Yes another character app suggestion

[Guardian 452]

I would like to see the applying for new toons get a bit more courtesy given  to each app if possible. (I beleive I have seen exactly what I describe here on some apps now)

I shall use my own character app as an example.

1. Origional Character App made May 7th

2. No news the character has even been reviewed or anthing untill a Reply with requests to make character approveable made May 9th

3. Reply with attempt at doing said requests - May 9th

4. Now back to dead air waiting for ?  I assume it is once again being discussed... but we all know what happens when we assume to much


Can we please get a simple reply of....
We acknowledge this application and it has been forwarded to wherever it goes to get talked about amongst the approval staff. We will reply soon when we have come to an answer if this character is ready for play or needs more work. Thank you.

At least give us the courtesy of knowing the application is being discussed in some way shape or form. Rather than just dead air for X number of days. I do not beleive that this is too much of a request. If the character app has to be linked and sent off to some other area to be discussed etc... or however the process goes now. Can't the staff take another minute and post some simple Cut and Paste response similar to the above example?

Personally I dont have a problem with the length of time to get a character approved. I know every person here works on a volunteer basis and has a Real Life. I know we can't expect to go from origional application to playing in game any shorter than we do now (or not much shorter anyway). I would just like an acknowledgement given to us the players that you have indeed seen the app and what is happening to it now... sort of like a very VERY simple tracking system like on a package. Perhaps even a super quick tip added like you definatly need to flesh out "X" more. We suggest you do so while we discuss the other aspects of this character app. This would eliminate days of dead air on the part of the applicant, and hopefully speed up the entire process.

I go appreciate All the work, All the people that do All character approvals put into their jobs... this is simply a suggestion to help the process go more smoothly.

Thank you very much for your time.

G-452

[Gulnyr]

I disagree because the effort is voluntary and time is limited.  If we were paying to play and there were a full-time staff reading submissions, "we see this" posts would be fine (and probably automatically handled by some bot, anyway).  Since we don't and there isn't, every minute spent posting what is essentially obvious (as you indicated yourself) is a minute not spent actually approving characters.  

When the CAs have time to approve characters, they approve characters.  It's counterproductive to have them go through and acknowledge receipt and then go back and get busy actually reading, commenting, and approving.

[Hellblazer]

I'm sorry to say that I completely disagree with you Gulnyr. Either it's voluntary or not, it's still simple curtsy. When I was working for the drop in center of chateaugay and someone left me something to read or do. I wasn't paid to do what I was doing, I had volunteered as a social intervenor with kids. Yet it was considered professional and courteous to let the person know you were working on the file that you were given.

Being paid has nothing to do with it. The persons that accept to do the characters approving accept to deal directly with the players on a personal level that can bring stress to both parties. They decide to be the first line of decision making for that said character. It's by them that the character passes or fails. In that regard it's their responsibilities to be in touch with the player to make sure everything is in order. Note the responsibility word I wrote here. Why because they chose to do it, wither they are getting paid or not has no consequences.

And what does it take to just copy paste a pre-formated answer for those that do not want to write a personal message, stating they have read the application and it's under discussion? less than 5 seconds. And that 5 seconds wont take anything away from a submission that is being discussed, as a decision has probably not been reached for them to have the time to write this. Having gone through the motion when I applied to become one, I can tell you that it wouldn't take away anything from the process, and from the time to approve others subs.
 
So once again it's a question  of courteousness.

[ycleption]

Obviously there is a difference of opinion here or it wouldn't be an issue. To some people, saying "hi, we see this" feels like the impersonal corporate "your call is important to us" kind of treatment that everyone hates. To others such as you, saying nothing is discourteous. We DO try to let people know if there will a particular delay, such as approvals for evil, of if lore consistency has to be checked with someone.

Bottom line, we can't please everyone. As far as time though, the bigger issue is that if we reply, it makes it impossible to see at a glance on the forum page who is ready to be reviewed and what order submissions should be reviewed.

[Hellblazer]

the bigger issue is that if we reply, it makes it impossible to see at a glance on the forum page who is ready to be reviewed and what order submissions should be reviewed.

If all threads were replied to, then all thread would be left in the same order that they were posted, that is if they were replied in the same order that they were posted in. Also there is the ca private forum where you can post which subs are ready to be reviewed or in need of discussion.

Now that I agree it's one more level of bureaucracy. But if it takes some of the stress away from the players that are anxious to see their char in game, and I'm sure you know there are a lot of players that keeps tracks day to day of what is happening. isn't that just a small thing to do?

[Gulnyr]

Courtesy is what has nothing to do with it.  Do you think the CAs are being discourteous or rude or any other negative thing?

There are two possibilities: CAs are checking submissions -or- CAs are not checking submissions.

If CAs are not checking submissions, then they aren't looking to see if there are new submissions, so there is no one to make any sort of post.

If CAs are checking submissions, then they are already reading, making comments, and approving new submissions.  No "courtesy post" necessary because there will be a post of substance soon enough.

An empty auto-response (like "Thanks for submitting!  We'll get back to you soon."), whether posted by a CA or automated by a bot, adds nothing to the process.  Instead, it could make the wait more frustrating by making those waiting think something of substance has been posted when it's really just junk mail.  

The CAs do enough already.  Requirements for empty posts don't need to be tossed in, too.  If players are stressing over characters being approved, they need to go outside for a while.  It isn't that important.

[Hellblazer]

I don't know for you, but when I create something, I like to have feedbacks. Wither it's a piece of music for someone, or it's a short story or anything else. The waiting time feeling wither it's only for a game or paying work stays the same. It's a bummer, and if we go back through the subs, you can see how many bumps there had been after two or more days of waiting without an answer from the ca teams. Since it's kept in closed doors, most do not know what is going on, if it's being discussed or if the ca's are just not on the forum at all due to RL, which has happened. That's why when you are working with the public, as the ca's are doing, it's important to let people know that you are working on it. I'm not saying they are not. I'm saying that it can be perceived as "nothing is being done, your sub has fallen through a crack (which has also happened but rarely thank God), your submission being discussed but you don't know if it is or not." There can be many permutation to what people are thinking. And perception is a powerful tool for or against any process when it comes in regards of working with the public. That is why most companies choose to leave messages embedded with the waiting music. Cause hearing (reading) a human voice has a lot more calming effect than being left on hold for hours on end with just music. It's the same principles that applies even here.

There are more reasons than the two you wrote, but it's not worth bickering thing just to debate things. Wither or not the ca's will start posting a personal note or a pre-formated note, is not in our say. We can raise our concern and wait for the team to make a decision. So on that, I'll let its course go through and see with time what the decision will be.

[Dorganath]

The volunteer nature of the CA position (or any team position for that matter) is not like volunteering down at the homeless shelter, or the library or what have you.  In those cases, it is like a job, where you show up, put in your X hours of time, and then you leave when you're done.  While you're there, you're working for...whomever.

The nature of the Character Approver job, and most other team positions for that matter (save for actually running a quest) is more like "Oh, I have ten minutes, I'll review an application".  It's squeezed in between the tasks of daily life, or at least as much as I've seen.  These tasks include but are certainly not limited to parenting, finals, work, and so forth.

The Character Approvers are now on a rotating schedule to help stave off burn-out, and let me tell you...it got very close for a couple of people and took hold in one.  Adding one more thing to do....no matter how long it takes...is an additional burden they really don't need, especially when the rewards of the position seem to diminish with each new criticism.

It should be assumed that the CAs are reviewing, even talking about, applications in the pipeline, even if they don't say as much.

It has been my observance that the CA team is in fact very good about feedback when feedback is needed or warranted. Most of the cases don't need it.  Are there exceptions and lapses? Yes, of course, but they do the best they can given their circumstances.

One last comment, directed at no one in particular:

Consider how much time you have spent in-game, playing and enjoying your character(s) in the past week.  Now consider that the average CA team member would be lucky to have gotten such enjoyment for themselves over the past month.  So as a "courtesy" we want to ask them to do more work, make their process less streamlined and intuitive, further reducing the rewards of the job that is already among the most important yet heavily criticized ones we have.  When commenting how "quick" or "easy" it would be, consider how long that takes when multiplied by 10...15...25 applications, especially when those reviews are interrupted by one's "real" job, one's children, one's school work and other obligations.

Having said all this, I'm not saying they're perfect (and neither are they), nor am I saying that feedback is not important (it is!).  However, there's a balance to strike, and like other aspects of the CA process, it takes cooperation of both submitter and approver, rather than the vilification of one party or the other.

Remember that the CA team works from the oldest to the newest submissions, and once an application has been commented upon, it moves up the stack.  Assuming an active queue, the CAs who are active at the moment will go back through them in order and as commented, so sometimes it takes a bit of time to get back to a particular application.  Delay in this, unless it goes beyond 2-3 days, should be expected, especially if it's a complex application or, in Guardian 452's case, a restricted alignment or the like.  Ideally, they shoot for 24-48 hour turn-arounds at most, but time zones, conflicting schedules and that pesky real-life thing.

So yes, perhaps it would be a courtesy, but it is also a courtesy toward the CA team to be understanding of their situation and the tasks and responsibilities they have taken.

It's a two-way street.

[Dorganath]

That is why most companies choose to leave messages embedded with the waiting music. Cause hearing (reading) a human voice has a lot more calming effect than being left on hold for hours on end with just music. It's the same principles that applies even here.

After being "on hold" for longer than you expect/want/think is reasonable, the repeated claim of how "important" you are to them starts to fall flat.  A canned message about how the CAs are doing what they're doing anyway will have the same effect.  It doesn't hasten the process, and after seeing it a few times, it's just expected and it becomes part of the background noise.

"Oh good, they posted the automatic feedback message...but meh"

Trust me...hear something enough, you stop hearing it, and that's from someone who's spent way too much time on hold listening to that "soothing" human voice every 30 seconds.

[Guardian 452]

Dorg, I think in your recent reply I saw a potential answer to future issues by others on when they should and shouldnt be concerend about the amount of time passed with no responses.

Remember that the CA team works from the oldest to the newest submissions, and once an application has been commented upon, it moves up the stack.  Assuming an active queue, the CAs who are active at the moment will go back through them in order and as commented, so sometimes it takes a bit of time to get back to a particular application.  Delay in this, unless it goes beyond 2-3 days, should be expected, especially if it's a complex application or, in Guardian 452's case, a restricted alignment or the like.  Ideally, they shoot for 24-48 hour turn-arounds at most, but time zones, conflicting schedules and that pesky real-life thing.

Id like to request that this be re-worded in whatever way the staff feels gets the message across the best. hen a post with that message be made to the character submission page and made STICKY.

Perhaps this will help eliminate some peoples concerns at least as long as they fall within such time windows still.

Thank you for considering this.

G-452

.

[Rowana]

I want to add something. I find form letters, auto-macros, copied/pasted text soulless and disrespectful. There are some cases where it makes absolute sense and saves more time then can be reasonably denied. However, I'm afraid if you asked me to conform to such a thing more then we already have to, the weight of an already heavy job would would just come crushing down that much more.

I want to talk to people, not a bot and not a macro. Trust me if we had to go through daily and flag an application as 'acknowledged' even when there was no response from the player, it would be a macro or a bot. I already type enough as it is, I don't need to develop a health condition for an empty note. I also don't need my fellow CAs developing a health condition and having to quit over an empty note. We are here, working on these applications in the spare moments of our days. Some of the CA team members don't actually have any 'spare moments' and make time for things to get done anyway. We are going as quickly as our psyches can handle and it really should be assumed and accepted that we are going to handle those apps as we can.

I'm a little... offended (?) at the suggestion that we have simply dropped applications and forgotten about them completely I might add. Perhaps we've miscommunicated as a team but we've never just pushed aside an application and left it to twist in the wind. I don't think having a bot would solve any miscommunications anyway. Automagical responses would be handled without thought, either by hand or by a bot-ish thing, monotonously especially when we are queued up to 25 applications pending approval.

With regards to the suggestion of a 'window of time' being stickied? We tried that. If we stepped outside of that window we were publicly sacrificed for not obeying our own 'commands' on a regular basis, despite the unchangeable situations such as only one CA active at the time and having 10 or 15 applications in queue. We used to have a post that said we'd try to get to people within 48 hours or something to that effect in with other character guides and there were quite a few people who would verbally attack us if we did not meet that timeline. As the CA team regularly experiences various forms of attacks we simply removed it because it was too inflexible for the various situations our volunteers found themselves in.

~row

[cbnicholson]

I'm gonna put my two cents in.  Looking at the recent approvals, I heartily approve of the job the CA's are doing.  Yes, it took a week of back and forth to get a recent character submission of mine ig, but that's reasonable when you consider I have other characters I can play.  What I found most impressive was a new player's first character submission had a turnaround time of approx 24 hours. And that was with comments and corrections made.  Now that's timely work! I truly hope the focus stays on new player character submissions in terms of priority- imo - it's the smart move.

[Alatriel]

Yeah, I've been told I probably should keep my nose out, but I'm not very good at that.  I don't think it's fair to constantly complain about the "slack" job that the CA's are doing, but never comment on when they do a good job.  Why?  Because when we see them do a good job, instead of saying "Hey, wow!  That's fantastic!" we just sniff and say, "sounds right, you -should- get me in game, hmph!"  or we're just so excited to start our new character that we forget to actually appreciate the one who approved it.

Maybe instead of complaining on how long it takes to get YOUR character in game and then searching to see who else took a few days to get approved (Yurax was approved in under a day, so obviously, they're not just sitting around and not looking)  Maybe instead you should look at your submission and say to yourself, "Is this what they're looking for?  Is this a submission that is going to make them tell me to add more, change more, etc?"  When you create a character, do a web search, make sure you aren't accidentally plagiarising somoene.  Don't make things so overly complicated that it takes them three weeks just to read it, or have to flag Ed (who has his own huge laundry list of Layo chores already).  On the flipside, make sure that whatever it is that you want for your character is adequately described and supported.  Instead of writing up a quick character, edit it a few times.  Go through the character approval on your own a couple times before you actually hit the submit button.  

In our household, if one of us writes a character, we have the other one look it over and tell us what we think the CA team will ask us to change, add to, edit, etc.  Why would we know these things?  Because we've watched other submissions.  Sure, we don't always catch everything, but can you imagine if we didn't do that in the first place?  Maybe you don't have someone in your house that can help you.  Hopefully you have friends here in this game that maybe you could PM your submission to and ask them for help?

You can say "Oh, well, New Players wouldn't know that," but that would be a partially false statement.  Yes, they may not necessarily know in the way we do, but our Submissions are not private.  They are open, and any new player could look at tons of different already submitted and approved characters and see what the CA team is looking for.

So maybe instead of constantly telling the CA team to change to make things friendlier for you, maybe you instead should make your submissions friendlier to them.  And a 2 day turn around on a submission is fantastic, btw.  Don't pick at people that are working hard for you that get nothing but derision in return.  They might decide it's no longer worth it.

[lonnarin]

I would like all discussions to be off the restricted GM Forum and onto a private character journal for the character, accessible by the player submitting.

1. It gets the player involved instead of "on hold".  At least if they're asking questions or given reasons, they can be part of the process.

2. The player can address concerns as they arrive, instead of waiting for weeks on end and making a laundry list of changes later.

Both factors will simplify and speed up the process.

[Dorganath]

I would like all discussions to be off the restricted GM Forum and onto a private character journal for the character, accessible by the player submitting.

1. It gets the player involved instead of "on hold".  At least if they're asking questions or given reasons, they can be part of the process.

2. The player can address concerns as they arrive, instead of waiting for weeks on end and making a laundry list of changes later.

Both factors will simplify and speed up the process.

Well first, much of the discussion within the CA team happens on IRC, as it is often more efficient and timely, with typically the more difficult situations, or situations needing GM input, happen on the forums.  This is a small subset of all applications. Not every application is discussed at any meaningful length. Some aren't discussed at all.

Second moving the process to a semi-private forum takes away the level of transparency that the process has now, that being every concern, request and such for an application is seen publicly, which supports both player and CA alike and lets the community see what is being said. Short of duplicating all relevant information between the original submission, the veil of privacy and secrecy will only cause problems for both applicant and approver alike.

It won't speed up anything, because either the player/applicant has to start a private journal himself/herself (like the private CDTs) or a forum admin has to set up a specific resource just for a process that shouldn't take more than a few days, except in the most extreme cases. It also decentralizes any discussions that do take place, making it more  difficult for the CA team to go back and look at past precedents. That's yet more work for an already highly-worked team, and more complexity on top of that.  

It is highly atypical that anyone waits "weeks on end" for a response or to receive a list of requests from the CA team, and it is rare among even the most complex cases, having happened less than a handful of times in memory (and once was a genuine mistake, iirc).  Certainly, the process can potentially take weeks, but there is generally more frequent feedback and discourse during that time, and the CA team often waits on the player's response as much as the player waits on the CA team.

[Rowana]

I would like all discussions to be off the restricted GM Forum and onto a private character journal for the character, accessible by the player submitting.

1. It gets the player involved instead of "on hold".  At least if they're asking questions or given reasons, they can be part of the process.

2. The player can address concerns as they arrive, instead of waiting for weeks on end and making a laundry list of changes later.

Both factors will simplify and speed up the process.

I have to agree with Dorganath wholeheartedly. There are two other aspects that would detract from the process and further slow things down.

First it would make training new CA's a bear and likely more overwhelming then it is now. We'd need a special thread just to track issues and all their linking threads/logs etc, another time sink that would be necessary. Having the PCDT thread AND a thread in the CA forums AND tracking of our  conversations in IRC is just that much more work we don't need at  present. New CAs would have to spend their first month just reading rather then having it within easy reach in the CA forum and jumping in their first week like both Ycleption and Gilshem have done.

Second of all, it is a much touted concept that we don't require our CA's to be experts in lore, nor our GMs. Allowing us to discuss applications in a common forum away from the player allows US to get our facts straight before taking it to the player and confusing them. It saves the Player from being yanked around by "you need to address this," then another coming in and saying, "Oh no this is correct, actually because of this other precedent here. So what we really need is x,y and z..." In a process that can already be taxing to a player.

We have in the past PMed players directly with private concerns and will  continue to do so for things that really don't need to be put into the  forums (these things include issues that directly relate to the family  friendly nature of the server or issues that involve minor applicants  who we'd like to protect if possible). So there is a little (EXTREMELY  rare, perhaps twice a calendar year vs the hundreds of applications that  go through the process) that general players do not see but other then  this we would rather keep all decisions and needs in the public eye.

It's not a situation where most applications get a lot of dialog in any form, as Dorganath said. The extra effort of a player getting a thread set up for their discussion, only for it to be ignored and sitting empty for the hours where CAs are unavailable seems like another build up to a let down. We would continue to post most of the needs from an application in an open setting so that transparency is maintained and so that future applicants, new or old, have a good source to draw on for their own attempts.

~row

[Guardian 452]

As the thread starter I would like to request this thread now be locked.

I do not wish take up anymore of the CA's time with this issue when they have RL responsibilities & all the current submissions already bogging them down.

Having anymore discussion here seems like a waste of everyones time.

Thanks

G-452

[Hellblazer]

Just as a clarification. I'm pretty sure Lonnarin meant that the subs would be posted in the same thread as they are now, but the discussion if any could be held in a private thread only accessible by the ca's gm's and the one that submitted.

[Dorganath]

Just as a clarification. I'm pretty sure Lonnarin meant that the subs would be posted in the same thread as they are now, but the discussion if any could be held in a private thread only accessible by the ca's gm's and the one that submitted.

Yep, I understood that when I replied, but it would still add a layer of complexity and delay rather than making things simpler and faster, as was suggested, and it would remove some of the transparency of the process, unless there was a duplication of information between the two channels of discussion.

Anyway someone has locked the thread, per request, so I'll not go any further than I've already stated in fairness.