Not just saying CNR sucks

[shermantank]

Hello all,

although I am saying that it does in some ways, and I don't think that's in dispute, it does nobody any good to moan if you can't offer an alternative, so here goes -

ACQUIRING CNR ITEMS

Have only a single attempt at an any CNR after which it is lost, allow the usual chain of 'aargh this is difficult to dig' and chance of tools breaking, but at the end instead of a random success for 1 or 2 items have a guaranteed success of a random number of items depending on the nature of the CNR, eg. 3-6 for gems, 5-10 sand (after all, how hard is it to fill bags from a pile of loose sand?). Should be a reasonably practical code change although setting the range for each CNR needs care.

CRAFTING ITEMS

I'd like to see percentage chances removed and have the recipes adjusted according to level ie. if Trivial requires 1 CNR, 1 level below requires 2 CNR, 2 below requires 4, 3 below requires 8, 4 or more below is impossible, but that's a huge code rewrite!

Have some reward for a failed craft attempt, based on percentage chance of success just as the current system rewards success based on percentage chance of failure. At least then there's a small benefit while you're working on raising you're craft skill and also some compensation for failing to craft an item you needed that wasn't quite trivial for you. Should be a very simple code change.

MARKETS FOR ITEMS

Pawnbrokers should buy items (all items, not just craftable ones) at a price based on their 'lens' value eg. 40% in large towns, 20% in small towns. The pawnbroker should then retain the items until the next server reset and offer them for sale at the 'lens' value. This creates a more liquid market and stabilises prices at the 'lens' value which is under GM control and adds interest to the world by wanting to visit pawnbrokers. How easy that is to write I suppose depends on the pawnbroker retaining stock.

SO . . .

Three ideas, what do you think?

[Hellblazer]

I like the pawnshop idea.

[Dorganath]

shermantank - 8/15/2006  6:12 AM Hello all,      although I am saying that it does in some ways, and I don't think that's in dispute, it does nobody any good to moan if you can't offer an alternative, so here goes -      ACQUIRING CNR ITEMS      Have only a single attempt at an any CNR after which it is lost, allow the usual chain of 'aargh this is difficult to dig' and chance of tools breaking, but at the end instead of a random success for 1 or 2 items have a guaranteed success of a random number of items depending on the nature of the CNR, eg. 3-6 for gems, 5-10 sand (after all, how hard is it to fill bags from a pile of loose sand?). Should be a reasonably practical code change although setting the range for each CNR needs care.

 In some ways this is already the case. Sand, gems, and clay are actually not limited in the number of items that can be taken from a single deposit at any given time. There isn't some 1-2 item cap on those like there is for plants, and there's no 10 item limit as there is on ores and trees. Ask anyone who has done this for a while. You can either get a single bit of CNR, or you can dig far more (10 or more) out of one single deposit. And it wasn't too long ago that gem, sand and clay deposits could have returned nothing at all. A change a few months ago ensures at least one bit of CNR is returned when the deposit is used up. We can limit things right away, if that's what you want, but the lack of a cap now is probably working in everyone's favor overall.
  Regarding the random chances for success, emptying the deposit, etc...these things are the result of a lot of balancing and twiddling. Right now they're pretty much where we want them. If we were to raise or lower the amount of a particular CNR that can be available, then we have too look at whether it affects other things. Changes were made to CNR just over 8 months ago (and underwent months of testing before that) because certain aspects of CNR and the crafting process were becoming unbalanced and were causing some degree of havoc in the economy of Layonara.
     

CRAFTING ITEMS      I'd like to see percentage chances removed and have the recipes adjusted according to level ie. if Trivial requires 1 CNR, 1 level below requires 2 CNR, 2 below requires 4, 3 below requires 8, 4 or more below is impossible, but that's a huge code rewrite!

 Yeah, it would be a nearly complete rewrite and restructuring. Personally, I don't see why someone could not attempt to craft something 4 or more levels above their level of expertise. I'd also point out that when a craftable item is at one's crafting level, with no other considerations, that chance of success is 50%, whereas trivial is 100%. In your scheme, no one would be able to start out crafting anything, ever.
  It also sounds like an automatic chance for success, given sufficient CNR. This is surely something we do not want.    

Have some reward for a failed craft attempt, based on percentage chance of success just as the current system rewards success based on percentage chance of failure. At least then there's a small benefit while you're working on raising you're craft skill and also some compensation for failing to craft an item you needed that wasn't quite trivial for you. Should be a very simple code change.

 This would in effect speed up crafting, which is something we do not wish to do. Among those changes I mentioned from 8-ish months ago was a limit to the number of items that could be crafted at one time. This was done to slow crafting down a bit but also to avoid people exploiting certain aspects of the CNR XP code to level even more rapidly. Rewards for failure, outside of what already exist, most likely will not happen. Some crafts return CNR even on failure (sawdust, gem dust, mangled metals, etc.). While one can argue that there is real experience in failure, we're not coding the system that way. The amount of experience you get reflects a reward for doing things right, not doing things wrong. This reward of course decreases as the item in question becomes easier to make, ending when the item is trivial of course, which provides no further lessons or challenges, and thereby gives no XP...only finished items.  

MARKETS FOR ITEMS      Pawnbrokers should buy items (all items, not just craftable ones) at a price based on their 'lens' value eg. 40% in large towns, 20% in small towns. The pawnbroker should then retain the items until the next server reset and offer them for sale at the 'lens' value. This creates a more liquid market and stabilises prices at the 'lens' value which is under GM control and adds interest to the world by wanting to visit pawnbrokers. How easy that is to write I suppose depends on the pawnbroker retaining stock.

 Pawn brokers already do purchase based on the lens price. You may not agree with the percentage that we use for calculating, but it does do exactly what you suggest. Raising the percentage that pawns use when buying goods would have economic implications. Again, pointing to the changes from months ago, we did actually consider changing the pawns so that they would buy goods at enough of a price so that the crafter could at least break even or make a smallish profit on items sold. This was to be coupled with a requirement, however, whereby every crafting attempt would cost a certain amount of gold, that amount depending upon what was being crafted. The reasoning for this would be to draw gold out of the economy, something it desperately needed at the time (and perhaps still does, but to a lesser extent).
  In the end, this idea was judged to be too extreme and would have required a lot of testing and balancing to get the ratios just right. The system is in place and can be turned on however very easily.
 

SO . . .                    Three ideas, what do you think?  

 I think it's great that you've given this some thought. The problem however is that there are very few things in the game where we can just change one thing and not have it affect other things. CNR and the economy of Layonara are greatly dependent upon each other. CNR is a major stabilizing/destabilizing force in the Layonara economy. We understand that aspects of crafting can be tedious, frustrating...even extremely annoying...but they are as they are for a lot of very good reasons, and it is something we do take very seriously whenever any changes are proposed.
  You are seeking to change some things which are probably most visible to you, and that's completely understandable. But such changes will ripple outward, and so what may seem like a simple change really is not all that simple when you take everything into account as a whole.

[forsettii]

Greetings,

Gathering CNR items.  Well that was the way it was done when the designers created it.  Layonara has modified it somewhat, it is not perfect but you still have to deal with the NWN script engine.

Hrnac and Festyx created CNR and I honestly don't know what if anything they are doing at the moment.  I did use some code to modify it from another system that would give you a chance to create an exceptional item.  Which takes the code further away from the standard version that you would download from the NWN vault.

Market Value for all items.  Issue here is that this is not a pen and paper game.  A player can play massive amounts of time.  That will make him a wealthy person if he sold everything thing he could find.  To balance the world you really need to somewhat limit the amount of gold in the system and in the world.  You really don't want a character wipe every few months years.  But there are some people that have made a huge fortune and have way more money than anyone should.  But we had no way to remove money from the game on a consistant basis.

So to answer your question sure something could be done.  But it really boils down to time and resources. When we start looking at Layonara (what I would call Version 3) using the NWN2 engine people are going to have to develop and test a whole lot more items.

[shermantank]

Hello again,

there seems to be some confusion about the point(s) I raised.

I am NOT claiming that crafting should be easy. It should be difficult but it should be difficult because the CNR are hard to reach, well guarded. The current system makes it difficult by being deliberately obstructive at the crafting stage, making Layonara tedious and frustrating to the point where it as painful and objectionable to play sometimes.

It's fine by me that I cannot acquire diamonds or adamantium, and so cannot make anything requiring them, not yet anyway, that gives me something to work towards. I can even accept having to make a hundred attempts to craft a useless and unwanted lesser version of an item that I do want even though it has the same ingredients on the grounds of 'skill level'. What really grates is when those hundred attempts mean doing nothing for two weeks online except clicking on the same pile of sand over and over again and reading 'hope my shovel doen't break' which just isn't amusing for the millionth time.

My point about CNR wasn't the quantity returned it was the pointless monotony of acquiring it, why shouldn't the same yield be available from a single click?

As for XP changes in crafting making it easier to level, well yes it would, it would exactly halve the number of attempts between levels.

I now think that's actually a good idea, and that craft levelling should be easier because it damps down the economy - here's why -

(A true story)

I wanted platinum armour for my character.

There are two ways to do that - either buy it - or learn to make it.

My smelting was already reasonable because I make my own arrows, so I spent half my online time for about a month learning to make armour, mining copper, tin, iron, getting into groups for platinum, making shields, bronze armour, helms, iron armour, and eventually, at the second attempt, the platinum armour that I wanted. All the time that I spent doing this I enjoyed because I was making steady progress towards my goal.

Or I could have spent the same time hacking my way around the world to gain another xp level and fill my pockets with coin.

In the crafting version I lost money on ingredients, a small decrease in the money supply in Layonara, in the buying version I wouuld easily have made twice the price of the armour, all of which money would be added into circulation now.

So if the economy of Layonara is overheating then I accept that the idea about pawnbrokers paying more for items is bad, but I also point out that restricting the availability of desirable items to being by purchase only is bad too because it creates a higher demand for coin to be generated in-game when characters can't make something for themselves or even make something of a useful level that can be bartered with.

(Another true story)

My current crafting attempts have been towards level 3 crystal rods to try to trade with an enchanter for a level 3 enhancement that I want. Frankly it's just far too much trouble to bother making the one extra craft level in tinkering that I need to do it. There's no adventuring work or bartering that I could possibly do that's of interest to any character in the game that's capable of making level 3 ehancement rods, so that means I'll be buying one. That means I have to go out and get the money to pay for it, and more money added into the economy.

I do understand that there's a complex balance between crafting and the economy, so if the economy is perfect as it is now then it's probably too risky to change crafting. It looks like I'll be buying almost everything from now on, but at least I won't have to read 'sheesh how deep must I go' again. I'll do better for XP too, I haven't levelled for a while, been too busy crafting :-).

Thanks to everybody who replied, have fun!

[shermantank]

I forgot to say that the main reason for the pawnbroker idea in the first place was to introduce some compensation for all the effort in crafting unwanted items. It was not as a means of making money by itself, since in most cases more money can be made by going out and killing monsters. If crafting wasn't so frustrating to level at then tipping the results into a trashcan wouldn't seem so bad either.

[Dorganath]

I believe I understood what you were saying just fine.  I encourage you to go back and read again what I wrote above....but I'll also reply specifically to some points below.
 

shermantank - 8/16/2006  7:12 AM Hello again,      there seems to be some confusion about the point(s) I raised.      I am NOT claiming that crafting should be easy. It should be difficult but it should be difficult because the CNR are hard to reach, well guarded. The current system makes it difficult by being deliberately obstructive at the crafting stage, making Layonara tedious and frustrating to the point where it as painful and objectionable to play sometimes.      It's fine by me that I cannot acquire diamonds or adamantium, and so cannot make anything requiring them, not yet anyway, that gives me something to work towards. I can even accept having to make a hundred attempts to craft a useless and unwanted lesser version of an item that I do want even though it has the same ingredients on the grounds of 'skill level'. What really grates is when those hundred attempts mean doing nothing for two weeks online except clicking on the same pile of sand over and over again and reading 'hope my shovel doen't break' which just isn't amusing for the millionth time.

 You're certainly not the first person to bring up the speed and monotony of crafting...and you won't be the last I'd wager.  It's not amusing, no.  But did you ever consider why we might have done that?  As a player, your perspective is generally going to be centered around you and your characters.  This is fine, but as GMs and developers, we have to look at the bigger picture.  If sand was faster to get, then everything made from sand would be faster to make. Primarily rods, I'm guessing, would be produced in a fraction of the time.....which would probably increase the supply. Rods of all grades are always in demand, so I don't see these things getting discarded or sold to pawns. More gold enters the economy in a shorter amount of time without any sort of out-flow, and things ripple outward from there.    

My point about CNR wasn't the quantity returned it was the pointless monotony of acquiring it, why shouldn't the same yield be available from a single click?

 Well, because the yield of those deposits are not pre-determined when they spawn in.  Plants, fruit trees and other similar harvetable CNR placeables do get predetermined within their available ranges.  Deposits of ore, sand, clay and gems, as well as trees, do not. As I'm sure you've noticed, each attempt at gaining CNR from something that requires a tool bears a certain chance of tool breakage.  There's also a chance that the given deposit will be used up with each attempt.  To implement your one-click method, we'd have to re-do tool breakage, probably making it much more likely per "attempt".
  As I said above, speeding up harvesting of things like this would speed up the production of items that require said CNR.  Also, to be fair across the board, we'd have to do the same thing for trees, ores, minerals and clay, all of which use tools for harvesting, all of which bear random chances of returns and tool breakage.  This would speed up wood crafting, smelting. weapon crafting, armor crafting, gem crafting and whatever else I'm forgetting.  The increased speed puts more things into the market at once, more gold into the economy in a short period of time.
  This is not good for the economy.
  As I said before, months ago we made changes to slow down crafting.  We did this for economic reasons. We didn't do it to be monotonous.
   

As for XP changes in crafting making it easier to level, well yes it would, it would exactly halve the number of attempts between levels.

 We considered also increasing the XP gained per successful crafting attempt when we changed things in January, such that leveling would actually be significantly faster than it is now with fewer excess items put into the economy.  This in itself would be a bit unbalancing, however, because we'd just make crafting all that much easier without anything to balance it out.  It was going to be put in with the GP requirement for each attempt to drain gold from the economy, and the increased prices at the pawn brokers so that crafters could potentially break even or make a tiny, tiny monetary profit, but it was decided to not go that route at the time. Speeding up crafting helps the PCs but it does nothing really good for the world of Layonara itself.  In fact, it does more harm than good from an economic standpoint.  You surely do not want the economy to collapse, because that would most likely result in a full character wipe, and extreme measures taken thereafter to try and prevent it from happening again.
  In addition, increased crafting speed would not be very fair to those who had to struggle with things under the old system.      

I now think that's actually a good idea, and that craft levelling should be easier because it damps down the economy - here's why -      (A true story)      I wanted platinum armour for my character.      There are two ways to do that - either buy it - or learn to make it.      My smelting was already reasonable because I make my own arrows, so I spent half my online time for about a month learning to make armour, mining copper, tin, iron, getting into groups for platinum, making shields, bronze armour, helms, iron armour, and eventually, at the second attempt, the platinum armour that I wanted. All the time that I spent doing this I enjoyed because I was making steady progress towards my goal.      Or I could have spent the same time hacking my way around the world to gain another xp level and fill my pockets with coin.      In the crafting version I lost money on ingredients, a small decrease in the money supply in Layonara, in the buying version I wouuld easily have made twice the price of the armour, all of which money would be added into circulation now.      So if the economy of Layonara is overheating then I accept that the idea about pawnbrokers paying more for items is bad, but I also point out that restricting the availability of desirable items to being by purchase only is bad too because it creates a higher demand for coin to be generated in-game when characters can't make something for themselves or even make something of a useful level that can be bartered with.
 

 I actually see nothing wrong with either scenario above.  If you can work up to making armor or whatever, then great!  Please do!  If not, then purchase it. In the consumer model though, remember that whoever you buy from probably had his/her own expenses in producing the items to start.  Also, unless you don't loot, it's entirely possible to come out even or ahead in the scenario where you go to make your own stuff through whatever craft.
  Honestly, I don't think we want everyone to be able to excel at any/all crafts should the desire strike them.  Speeding up crafting really is not beneficial unless it's coupled with other measures that balance things overall.  It's a very tricky process, and it's never as simple as changing one "little" thing.
   

(Another true story)      My current crafting attempts have been towards level 3 crystal rods to try to trade with an enchanter for a level 3 enhancement that I want. Frankly it's just far too much trouble to bother making the one extra craft level in tinkering that I need to do it. There's no adventuring work or bartering that I could possibly do that's of interest to any character in the game that's capable of making level 3 ehancement rods, so that means I'll be buying one. That means I have to go out and get the money to pay for it, and more money added into the economy.

 I'm sorry that it's "too much trouble to bother" but people have and continue to do it, despite the tedium.  

I do understand that there's a complex balance between crafting and the economy, so if the economy is perfect as it is now then it's probably too risky to change crafting. It looks like I'll be buying almost everything from now on, but at least I won't have to read 'sheesh how deep must I go' again. I'll do better for XP too, I haven't levelled for a while, been too busy crafting :-).

 It is a complex balancing act....and if crafting is too tedious for you at the moment, then take a break...go out...have some fun.  
  Just so that everything's clear, I do understand your comments about tedium.  My main character is an alchemist, and that is a very resource-intensive craft with very little payback until one can make the higher-level items. I just want you to understand that a lot of thought and many different factors go into how the systems in-game have been implemented. I wouldn't say anything is perfect, but it's working fairly well as it is now, overall.

[Olme]

Crafting ..tedious, frustrating, expensive, and even at times even dangerous when gathering the required CNR.

But then, after an arduous journey, you will eventually become a master at your chosen craft(s). When that occurs, it is a very good feeling, to have knowledge, skills that very few in the world possess.

The fact it is so difficult makes the mastery of a trade all the more sweeter.


This is, after all, akin to a medieval, non mass production economy.

But even here you have an advantage. If it were in RL (historical) you would most probably only become a master in one trade  over a lifetime, and adventuring would be only a dream.

And the 'obstacles' are the same for all...it is a level playing field.

[shermantank]

Thanks again for the feedback on this.

Now I know it's all meant to be that way I won't worry about it.

[stragen]

Hello Friends,

A long while ago I suggest an alternative to the current volume and weight regulated crafting system for tinkering.  That instead of volume to restrict the rate at which items are created additional difficult to acquire components are added to the receipe.  The debate degenerated, however as we didn't get much feedback from the development team (apart from Talan) I will link it to this thread.

http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=26565&posts=17&mid=166706&highlight=&highlightmode=1&action=search#M166706

Stragen