Favoured Craft?

[Dorganath]

Just to clarify...

I never said crafting cannot have a valid impact on RP.  I said that crafting levels should not be critical to the RP.  My own character has been an alchemist pretty much since I made him, and if someone asks, "what do you do?" he responds by saying he's an alchemist, even though by now he's gained quite a few levels in the craft.

The RP of crafting levels is not about the specific level so much as the relative skill and/or advancement in that particular craft....just like character levels.  It always bothers me when characters state they are a "fighter of 12 seasons" or a "mage of the 9th circle" or whatever.

After some further thought on the matter (and I believe this has come up before), it's interesting that no one in this thread has suggested a feat that can be taken sometime after character creation which would boost one's ability (i.e. +1 to rolls or +5% chance of success) in a particular craft).  I'm not sure if this is an oversight or more of a desire to not impact a character's build by devoting feats to crafting.  Though if you think about it, those who are advocating the idea of a master crafter shouldn't mind so much sacrificing a few combat feats to make themselves better crafters.  

This last point is one that stands a far greater chance of being implemented than any of the scenarios listed above because...well...it's relatively easy and it does require the player to actually do some thinking about their character's progression and make some sacrifices in their combat/magic/rogue abilities for the sake of their crafts.

[MJZ]

After some further thought on the matter (and I believe this has come up before), it's interesting that no one in this thread has suggested a feat that can be taken sometime after character creation which would boost one's ability (i.e. +1 to rolls or +5% chance of success) in a particular craft).

But I did suggest something like that, twice! In my initial post and in the one before this - I just phrased it a different way, talking about xp percentage.

CNR is an add-on, and a big one at that. There is no way we can implement any sort of "pick your favored craft" during character creation because we simply do not have that kind of control of the game engine nor is there any support for it.

Sure, I understand that. Darkstorme's first post was also very helpful, giving me a lot of information about the technical aspects of the issue, which is really what I was interested in.

As I've mentioned, I completely understand if due to the mechanics it's more trouble than it's worth. I also understand if there is consensus that keeping characters as "from scratch" (which I keep saying) as possible is necessary.

But I still do have a few points to address in retrospect, because I feel that several things said have been more argumentative than objective and this distresses me. I did hesitate to suggest this because I had a premonition about the reaction and now I am made to regret having done it.

   

                      ...Level 3 in crafting would be the new Level 1....and then we've spent a lot of time to accomplish basically nothing.

Really, that wouldn't be the case at all. The idea was a character could have this benefit in ONE single craft, not all of them. Hence 'favoured.' Hence one single craft would be a little boosted, making it a bit easier to begin with than all of the others. The same would apply for the proposed success percentage increase. If someone were suggesting ALL crafts be boosted then of course it wouldn't make a difference, but no one is suggesting that.

I also feel my explication about the rather extensive analogies that were being drawn to a the idea of a favoured craft (why not then add levels in fighter, attack bonus, etc) was ignored. To begin with, I don't see why it was necessary for several people to describe various extensive inane examples using my "fourteen years with an inventor" as a template. You have to see how this is offensive in nature. All it did was to lump my suggestion into the group of stupid ideas, and rather unfairly so.

When I showed what I meant, that there are very obvious implements for being a guard for 14 years such as feats and stat points on creation but none for crafting, that was when I began to hear more objective information. I don't understand why we couldn't have just spoken about the various technical aspects to begin with, instead of making long posts that took what had been said (not just by myself, by others as well when speaking of RP elements and such) and comparing them to rather ridiculous things extensively. It had little to nothing to do with the suggestion.

Thank you for all of the concrete criticism and commentary. But I am upset about the lines and lines that seemed aimed at lumping my idea into unrelated and obviously disagreeable ideas. It was truly unnecessary, and it really didn't accomplish anything.

Thanks again for taking the time to detail the objective comments.

[Witch Hunter]

"When I showed what I meant, that there are very obvious implements for being a guard for 14 years such as feats and stat points on creation but none for crafting, "
 
Yes but what you're suggesting means one would get both level 3 in a certain craft AND a feat thats good for his chosen class
it could be simply made into a rule that no one can be good in a certain craft in their bio...
 
A blacksmith would not be more than an apprenatice (and an appreantice blacksmith isn't all that glorious)
A tailor wouldn't do more than cloth and simple leathers (which is basiclly level 1 tailoring)  and so forth so forth.
 
It would give him an IC reason to pick up a craft though - which beats the "okay I want to do blacksmithing now because I need money *suddenly starts leveling armor crafting*"

[Kindo]

I understand that the Internet sometimes is horrible when it comes to relaying feelings and the tone of someone's voice. However, I am still feeling upset about the kind of responses I am reading here.

Acacea, Dorganath, and Gulnyr... what are you doing? From your very first replies in this thread, MJZ has been met by nothing but extreme hostility, where you resort to ridiculous so-called "counter-arguments" about being a noble or having a higher starting character level. This suggestion was completely valid, opening the topic up for discussion, nothing more. If there are technical complications to this that you would like to avoid, then by all means, tell us about those complications, like darkstorme did! Instead, all you could do was to attack her with the kind of contempt and scorn one would only expect from someone's enemy, not from people with a standing like yourselves.

This is making me feel as though suggesting anything is a really bad idea, seeing how, if it is something the team does not approve of, you will be met with severe animosity like this, where "common players" are exposed to ganged-up ridicule and other verbal attacks. The way you have treated this suggestion leaves me feeling very disappointed.

[MJZ]

Yes but what you're suggesting means one would get both level 3 in a certain craft AND a feat thats good for his chosen class "

Nope, I never suggested that. I suggested the idea of a favoured craft, how to implement it was just an example. Dorganath's idea of success percentage increase is a great one. I don't really see what you mean here though Witch. [Echo] The idea is crafting has no application upon character creation, I thought it was an interesting idea that it could.


Edit: Woah. I'm sorry it upset you so much Kindo. This tends to happen to me.

...*reaches for consolatory Kanar*

[Dorganath]

If there are technical complications to this that you would like to avoid, then by all means, tell us about those complications, like darkstorme did! Instead, all you could do was to attack her with the kind of contempt and scorn one would only expect from someone's enemy, not from people with a standing like yourselves.

OK, I'm not sure where the perception of hostility came in, but I assure you that absolutely none is intended, nor even thought, while writing any of my responses in this thread.  Disagreement or resistance is not the same as an attack.  I have no "contempt" or "scorn" or any other negative emotion for the original poster or you or anyone else you think I was hostile toward.  

I cannot speak for Acacea or Gulnyr or anyone else who has responded in this thread.  For my own position, you all need to understand that in deciding what kinds of things go into the game and how they get implemented, the GMs and developers look at the overall big picture.

This is not a criticism of anyone, but a large majority of suggestions are made because someone gets an idea, many of which are wonderful ideas, and in proposing that idea the entire concept is rather narrow, and surely most people here don't really know anything about the foundations of our systems, what kinds of limits Bioware enforces, etc.  

Beyond that, there's a certain administrative aspect to many of these things.  Yes, such things are generally OOC, but they're important factors all the same.  And finally, there are issues of balance which go into pretty much everything, and such issues become even more critical when touching on a system as complex and integrated with this world as CNR.

And so, all of my responses here have not be hostility toward the idea (which I believe I acknowledged made a certain degree of sense in at least one of my responses) or the person suggesting it, but rather to go into detail about how the idea, as given, is not necessarily a good fit and then to explain why it is not a good fit so that everyone would understand. No offense or anything else was ever intended.

I thought the point of bringing this up was for discussion and to hopefully come up with a solution that might be agreeable and workable, one that made sense in terms of benefit vs. manpower...and more importantly, one that makes sense in all aspects where it matters in this world.  

Now, let me clarify and explain a few things which I believe have been misinterpreted:

1) I really don't understand why such offense was taken when others extended the metaphor to other aspects of the game.  The initial suggestion was for some system that would add crafting preference to character creation in much the same way as a language ear.  The only problem with treating crafting levels and/or crafting XP and/or crafting ability/bonuses like language ears is that language ears don't ultimately affect game play, character advancement, etc.  Crafting is a very important part of the game.  At the risk of sounding like I am minimizing their importance, language ears add depth to RP, but they don't really advance a character in a mechanical sense.

And so, since giving bonus crafting levels or a bonus to crafting for free at character creation and based on the character biography alone does, in fact, add an advantage to that character, it is perfectly fair to draw the "14 years with a master swordsman" parallel.  Again, my comment was not to trivialize your example but to further extend it and illustrate a potential pitfall in allowing mechanical bonuses based on one's character bio.

Mentioning noble backgrounds, free items as "heirlooms" and whatever else I may have said was to further illustrate how we have to have limits as to what is given out for "free" at character creation.

2) I don't want to get into an argument. I think there are already some issues with properly perceiving what was written, and I do try to avoid such things whenever possible, but a text-only medium combined with possible problems in translation sometimes do not allow what is meant to be properly expressed.  

However, what I meant here:

After some further thought on the matter (and I believe this has come up before), it's interesting that no one in this thread has suggested a feat that can be taken sometime after character creation which would boost one's ability (i.e. +1 to rolls or +5% chance of success) in a particular craft). I'm not sure if this is an oversight or more of a desire to not impact a character's build by devoting feats to crafting. Though if you think about it, those who are advocating the idea of a master crafter shouldn't mind so much sacrificing a few combat feats to make themselves better crafters.

...was that the feat be one that is taken at some point after character creation, not in how it works. While it is true that the original post suggested a feat that would give a bonus (in the form of an accelerated XP progression), it was explicitly stated that it would happen at character creation. What I stated in the quoted text is that the feat would not be "free" and available at character creation but would rather take the place of another feat that is taken at one of the normal intervals (i.e. every 3 levels).  I think if one were to re-read what I wrote up there, it should be apparent that is what I meant.  If it is confusing, then I apologize, but the point was not the mechanics of the bonus (faster XP, better rolls, better chance of success) but rather the player needing to make a decision between crafting-related feats and combat/metamagic/defensive feats.  

I go on to say that this is a far more likely scenario because a) it's much easier to implement and b) it makes the player sacrifice a bit of their character's "power" in order to favor crafting...which, if someone were to devote themselves primarily to a particular craft, would make all the sense in the world.  Someone who focuses on crafting would not be as good as a fighter/cleric/wizard/rogue because there is only so much time to devote to one's pursuits.

This was proposed as an alternative solution and to possibly get the discussion moving onto something that would fit the world better in my opinion.

Now, I don't have much else to say on this situation, except that it's unfortunate that the assumption was made that I am somehow being hostile or confrontational.  I believe in explaining things with a lot of detail and examples in such cases so that players can understand where we (i.e. the GM and development teams) come from and the things we look at when evaluating these suggestions so that the ideas can be discussed in and grow in the proper context and perhaps produce something that will in the end be something which can be put into Layonara in a meaningful way.

[Dorganath]

This is making me feel as though suggesting anything is a really bad idea, seeing how, if it is something the team does not approve of, you will be met with severe animosity like this, where "common players" are exposed to ganged-up ridicule and other verbal attacks. The way you have treated this suggestion leaves me feeling very disappointed.

I want to address this specifically...

I will state again, I have no animosity toward this idea. None. Nor did I attack anyone, nor did I "gang up" on anyone.  My opinions are my own. Furthemore, I don't look at anyone as "common players" in terms of things like this. Ideas are ideas.

And yes, I realize that my position on the teams gives my words greater weight, which is why I put a lot of consideration into what I write to hopefully a) educate and inform as to why something may or may not be a good fit, and b) avoid future misunderstandings.

Having said all that, just because I may not agree with something does not mean it will not be implemented, nor does it mean that I somehow disapprove of the person making the suggestion.  However, I have a deep interest in making sure that whatever does get implemented is done in the right way, and that extends across the technical as well as administrative and mechanical aspects of the game. In other words: it has to make sense in many ways. I also feel that if I'm going to join the discussion and say something probably isn't a good idea, it's important for me to say why, and to do so in a way that can be understood and perhaps built upon to further refine the idea.

Some people may take offense at this, but disagreeing on some points and working toward a mutually agreeable outcome is what discussions like this are all about.  In my experience, the original idea is rarely the final idea, and the more information about the factors involved that everyone has, the better.

[Gulnyr]

From your very first replies in this thread, MJZ has been met by nothing but extreme hostility, where you resort to ridiculous so-called "counter-arguments" about being a noble or having a higher starting character level.  ...  Instead, all you could do was to attack her with the kind of contempt and scorn one would only expect from someone's enemy, not from people with a standing like yourselves.

Neither Acacea, Dorganath, nor I attacked anyone, and none of us were hostile.  I admit I can be pretty blunt, but that's just because  like getting to the point instead of beating around the bush.  I'm not "posting angry."  Again, none of us attacked anyone.  We did post views that were counter to the original proposal, but that is an entirely different thing than attacking someone.  

Any idea or suggestion should be open for discussion, and it is extremely unlikely that any idea is perfect when first suggested.  Ideas aren't truly tested until they are pushed to their limits.  Even though those of us who posted in this thread might not try to gain any sort of advantage with such a system as suggested, someone else certainly would, and it's important to consider that sort of thing when examining an idea.  While the counter-argument of starting everyone at level 3 is extreme and highly rhetorical, other counter-points were not.  

We all understand that stat points, skill points, feat selection, and class choice are built into the system and crafting specialty isn't.  The original suggestion, which I understand we have moved away from, was to have those characters with a background in a craft begin with a boost in that craft.  Or, in semi-mathematics, Previously Trained Crafter > Brand New Unskilled Crafter.  That's makes sense, and is a nice idea.  The point you are missing, though, is that Previously Trained Fighter > Brand New Untrained Fighter, yet there is nothing in the rules of character creation to allow a Fighter with background experience to have any kind of leg-up on those Fighters who have never before held a weapon.  There are no feat or skill or stat restrictions of any kind on either background.  The analogy between the Fighters and the crafters are not unfair.

I know that people feel attached to their ideas, and that, somehow, questioning an idea is felt to be questioning the person in some way, but that is not what is happening.  I happen to think it's extremely cool that people post suggestions, and that MJZ in particular posted this one.

[LynnJuniper]

Okay, I've been avoiding this for a while, but Gulnyr's post did make me see something I want added. Its already been said before but I do want to back it up.

"...is that Previously Trained Fighter > Brand New Untrained Fighter"

But aren't there 1st level creation feats that add a bit to the character to portray this?

Artist
Blooded
Bullheaded
Courteous Magocracy
Luck of Heroes
Silver Palm
Snake Blood
Strong Soul

These are all feats that portray something that could have been prior learning. NWN2 also has a way of doing this with character backgrounds that add specific things to the character while taking other things away.

This brings me to the point posted here before: A feat, that can be taken at first level (or maybe any level, not to discriminate)

Favored Craft (_____): Which either, as said, gives +1 or so, or +5% to all rolls in that craft.

I do think though that the craft should only be allowed to be taken in one craft. Though I guess if people want to make a purely crafting character they can take as many as they want. Though another fine point, I don't think you should be able to take it with the Fighter specific feat levels. Alright, Im done now.

[Gulnyr]

But aren't there 1st level creation feats that add a bit to the character to portray this? ... These are all feats that portray something that could have been prior learning.

That's true, and it's a good point.  I would counter, though, by saying that every feat taken at first level defaults to being prior learning.  As such, a Fighter with a background as a 20-year veteran guard and a Fighter with a background as a boy suddenly thrust into the world both have the potential to be identical stat-wise, skill-wise, and feat-wise.  The background suggests the former should be "better," but the mechanics of the rules make them more or less the same.

[Hellblazer]

After some further thought on the matter (and I believe this has come up before), it's interesting that no one in this thread has suggested a feat that can be taken sometime after character creation which would boost one's ability (i.e. +1 to rolls or +5% chance of success) in a particular craft).  I'm not sure if this is an oversight or more of a desire to not impact a character's build by devoting feats to crafting.  Though if you think about it, those who are advocating the idea of a master crafter shouldn't mind so much sacrificing a few combat feats to make themselves better crafters.  

If a feet like that had existed, I would probably have taken it or at least realy concidered it a viable option.

[Witch Hunter]

That's true, and it's a good point. I would counter, though, by saying that every feat taken at first level defaults to being prior learning. As such, a Fighter with a background as a 20-year veteran guard and a Fighter with a background as a boy suddenly thrust into the world both have the potential to be identical stat-wise, skill-wise, and feat-wise. The background suggests the former should be "better," but the mechanics of the rules make them more or less the same.

 
Then it all comes down to how they are roleplayed.
Should it be done properly - the veteran guard would be more confident and so forth so forth.

[darkstorme]

But aren't there 1st level creation feats that add a bit to the character to portray this?

Artist
Blooded
Bullheaded
Courteous Magocracy
Luck of Heroes
Silver Palm
Snake Blood
Strong Soul

As has been argued, I'd point out that ANY feat taken at first level could be treated as "prior knowledge".   Why does the cleric know how to use martial weapons?  Because he trained in them during his initiation into the church.  Why does that rogue, there, know how to use heavy armour?  Perhaps he grew up with an armoursmith father, who taught him how to wear the stuff.  I would also argue that the abilities granted by the crafting system are not your run-of-the-mill abilities; anyone can pick up a needle and thread and fix a tear, or even put together simple clothes, but not make a fancy ball gown, or even a cloak worthy of an adventurer.  Adventurers demand (and wear/use) high-quality items.  That being said, I was unfamiliar with how simple it would be to interface a feat with the CNR system, so with that in mind, I'm totally in favour of:

Favored Craft (_____): Which either, as said, gives +1 or so, or +5% to all rolls in that craft.

I do think though that the craft should only be allowed to be taken in one craft. Though I guess if people want to make a purely crafting character they can take as many as they want. Though another fine point, I don't think you should be able to take it with the Fighter specific feat levels. Alright, Im done now.

I'm all for allowing people to burn feats for crafting advantage.  A +1 to rolls would make sense from having some initial training - and would be about the same as Weapon Focus after having trained with a decent swordsman in your youth.

[Interia_Discordius]

Actually, I was just crafting right now when the thought came to me.

Rolls and such are also based off of your stats. Strength, dexterity, etc. If you want to roleplay being better at certain things, raise those certain stats so, technically, you'd be getting better chances at succeeding in that craft. Just an easier, non-feat way to do it...That virtually anyone under level 40 can partake in

[MJZ]

Yeah, definitely, that helps characters have crafts associated with their class. You don't see too many wizards lugging around dozens of ingots to forge armor, for example.

And you can't make potions of healing at all unless you can cast healing spells, etc. When you cast buffs that raise both governing attributes 1d4+1, it's usually a 5-10% increase, which is always nice. But that's still regardless of which craft, and all. It's not exactly 'favoured.'

[Weeblie]

Levels in D&D terms symbolises how much time your character has spent doing a specific thing, and how good he does that. A guard that has been in duty for 20 years are most probably a much more skilled swordsman than the 18-years-old "boy" seeking adventures, yes. But, the guard in question would obviously not be starting at level 1 then (maybe... 5 instead?). This is why I would like to suggest for anyone creating a new character not to give him/her so extremly much "training from the past".

LynnJuniper, what those level 1 feats shows is more about what your character is born with and/or good at during "most of his life prior to this". It covers the span of his birth and his youth, to the "present day" which is the reason they remain as level 1 feats: You cannot "train" to become like that. You simply "are" that!

I'm against all sort of characters starting with extra levels, extra GPs, extra feats, extra items, extra... whatever! In my world, you have to make some sacrifices to become good at one thing. Balance, as it is called.

So, thumbs up for a feat giving 5% extra success chance (combat feats? or craft feats? your choice!), thumbs down for letting people start with a fixed amount of crafting XP.

[MJZ]

A feat does seem like the simplest way of implementing an addition like this. It would also be fair to the thousands of existing characters, they could take it on level up, too.

[darkstorme]

Well, it would be truly truly fair if the extra 5% towards success counted against XP earned on success, as well. *chuckles evilly*

[Dorganath]

Well, it would be truly truly fair if the extra 5% towards success counted against XP earned on success, as well. *chuckles evilly*

Actually, it does.  When you're better at a recipe, you get less XP for it.  When the recipe is trivial to do, you get nothing.

Well, except for a finished product.

[Hellblazer]

And you can't make potions of healing at all unless you can cast healing spells

Alchemy my friend, Alchemy.