Favoured Craft?

[MJZ]

I suppose someone at some point has already suggested this and it has been decided against, but I still think it's an interesting idea!

Couldn't we work in a sort of 'favoured craft' as a part of character creation? As with a language ear, if a character's biography involves some sort of crafting skill, baking, smelting, sewing, or what have you, they could request one skill to be 'favoured.' I suppose decreasing the required XP to gain levels in that favoured craft would involve some sort of heavy CNR scripting modifications, so maybe the character could begin at level 2 or 3 in the favoured craft.

Let me draw up an example. In Ariel's biography, she spent 14 years living with her foster father, an inventor, helping along with his zany gizmos and gadgets. I could then ask for tinkering to be a favoured craft due to this information.

I do of course realize every character should start from "scratch" in as many ways as possible, but I do find it a bit of a hamper to have a character with a supposed predisposition to something who's just as bad as anyone else at it, in reality.

I just thought it was an interesting idea. *Braces for impact*

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

That isn't a bad idea actually.  It could make RP interesting, but It shouldn't give PCs to big of an advantage, maybe like starting them at lvl 3 in a craft, but not making them amazing.

[Kindo]

Yeah, starting at Level 3 is not that big anyway, seeing how you can reach that in any craft in an hour or two. So this would be more of a symbolic, role-play related feature, which means, I'd love it.

[Acacea]

Why don't we just write in our bios how much training our mage has had that is above the average and request to start at level 3?

It would have to cost something, and when it comes to crafting, if people were allowed to have favored ones then should they really be able to level as normal in everything else, still? Think of wizard specializing! It's been pointed out several times that people excelling in many crafts, some of which have nothing to do with each other, is a little silly. So I imagine if something like this was put forward, the opposite would have to be true as well.

I don't think it's really likely, though. Just saying.

(1st level background feat: Craft - Tinker: +1 to rolls for tinkering... ! )

[Gulnyr]

Imagine that, as suggested above, a character has a background as a tinker, and spent 14 years tinkering prior to entering the world as a level 1 character.  

Now imagine that another character has a background as a town guard in a moderately dangerous area, and spent 14 years at it prior to entering the world as a level 1 character.

If the tinker's background (and the length of time spent in that background) gives her levels in tinkering, shouldn't the former guard who saw combat receive an attack bonus?  He's not just some fresh new kid who just got his first sword, so he should be better than a raw level 1 Fighter, right?  What makes a profession like tinkering or weapon smithing or cooking different than other professions, like being a guard?  Why should some professions be treated differently?  How much time is enough time to gain a bonus?  Would a background of 30 years or 50 years or 100 years get a bigger bonus than a background of 14 years?  Shouldn't it work that way?

I think you'd agree it would be pretty lame to see a lot of character submissions written with a paragraph or two just to get a couple of levels in a craft (or any other practical bonus), and it wouldn't be very special if every other character had it.  If this were something available to all new characters, wouldn't the character who had been tinkering for 14 years still be just as bad as everyone else at it, really?  I mean, any character with the right words in his submission would have tinkering levels, right?

If it really only takes a couple of hours to get two or three levels in a craft, then what would really be gained for all the work on a submission, and the work by the approvers, and the work by the team members who would build all the scripts and tools to bump new characters up X levels in a craft?  Why not just go get a level or two in the craft and then pretend they came from the character's background?

EDIT: Or, y'know, Acacea can write a shorter version.

[Witch Hunter]

Why don't we just write in our bios how much training our mage has had that is above the average and request to start at level 3?

It would have to cost something, and when it comes to crafting, if people were allowed to have favored ones then should they really be able to level as normal in everything else, still? Think of wizard specializing! It's been pointed out several times that people excelling in many crafts, some of which have nothing to do with each other, is a little silly. So I imagine if something like this was put forward, the opposite would have to be true as well.

I don't think it's really likely, though. Just saying.

(1st level background feat: Craft - Tinker: +1 to rolls for tinkering... ! )

A backgroud feat only selectable at level 1 is a good option for this.

[Gulnyr]

A backgroud feat only selectable at level 1 is a good option for this.

I believe that NWN is built and operates in a way that makes that impossible.  I think the haks are loaded only after you log into the world, which is why special subrace stats aren't applied until the character enters the game and why the experience display when choosing a character before logging in shows the wrong amount of experience needed for the next level.  In the same way, character creation takes place "outside" Layonara and the haks, so custom feats wouldn't show up during creation of a brand new character.  Custom level 1-only background feats would be cool, but I don't think they are possible.

That's my understanding, anyway.

[Acacea]

True!

I like the PRC server conversation character creator though...! They have new base classes and races (whose benefits are base stats, not magical effects), but because haks aren't loaded first, you usually need a client-side local character creator...but they made a server-one, too. Which makes me happy. Sort of. It would, if I were using it anywhere. The idea makes me happy! There we go.

It works in that you basically click recommended for everything in the Bioware creation, set your appearance if you want, and then you create your character with an in-game conversation, instead, so that everything is still in the hands of the server.

There is a downside in that if you set everything up the first time, you still have to do it again in the conversation even if you were happy with the standard stuff, but that's why you're supposed to make sure no one puts all the effort into the wrong creation, hehe.

[MJZ]

Why don't we just write in our bios how much training our mage has had that is above the average and request to start at level 3?

Oh come on, I don't think that's really fair. I did say I realize we want to keep new characters as "from scratch" as possible for obvious reasons. I see CNR as more of a roleplay element like the language ears, something to give your character an economic means other than killing and something to do. And Gulnyr, we do already see lots of "lame character submissions" squeezing in language ears, separating forced from thoughtful is what the approvers are there for, isn't it? Not every character with the "right words" would be able to squeeze in a random craft into their biography, unless it was suited to their character's past, I think that much is obvious.

And you really are being a bit over the top, I suggested there be a small fixed increase in a single CNR craft, I didn't question the foundations of the campaign's settings.

Good thing I braced for impact

[Gulnyr]

I see CNR as more of a roleplay element like the language ears, something to give your character an economic means other than killing and something to do.

But it isn't just a roleplay element.  Check out the characters inventories, and you'll find that very nearly all, if not every single one, even the super-epic characters, use items that were crafted.  Weapons, armor, enchantments, potions, rings, food - all the "best" stuff comes from crafting.  Crafting isn't just a minor, forgotten nook that has no impact.

And Gulnyr, we do already see lots of "lame character submissions" squeezing in language ears, separating forced from thoughtful is what the approvers are there for, isn't it? Not every character with the "right words" would be able to squeeze in a random craft into their biography, unless it was suited to their character's past, I think that much is obvious.

I am generally inclined to agree that some of the language ear requests seem forced.  As such, I don't think it would be good to encourage more of it by opening a new category for such "abuse."  At the same time, languages really are just roleplay elements.  You can't gain anything especially practical by knowing a language; you can just overhear other people's conversations and understand them.  

Good thing I braced for impact

I didn't mean to sound harsh.  The idea just raises a lot of questions for me, and doesn't seem to fit well.

[MJZ]

Of course it's not a forgotten nook that has no impact (roleplay isn't a forgotten nook either!) it fuels the player economy and I think it's meant to. But the average character doesn't become lvl20+ in any given craft all that quickly, that's where guilds come in handy.

It's not exactly harshness, it's just that you take whatever is said and, well, exaggerate it quite a bit.

But anyways, I understand if you don't think it fits well, that's why the first line of the thread is the way it is. I just had a couple of people suggest I post this idea up on the forums so others could take a look at it, so here I am.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

Yeah be nice to MJZ

[Kindo]

I think you're being unfair, Gulnyr. She never claimed it to be strictly a role-play element. And even if it was, it wouldn't mean it has no impact. Of course people use crafted items. I believe the entire idea with this suggestion was to open up for discussion, whether or not to add another element to your character's creation. It's not like two free levels in the role-played craft is going to severely unbalance anything or give that character an unfair advantage. It's more of a rather symbolic flavor of role-play, that I know many people would find interesting.

I think you'd agree it would be pretty lame to see a lot of character submissions written with a paragraph or two just to get a couple of levels in a craft[...]

Aren't the character approvers proficient enough to locate and point out sections that are obviously "crammed in", in a player's character submission? I think they are. And as MJZ already stated, we see it a lot already when it comes to language ears. I think the approvers handle it very well, and would do so with 'favored craft' as well. It's not that difficult.

[Dorganath]

At the risk of taking things too far off-topic, yes, the character approvers and GMs are savvy enough to spot the "squeezed in" stories about language ears, and those generally get denied.

But then to extend that analogy, it would be far easier to justify a craft than a language.

And for what it's worth, I think it's very fair to compare writing a good story to justify crafting levels at start with justifying character levels at start.  For example, why not claim that a character has spent 14 years practicing with a master swordsman and therefore he should qualify for at least 3 levels of fighter.  This surely wouldn't be fair for those characters who would have earned those 3 levels, however insignificant they might be in the grand scheme...and by that same token, why don't we just skip the formality and just give everyone 3 levels in their chosen class and one chosen craft, because once we open that possibility, everyone will do it.

And why stop there?  Why not say that the character has spent 14 years doing intense strength training and should therefore get +2 strength over what is normally available by the point-buy at character creation? *rhetorical question*

But whether we're talking about character or crafting levels, there's still a level of GM involvement and/or system support that would have to happen in such a case.  If we were to say "OK" to being able to write crafting levels into one's bio today, then there are maybe 4 people who have the access and know-how to actualy add those crafting levels by manually editing the database...or one of those 4 people would have to spend time crafting some kind of custom system to allow setting that somewhat easily...or any other number of possible solutions, all of which take time.

Now, time is not really an issue if it's an important thing, but let's consider for a moment if 3 levels of crafting would be important.  I submit is is not, and here's why. As has been stated, reaching level 3 in anything, crafting or character levels, is a relatively trivial exercise and something that is attained fairly rapidly and in that would have minimal impact overall.  For something that has such little impact, is it worth all the development time to add it into the world? Personally, I don't think so.

"Driving the economy" was given as a possible benefit above.  Again, I say it really wouldn't affect things that much. The economy is doing just fine in the gold department, some would even say too well.  There's a lot of gold floating around, and it ends up mostly in the hands of high-level crafters, where it does...what?  Not much except purchase guild houses...which then serve to help build those bank balances right on back up again, which then just gather dust.  What's needed is a way to pull gold completely out of the economy, not to find ways for it to generate more with no practical limit.

Speaking of guilds, it was said that they help produce high level crafters.  This is true, but then that touches on another point...

Why is it so important for a crafter to reach a high level in a short(er) period of time?

As an element of enhancing RP...well, now we're mixing messages.  Is level important to RP?  Character levels certainly are not.  Why should crafting levels be?

These are just questions, since this is a discussion, but questions that the developers try to consider before adding any system to the game world, or making a relatively significant investment in time trying to modify an existing one.

One last note on "enhancing RP"...

I think everyone would agree that it could enhance the RP of one's character by being able to claim decendency from nobility, or to have some prominent figure in Layonara's history as a blood relative.  And yet, we disallow things like this because of the perception of advantage and the need to eliminate the possiblity of claims later on in terms of inheritance or special privilege that was just "written in" rather than earned in-game.  By the same token, we don't allow people to have starting items like an heirloom sword or armor, even if they are used solely for RP purposes, because again, they give an unfair advantage, however small that advantage may seem.

Just some things to think about...

[darkstorme]

The problem I can see with this lies in the same direction as the Language Ears - GM interaction.  GMs have to be petitioned in-game to give language ears that are unusual to a character.  Languages are supposed to be reasonably difficult to acquire, so most characters do not have to do this.

I cannot see a crafting background being rare.  I've seen dozens, if not hundreds of people whose father was "a blacksmith/alchemist/gem cutter/tailor".  I'm not saying this is a bad thing, far from it!  These are reasonable NPC occupations that would earn reasonable money, and are pleasantly mundane (and therefore fit the "no nobility" submission requirements.)  This would make crafting background requests pretty much mundane, and therefore not requiring too much by way of writing in a bio - a paragraph, at most.

At which point, we have a couple more problems.  Now character approvers have another small item to address that could hold up the approval process (adjusting a bio to accept an ear can already be an issue). Second, it would involve the creation of a new and possible complex GM tool, as I know of no function built into Neverwinter script to add xp to the database.

[MJZ]

I definitely see some of your points, though still I don't see why it's valid to compare a favoured craft to adding stat points in strength or levels in fighter or what have you - those are entirely separate issues in my mind. I didn't tie the idea of having a favoured craft directly to adding a few levels in it - it was only an example of how possibly to implement it. Decreasing the required xp to level up in it was my original thought, but I assumed that would mean overhauling CNR - *shudders at the idea of it*

It seems like there's quite a bit of contentious conjecture going on - do we really need to get into the philosophy of why we can't have noble lineage or why we bother to level up at all or what have you? I could do it right back - "why do halflings get a bonus to their dexterity? What if my character is really clumsy but actually born smart, can I get etc etc" - that's just ridiculous. That's what stat distribution is for on character creation - if your character trained with his sword you take weapon focus on character creation. If he lifted weights that's why you added points into strength upon character creation. Stat and skill allocation DO have applications upon character creation. CNR has none. I thought it might be a feasible idea to suggest there be some manner of CNR application on character creation. This differs from requesting special bonuses to things already dealt with upon creation. Am I making sense on how those issues are separated?
 

If we were to say "OK" to being able to write crafting levels into one's bio today, then there are maybe 4 people who have the access and know-how to actualy add those crafting levels by manually editing the database...or one of those 4 people would have to spend time crafting some kind of custom system to allow setting that somewhat easily...or any other number of possible solutions, all of which take time.

I understand completely, and I know there is a lot of work going on, what with the new version and the new campaign and all. :p

[Dorganath]

Ability and skill point allocation can be done on character creation because they are part of the base engine.  CNR is an add-on, and a big one at that.  There is no way we can implement any sort of "pick your favored craft" during character creation because we simply do not have that kind of control of the game engine nor is there any support for it.

And while it would be perfectly feasible to do so after the character is created, such as in the starting area, again, we get into manpower to create such a thing, some way to verify that the correct choice was made based on what was approved, and so forth.

We also still have the question as to whether or not this is fair.  In no way am I saying that the concept is flawed, because in the convenient realities we try to bring into the game, it makes a certain sense.  However, there are hundreds (well, thousands) of characters on the server who did not ever have that chance or opportunity to get that early boost. For something like this to work and be proper, it would have to be a part of things from the start.

And then I keep coming back to the idea that if we had something like this, then everyone would choose the option, and then Level 3 in crafting would be the new Level 1....and then we've spent a lot of time to accomplish basically nothing.

If a custom feat could be made available at level 1 that gave a bonus to rolls (and then subsequent feats that stack on it, perhaps), then it might be a worthwhile pursuit, but since that's not really what we have to work with, the alternatives don't really seem to justify the effort nor really address the underlying idea.

[Hellblazer]

As an element of enhancing RP...well, now we're mixing messages.  Is level important to RP?  Character levels certainly are not.  Why should crafting levels be?

Here is what I think that crafting can be seen as RP base only.

If you are the kind of player that prefers RP instead of bashing, and isn't scared of highly repetitive things, you could end up making a char that never level up in its adventuring experience or so little that it has no impact, but be the best crafter out there.

That would mean that your renown is not for what you have done outside in the world but for the quality in crafting you can produce.

I think here of a jeweler. An image that comes to mind is someone that is not really in shape, scrawny, little, maybe fat with eyeglasses for staying inside all the time looking at smallish object there for over using his eyesight and giving it a strain.

Now we all know that these exist, do you see those guys actually going to south Africa and go mine the diamond themselves? no they have someone else go for them. In a RP sense this can be done as well in game. And if you have that type of character it is perfectly normal in a RP sense that he would spend most of his time crafting to reach the experience and fame necessary for his skills to be viewed as the master of it's craft.

Now the only things that prevent this IG is the fact that to support your crafting learning curve you need

1- the gold: You could always find that sugar daddy that would see in you the next wonder wise of tinkering or armor crafting.
 
2- Specific craft: like, scribing; enchanting and infusing, you have no choice to have adventuring level as well as your crafting experience, else you do not have the spells necessary to craft those.

So yes RP wise level in crafting can have a significant RP enhancing effect, it all depends on how masochist a player can be on limiting himself to doing only one thing and sticking to it in the long run.

[darkstorme]

Regardless, I feel that Dorg's point rather closes the discussion - whether or not crafting levels can be treated in an RP-rich sense, the game's architecture does not lend itself to making a feat that would help crafting rolls... and if it became like language ears, granted at submission

...Level 3 in crafting would be the new Level 1....and then we've spent a lot of time to accomplish basically nothing.

So while your point may be valid, Hellblazer, on the subject of favoured crafts, RP or not, I don't see any way to implement this in a way that avoids the stated pitfalls.

[Hellblazer]

My point is not on a favored class of RP I should have added that it bears no effect. But to the statment that Crafting can not have a valid impact in enhancing RP.

Som of my most enjoyable moments of RP have been made while me or Sonya or someone else where crafting.

Sonya will remember the time she and Rain were doing some smelting at the hot and steamy smealting sation at the smitty. Where He was showing her what litle he knew the same way a boyfriend would teach his girlfriend to play pool.