Scrolls for use as ingredients

[Xandor Loriland]

I would like to suggest that scrolls be allowed to count in recipies as ingredients.  Most of the recipies state that a certain number of "spells of XXX" be used.  This would allow more crafters access to creating various items.  This would allow for more trade since certain crafters would seek scrolls for spells they cannot cast to make items.  This would especially be applicable to infusing and enchanting.  It could spur trading between scribers and infusers and enchanters.  Just a suggestion.

[Talan Va'lash]

Well, scrolls are used in recipes as ingredients.

However, not how you mean it.  Some recipes just call for scrolls, some for spells.  The way the mechanics works I don't think its really possible, since the ingredient would have to be changed to a condition that can be fufilled by two things rather than one.  checking for and using a memorized spell slot is very different mechanics wise than checking for an item on the table and removing it.  the ingredient would have to be changed to: scrolls of X spell or memorized slot of X spell.  hm, thats probably possible... but it would require modding the base CNR system AND redoing EVERY recipe affected.  Thats really not going to happen, its a whole lot of recipes.

The real reason it really wont happen is that its not really desirable.  Infusing especially is a trade for spellcasters.  Using scrolls in this manner should acctually not open the craft up to anyone but rogues and bards with UMD since the spell has to be cast into the making of the item.  Scrolls are always restricted to the classes that can cast them, so it would only allow UMD chars access to the craft.  And really, a rogue can fake it well enough to use a wand or scroll if they're good, but they can't make wands or scrolls. these things require a spellcaster, and that is as it should be.

There is a market for divine scrolls if you posted this in response to having trouble finding one.

[Dorganath]

Pretty much what Talan said is right on the money.
  I would only add that allowing scrolls to be used for enchanting and infusing would really unbalance things. As it is now, a caster can only have so many of a particular spell readied for crafting. Once those are used up, the character has to rest before attempting more. This serves to slow down the craft and to ultimately limit the products produced by the craft within a particular period of time. Allowing scrolls would pretty much negate those limits and would allow someone to buy their way into a particular craft.
  That and there's simply no reason why a divine caster, or a non-caster for that matter, should be able to do arcane enchanting/infusing. Using a scroll is one thing; understanding magic well enough to place the properties of that spell into an oblect is something else entirely.

[forsettii]

Truthfully,

A High level scroll needed for a high level Armor Crafitng of Weapon crafting might add some flare in crafting.

When I started infusing it was to add wand crafting to the game.  What I did not want to happen was power leveling through the crafting levels.  I also thought it was cool that you had to learn certain spells to make items.  Thus it limited who could make the items.  It all comes down to balance.

[Filatus]

Dorganath - 5/16/2006  3:19 PM    Pretty much what Talan said is right on the money. 
  I would only add that allowing scrolls to be used for enchanting and infusing would really unbalance things.  As it is now, a caster can only have so many of a particular spell readied for crafting.  Once those are used up, the character has to rest before attempting more.  This serves to slow down the craft and to ultimately limit the products produced by the craft within a particular period of time. Allowing scrolls would pretty much negate those limits and would allow someone to buy their way into a particular craft.
  That and there's simply no reason why a divine caster, or a non-caster for that matter, should be able to do arcane enchanting/infusing.  Using a scroll is one thing; understanding magic well enough to place the properties of that spell into an oblect is something else entirely.
   

 Could you then explain to me why the wizard Staff of Elements requires scrolls, so clerics can make it, while the Staff of the Sun requires memorized spells.  If you look at the high-end staffs that can be infused, you'll find there is a discrepancy.

[Xandor Loriland]

The staff of the Sun was actually the exact issue that brought up this question.  I was interested in checking out this staff and I know someone who is very high up in infusing but he is an arcane caster as most are I think.  One of the ingredients is spells of seering light (cleric only).  I tried scribing some of the scrolls to give to him so he could make it, since I had heard that for some recipies you can use scrolls, but of course this didn't work.  I have seen someone with one of these staves so I know there is someone out there that can make them but it occurred to me that it is a lot of work for a cleric to become that good at infusing just to be able to make some of the higher level items.  I guess there are other useful lower items too that clerics can make.  I can understand the issues presented and it all comes down to balance so since I don't have all of the info on the balancing I will leave it up to the team to decide.  This just seemed like a good topic for debate and education.  Thanks for the responses.

[Xandor Loriland]

After talking with a couple of other people I guess the issue that really stands out here is one of consistancy.  I think that if scrolls can be used for some applications then they should be a ble to be used for all and if you have to have the spell memorized then it should be that way for all.  That way you avoid the finger pointing of arcance vs. divine casters and any appearance of favoritism and such.  So I would like to revise my suggestion to be that the system should be made consistent however it can be without losing balance.  Thanks.

[Filatus]

Xandor Loriland - 5/16/2006  11:54 PM

After talking with a couple of other people I guess the issue that really stands out here is one of consistancy.  I think that if scrolls can be used for some applications then they should be a ble to be used for all and if you have to have the spell memorized then it should be that way for all.  That way you avoid the finger pointing of arcance vs. divine casters and any appearance of favoritism and such.  So I would like to revise my suggestion to be that the system should be made consistent however it can be without losing balance.  Thanks.

I agree.

[Dorganath]

Xandor Loriland - 5/16/2006  4:54 PM  After talking with a couple of other people I guess the issue that really stands out here is one of consistancy.  I think that if scrolls can be used for some applications then they should be a ble to be used for all and if you have to have the spell memorized then it should be that way for all.  That way you avoid the finger pointing of arcance vs. divine casters and any appearance of favoritism and such.  So I would like to revise my suggestion to be that the system should be made consistent however it can be without losing balance.  Thanks.

 Again, it's a matter of balance and complexity. It's also a matter of "does this make sense". As Talan mentioned, the coding and recipies get more complex if we allow either scrolls or spells to be used. Most enchanting/infusing recipes require actual memorized spells I believe; the few exceptions are, as I understand it, to allow a particular class to craft items using spells that they may not otherwise be able to use. One shining example I can think of is the various Bows of the Hunter, which require scrolls of....Find Traps, I think.... and which are Ranger weapons.
  Now, that's not to say that perhaps there aren't individual recipes that are a little strange, and we can review those if it seems warranted.
  Another thing I'd mention is....what about scribing? If we say, "OK, let's universally use scrolls everywhere" then scribing gets a little odd.
  Lastly, I'd like to understad why you think there's some appearance of favoritism in crafting. That some classes are better at or unable to do certain crafts isn't all that unusual, especially when magic is involved. Why, for example, would it make sense for a fighter to be able to enchant or infuse?

[Xandor Loriland]

I have not looked at every recipe so I am just going by what I have heard so please understand I am not trying to make an issue or anything.  I have heard that for some staffs you can use scrolls.  I heard this is true for arcane oriented staffs but for divine oriented applications memorized spells have to be used.  I know the second is true in some cases since I play a cleric and have not found any instance where I could use a scroll for any cleric spell.  If and I say again if what I have heard is true then it seems like a situation where it could look like one class was being favored.  I am not talking about different classes doing different crafts.  That makes all the sense in the world.  I am talking about the rules within a particular craft being different for one class or the other.  In the case of the staffs it seems that using scrolls for an arcane staff actually makes it harder for the arcane caster unless it is a clerical scroll that's being used.  Again I have to qualify all of this with my lack of knowledge so I was just trying to communicate a general desire for consistency.   I don't have an agenda, I just thought this topic was a good one to have discussed so the team was aware of the issue.  Thanks for taking a look.  This discussion has been very informative for me.

[Talan Va'lash]

Some things need scrolls, some things need spells.  Sometimes its harder to get a scroll of a certain spell than it is to get (or be) a crafter who can cast it, sometimes it easier.

You can always tell which is which as when it calls for a physical item the recipe lists the name of the item.  The name of a scroll item is the name of the spell.  So if it just says "-name of spell-"  its a scroll.  If it says "X spells of -name of spell-" its memorized spells.

some of the arcane infusd items use scrolls.  Some of the ones that are arcane or divine use scrolls.  One of them acctually uses scrolls of arcane spells and the only spells that need to be cast (if there are any, don't recall) are arcane or divine, allowing clerics to craft it as well (or bards for that matter.)

On the whole the divine high infused items are better than the arcane ones so.. heh if this turned into a "which has it better in infusing" discusson, it wouldnt go the way you might think.

-TV

[Xandor Loriland]

Well it sounds like this has been worked through pretty well.  Thanks for the info.