Helms Revamp

[lonnarin]

I was just noticing with Bjorn, a lvl 10 armorcrafter who has 55% on +2 Platinum Platemail with a 108xp yeild, that the platinum helm at 65% yeilds 77xp.  I then examined the helm under the magnifying glass and noted that it's a lvl 1 item, gold value 232gp and only gives +2 discipline and Concentration.  This makes it a Helm of Armor II, without any spells in it, and unlikely to get much use other than training armorcraft.  So I set upon brainstorming up some new designs that might see a little more play.

There are 6 seperate standard helm designs, Pot, Bascinet, Executioner's, Jutter, Spike, and Visor.  The can be made from Bronze, Iron, Platinum, Adamantium, Cobalt and Mithral.  Ozy and I mused 1stly how there aren't too many items that have deflection bonus on them (I think my archer's defense belt has a +1) though that the helm of armor already gives a decent amount with its charges/day... so it would not be overly unbalancing to afford such a bonus constant in moderation.  (by the time you can mine platinum, you pretty much already have the helm of armor II, a necklace of shield or something along those lines)  Also, the design types should depict the skill bonus one recieves.  So one type of helm will have a certain linked skill, and all types have some amount of deflection bonus. (except copper, which are just basic helms with no bonuses whatsoever)  Here's my chart.  

helm design -> Skill Bonus
---------------------------
Bascinet ----> Persuade (tis a fancy, noble's design)
Executioner -> Intimidate (nobody wants to be executed)
Jutter ------> Discipline (standard military design)
Pot ---------> Concentrate (standard cleric design)
Spike -------> Taunt (barbarianesque design)
Visor -------> Spot (obvious reasons)


Metal Type: Skill Bonus, Deflection Bonus, Level Req
--------------------------------------------------
Copper: no bonuses, Lvl req 1
Bronze: +1 Skill, no other bonuses, lvl 4 req
Iron: +2 Skill, +1 Deflection, Lvl 7 Req
Platinum: +3 Skill, +1 Deflection, Lvl 10 Req
Adamantium: +4 Skill, +2 Deflection, Lvl 13 Req
Cobalt: +5 Skill, +2 Deflection, Lvl 16 Req
Mithral: +6 Skill, +3 Deflection, Lvl 19 Req


Exceptionals, if included, should increase the SKill bonus by around 1/2, rounded down.  So Exceptional bronze has +2, Iron +3, Platinum +4, Adamantium +6, Cobalt +7, Mithral +9 to their skills.  The deflection bonus should remain the same.  Level Req should as well, since it's technically just an amazing quality of the same item.  (and it would be annoying to make something too well for yourself... if anything better-made should fit better!)

[Faldred]

To be consistent with other types of armors and weapons, (not to mention being a little stingier with the skill bonuses) I'd suggest changing the properties a bit:

BRONZE: +2 skill, Level 5 req.
IRON: +1 deflection, Level 5. req.
PLATINUM: +2 skill, +1 deflection
ADMANTIUM: +2 skill, +2 deflection
COBALT: +3 skill, +2 deflection
MITHRIL: +3 skill, +3 deflection

[lonnarin]

Aye, you get the picture.  So long as the deflection bonus ladder is around +1 for the Iron rung, +2 for adamantium and +3 for Mithral, it fits the progression we have for armors and weapons.  I wouldn't strip the Iron skill bonus though, as it's part of the physical design/style of the helm. maybe the skill bonuses "idle" a bit on progression, like cleric attack bonus vs fighter's...

Bronze: +1 skill
Iron: +1 skill, +1 deflection
Platinum: +2 skill, +1 Deflection
Adamantium: +2 Skill, +2 Deflection
Cobalt: +3 Skill, +2 Deflection
Mithral: +3 skill, +3 Deflection

With exceptionals identicle to regulars except a flat +2 skill bonus extra added to the pre-existing one. So Bronze & Iron +2, Plat and Addy +4, Cobalt and Mithral +5.

[Rayenoir]

I would suggest you reconsider the choice of making it a deflection bonus.  Deflection bonuses to AC are almost universally magical effects.  It is the property of deflection AC to do precisely that:  It makes attacks upon your person veer off instead of striking you directly.  Deflection AC adds to touch ac, and a normal helmet of any metal should not, I believe, offer that.  That is the purview of magical helms.

But to avoid being completely destructive with my criticism, I really like the idea of varied skill bonuses to helms, particularly the ones you've suggested.  It gives flavor to an item that is largely ignored in Layonara.  (Most people, in my experience, hold onto their Helmet of Armor II until they get something particularly useful to replace it)

[lonnarin]

True... perhaps an enchanted/infused variant of each helm... Helm of Deflection.  (ie: Platinum Executioner's Helm of Deflection, Mithral Jutter Helm of Deflection... etc.)  Gives some more things for the non-clerical non-potionmaking enchanters to practice on.  Take one of the skill bonus helms above and enchant them with expensive oil, mage armor or shield...  yeilds the helms with the deflection bonus +1 to +3, which is limited by the base metal of the helm.

So then, the SKill bonuses should be a bit higher, perhaps 2 skills/type, and the deflection bonus is enchanted.... *brainstorms some more*

[Rayenoir]

That would also be a step toward the standard helms being used for something at least, since the enchanted helm "recipes" should logically include the unenchanted version of the helm as a component.

[Eight-Bit]

As far as I know there is nothing that can be done with the AC bonus that Helms grant. They are universally Deflection AC, just like Cloaks and Belts. I like this idea by the way, it helps break away from the 'standard equipment' feel that Helms of Armor have.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

I fully support this idea, though 8bit... You can change the types of bonuses to any item in the toolset.

I'd say that Armor AC would be rather pointless, as it wouldn't stack with any other Armor bonuses... Deflection seems like the only safe bet.

But if that's the case, we could just make some enchanting recipies that would take your normal helms that we have now, and add a deflection AC bonus.

[Eight-Bit]

Stephen_Zuckerman - 7/23/2006 1:35 PM I fully support this idea, though 8bit... You can change the types of bonuses to any item in the toolset. I'd say that Armor AC would be rather pointless, as it wouldn't stack with any other Armor bonuses... Deflection seems like the only safe bet. But if that's the case, we could just make some enchanting recipies that would take your normal helms that we have now, and add a deflection AC bonus.

 I can't seem to find any way to change the Helm ac bonus away from Deflection? Seems to be a nifty idea, how do you do it?

[Variable]

Helms can only be deflection AC, as Eight-Bit already said.

I also like this idea, especially since  the current helms of any type tend not to be made because they are not worth the metal that it takes to make them.

I do personally like the +3 to Concentration and +3 to Discipline that the adamantium helmet has, although it does not quite seem worth the metal over a platnium, one which is frequently dropped.

But because I am a cleric I see deflection AC as rather useless because several of my spells give me bonuses to it which would not stack with the helms.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

However, other classes who don't get buffs often except in large, balanced parties, would find deflection incredibly useful. Non-shieldbearing fighters would find an extra point or two of AC useful, as would rogues, rangers, monks... I'm not sure about the Layonaran monks, in terms of helms, but I get the feeling that they'd come in handy.

Barbarians (the few we have) and mage/sorcerers would find them helpful, too, even if the mages would usually have spells that wouldn't stack.

You never know when you need a wee bit more AC, and the fact that helms provide NO protection doesn't make much sense to me. I'd MUCH rather have some sort of head protection in a melee than have nothing more than my head.

[Faldred]

lonnarin - 7/21/2006  5:27 PM

Aye, you get the picture.  So long as the deflection bonus ladder is around +1 for the Iron rung, +2 for adamantium and +3 for Mithral, it fits the progression we have for armors and weapons.  I wouldn't strip the Iron skill bonus though, as it's part of the physical design/style of the helm. maybe the skill bonuses "idle" a bit on progression, like cleric attack bonus vs fighter's...

Bronze: +1 skill
Iron: +1 skill, +1 deflection
Platinum: +2 skill, +1 Deflection
Adamantium: +2 Skill, +2 Deflection
Cobalt: +3 Skill, +2 Deflection
Mithral: +3 skill, +3 Deflection

With exceptionals identicle to regulars except a flat +2 skill bonus extra added to the pre-existing one. So Bronze & Iron +2, Plat and Addy +4, Cobalt and Mithral +5.

Okay, make Bronze +2 skill and Iron +1 skill, +1 AC -- this goes along with Bronze and Iron being roughly comparable in level requirements while offering slightly different features (compare to weapons -- Bronze +2 damage, Iron +1 to-hit and damage, both level 5 req.)

Frankly, anything that opens up the Bronze market a bit would be appreciated by journeymen crafters.  

[lonnarin]

I personally like the deflection bonuses for helms, as that's exactly what a helm does, deflects things that would normally hit your head.  Seeing people have the same AC with or without a helm on always seemed silly to me in NWN... not so much in PnP though where called shots on an unprotected head often are easier than breaching a huge platemail.  However, deflection rings 1-3 are also valuable enchanted items... so I do see how we might need to seperate standard helms from "magical" ones.  In that case, I made a few variants to the variants

Scenario 1: Increase skill, no deflection until enchanted in a seperate attempt.  These helms are made with only the skill bonuses, but now 2 each as per the discipline/concentrate standard.  I'd suggest then enchanting recipes with use these base items and enhance them to the deflection standard.  (mage-only, casting shield into them with the enchanting oil... clerics have enough of a leg up on enchanting as it is )  Of course, they would then need an incremental progession.

Bronze: +1 skills lvl 3
Iron: +2 skills, lvl 6
Platinum: +3 skills, lvl 9
Adamantium: +4 Skills, lvl 12
Cobalt: +5 Skills, lvl 15
Mithral: +6 skills, lvl 18



you can also stagger the 2 skills into primary and secondary progressions if the skill bonus above seems too high...

Copper: +1 Primary skill, lvl req 1
Bronze: +1 Primary and Secondary Skill, lvl req 4
Iron: +2 Primary Skill, +1 Secondary Skill, Lvl req 6
Platinum: +2 Primary and Secondary skills, lvl req 10
Adamantium: +3 Primary Skill, +2 Secondary Skill, Lvl Req 13
Cobalt: +3 primary and Secondary Skills, Lvl Req 15
Mithral: +4 Primary Skill, +4 Secondary, Level Req 18 (kind of jumps, but it IS Mithral after all, and personally a lvl 18 item with only +8 total is a bit too weak, so I naturally favor the previous skill chart just above)


Helm Types w/ 2 Linked Skills
------------------------------
Bascinate: Bluff & Persuade (people assume you're a noble who can do no wrong... favored of incognito drow)
Jutter: Discipline & Parry (Standard in military, juts forward for balance and the face helps redirect incoming blades)
Visor: Spot & Search (clear field of vision)
Spike: Taunt & Tumble (your armor looks like a weapon, foes try to avoid you, and overestimate your prowress)
Executioner: Intimidate & Gather Information  (people have nightmares about these helms)
Pot: Concentrate and Lore (deep within the echoey seclusion o the pothelm, casters find solace blocking out the outside world, better to withrad within one's own thoughts and ruminate on their own vader-voiced words)




Scenario 2: FORTIFICATION vs SNEAK ATTACK!  We don't have much that does fortification bonus in the recipes, and most killing blows are usually head-shots...  Limiting the upper end Mithral to 15% in this progression, as that's about the amount of your body that your head takes up.

Bronze: +2 skills
Iron: +2 skills, 5% Fortification
Platinum: +3 Skills, 5% Fortification
Adamantium: +3 Skills, 10% Fortification
Cobalt: +4 skills, 10% Fortification
Mithral: +4 Skills, 15% Fortification


Ideally I want lvl req and value of helms to be comperable to at least Chain Shirt armors of the same metal type...  right now you can wear copper fullplate with a mithral helm... fashion no-no!


Side Scenario: Helm of Deflection 1-3.  Take the base helms from above, and toss them in an enchanting pool.  Might have to make a myriad of like-recipes (6 of each type) in order to accomidate the 6 styles of helms.  So there'd be Executioner's Helm of Deflection I with intimidate skill, Pot Helm of Deflection II with concentrate, Jutter Helm of Deflection III.. etc.

Helm of Deflection I: Iron Helm, Enchanting Oil, 2 Spells of Shield, Base Enchanting 5th
Helm of Deflection II: Adamantium Helm, Enchanting Oil, 4 Spells of Shield, Base Enchanting 9th
Helm of Deflection III: Mithral Helm, Enchanting Oil, 6 Spells of Shield, Base Enchanting 13th

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Actually, with a bladed weapon, Pyyran would NEVER go for the head. Blunt... Maybe, but more likely joints. The fortification would have to be magical.

[Rayenoir]

Your latest suggestions are something I can really get behind, lonnarin.  Good show.