Paper and Sandpaper

[Willowraine]

Why oh why is paper and sandpaper listed under food? A would think a tinkers furnace would work just as well and the press could easily be substituted with the tinkers device or toolbox and make just as much sense as a farmers press used to make juices and oils.

Another issue I have with it is the incredible jump from making oak to making mahogony. Currently I can make oak with an 80% chance at level 6 foodcrafting at each step, but going to mahagony its reduced to a 20% chance at each step. Is it really that much a a jump in difficulty to using one type of sawdust to the next? I really dont think so. As it is now I have to start making alchoholic beverages in order to learn how to make better sandpaper?? And making sandpaper makes me learn how to cook food better??

I know that the crafting system can only be so realistic without becoming so involved that noone will want to bother with it but in my opinion the making of paper and sandpaper should be changed to tinkering and the gap in the percentage from making one type to another should be reduced, its only sandpaper, the real challenge should be the final object.

In summation I would like to say that at the very least the gap in percentages should be reduced even if you leave it under food crafting. If I have an 80% chance at oak at level 6 foodcrafting, I feel a 50-60% chance at mahagony would not be unreasonable with a 30-40% chance at yew. The final object would still be a challenge to make and still use up the sandpaper in the process.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Why oh why did you post the exact same thread in two places?

Have you ever tried making paper, Willow? It ain't easy. The type of wood you have has a HUGE effect on how the paper ends up; the way the pulp sticks together is different for different woods, and even different parts of the tree. Now, I'm not saying that the types of wood act the way they do in Layo in real life, but the difference in difficulty reflects both the power/cost of the finished item, and the difficulty in making the finished item.

If your character's having trouble making sandpaper, how do you get better? Make more sandpaper.

As for why it's a cross-disciplines skill... Let me put it this way. If you were a baker instead of a tinker, you'd be fine with the way things are. Heck, I'm probably as fine with it as I am because Pyyran can cook, but then, he's not really concerned with making high-end wood products. The builders who made the CNR system purposefully made sandpaper a cooking skill to encourage cross-discipline crafting, and interaction between different crafters. Need some yew sandpaper, but don't know an oven from a keg? Don't waste the yew; get a kitchen KING to do it! (Like Jennara.) Making swords, but need a few essences of grace to make that Swashbuckler's Sabre? Call your friendly, neighborhood alchaemist.

*He shrugs.* I'm afraid that's one thing that isn't going to change unless there's a much more substantial outcry from the existing woodcrafting players.

[Willowraine]

I posted in the wrong place the first time is why in two places and planned on asking the first to be deleted, just got sidetracked and havent gotten to it, which I will now since it bothers you as much as making sandpaper food does me.


Making paper, lets see, wood pulp, wet it, put books on top of it, let it dry, tadah, simple if brittle paper. Done it, seen it done. Making modern paper, totally different. Dont base you perceptions of paper on what we have today. Shred the wood fine enough and it matters not what type you start with. Well, maybe a few woods wouldnt work too well.


Make more sandpaper huh? More oak, or waste the mahagony, as far as if I were a cook instead of tinker, well, I am, but because I make sandpaper, not food. I would have to make an amazing amount of oak to get even to a 30% chance of making mahagony, maybe 40% before oak becomes trivial and provides no more xp's, then its on to brewing alchohol in order to learn how to make better sandpaper, makes alot of sense, not. If it was under tinkering I would still be saying something about the difference in the percentages. If I had spent tons of time brewing and cooking and sandpaper was an easy thing for me when I got around to it I'd still have a problem with it being under cooking. It makes zero sense.

Cross-discipline? How many crosses do I need to make a bow for crying out loud, I have to be a cook, a tinker, and a woodcrafter to be a bowyer/fletcher, rediculous. Making sandpaper has nothing to do with food or beverages, period. Even if it was put under tinker I'd still be at the same relative level anyway because of the reduction in xp's the better I get.

As far as the power of the final item reflects the difficulty of the pieces needed it isnt reflected in some of the other skills I have. Some things are trivial for me to make and are components for some very high end items, which they should be, they are after all simple to make (simple probably not the right word)


Outcry? Well, heres my outcry, and its posted here cause I couldnt find any other thread on it. Not like I'm gonna go insane or anything if it doesnt change, and the only way to way to cause change is to speak out, hence this thread. Someone has to start it off and if it goes nowhere then I know I tried and didnt sit around in some dark corner complaining to myself like an idiot.

[Dorganath]

Willowraine,
  Please try to be calm.
  There's really one word that explains why paper/parchment is under cooking: Balance
  If you wanted to get really technical, it might fit best under woodcrafting, since, well, it's wood. We have a bunch of cross-craft requirements for recipes because it keeps things balanced overall. Keep in mind, you don't have to be really good at all crafts, nor do you need to try to make or obtain all necessary items for a particular recipe all on your own. Want sandpaper, try buying sandpaper from someone, or trade it for something you can make.

[Willowraine]

Calm? Who's upset? As far as the technicals, I do understand why it isnt under woodcrafting. But as I stated, if noone says anything then nothing gets done at all. At least now there has been some discussion.

[Dorganath]

The tone of your previous post seems a big aggitated, but therein lies the difficulty of a text-only medium.

This topic actually comes up about every 6 months or so, actually.  But thanks for thinking enough about it to make the request/suggestion.

[Weeblie]

Willowraine - 6/11/2006  7:38 PM

I would have to make an amazing amount of oak to get even to a 30% chance of making mahagony, maybe 40% before oak becomes trivial and provides no more xp's.

Crafting do take a lot of time and effort. And that's why it's so rewarding in the end.

My character is currently a level 16 enchanter. Guess how much she has practiced to reach her current level? Well, an estimation is that she has enchanted about 500 different things and spent around 50,000 gold at the same time...

Now... Check the tradeskill list and you'll see that there are high level woodcrafters. How did they reach their positions? With a lot of time and effort I bet. So, it is hard but definitely feasible.

As long as the system is equal for everyone, I'm fine with it. Changing the system now would be very unfair for all the old crafters (who already has spent gazillions of hours doing it).

Only my own thoughts, of course...

[Willowraine]

I didnt realize its been mentioned, I looked. Last time I was around there wasnt sandpaper so..... Oh well. Not like I dont have my sources even after being gone so long.

Guess I'll have to get in earlier on the next CNR screw-up

[Dorganath]

Sandpaper usually gets lumped in with the general parchment/scroll making bit, so you may not find sandpaper explicitly, but it's all pretty much the same thing.

[darkstorme]

Also, to weigh in on the subject, while the baker's press and oven aren't exactly the same as those used by parchment-makers of years gone by, they're closer than anything else in the CNR game.  Only alchemy and baking would involve mixing the combination of water, shredded wood, and adhesives to make usable paper, not tinkering (which is more like engineering, or gadgetry) and the tinker's kiln is certainly the wrong temperature, as would be the smithy.

I think it makes a lot of sense for paper to be placed under baking, since it's not QUITE useful for enough items for it to be given its own CNR category.  If all letters and messages had to be conveyed on paper, and all histories/backstories for character development scribed on parchment, you can bet that paper would deserve its own category.  Since it's more limited, it gets lumped in with baking, and I honestly think that makes sense - it's not a "screw-up".