bit - (again, my opinion only) the way your character views nature is probably more relevant to the issue than alignment.

 If it suits your character, wear it, and deal with the consequences if they come, rather than trying to rationalize it away OOCly. There are, or have been, druids who would kill you on sight (Khuren comes to mind) for wearing white stag. On the other hand, Drexia sells it openly on her advertisement, and I'm still waiting for someone to challenge her about it.

However, I strongly disagree with the notion that druids in human history, or in Gygax's vision have anything to do with deciding issues in Layonara... especially since we're trying to get away from DnD lore, the layo-specific lore (even if poorly justified) should be the most important thing...

Edit @Lonn: The using the whole animal/let it not go to waste thing is not a druid oath... a lot (maybe almost all) of druids take that philosophy, but there are those (like Pallena) who believe that nature is equipped to dispose of things naturally, which is why vultures and hyenas and worms and maggots exist...

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

Tyra finds Drexia's Ad

Drexia!  How dare you!  How much?

[lonnarin]

Edit @Lonn: The using the whole animal/let it not go to waste thing is not a druid oath... a lot (maybe almost all) of druids take that philosophy, but there are those (like Pallena) who believe that nature is equipped to dispose of things naturally, which is why vultures and hyenas and worms and maggots exist...

Not to mention ravenous goblins who eat practically everything/everyone!

I think Daniella and Tyra have called Grovel most of these things before... Maggot certainly, Vulture, maybe, Hyena not yet, Worm... you better believe it!

That being said, that makes rotting meat all the more his responsibility.  That and because to the gobbo tongue, stinky and maggoty are two of the tastiest flavors out there!

[Shrowd Umbra]

I agree with you Shrowd that an official story/reason/explanation would be nice; but that's true for a lot of things in the game. Sometimes you just have to satisfied, and decide how your character would behave given the information you do have. I think you may be over-analyzing the alignment issue a bit - (again, my opinion only) the way your character views nature is probably more relevant to the issue than alignment.

Good point. Shrowd's not a cuddly ranger that hugs trees. She runs with wolves and goblins for fun. I'll leave it at that and get back to playing now. Thanks everyone!