XP from crafting... how is it calculated?

[Pen N Popper]

Something doesn't seem right:  Crafting a dagger (1 small mold, 2 ingots metal, returns 1 mangled on failure) yields 10x the XP than a set of throwing axes (2 small mold, 9 ingots metal, 2 shafts, returns 1 mangled on failure).  

My question is this:  Should these high XP items be considered "practice" items for the craft?  Staying in-character and making only what my PC uses would result in him never (almost literally) gaining any levels in CNR weapon crafting.  Instead, I find myself making the throwing axes and compensating myself the XP by making a dagger.  

Thoughts?

[Rayenoir]

I believe it's the idea that the throwing axes are consumable.  Since you run out, you're guaranteed to have to make more eventually.  A regular dagger, barring an encounter with a rust monster, will probably never be lost.

[Dorganath]

Each craftable item in CNR has a "level" associated with it. This corresponds somewhat loosely to the level one needs to be able to craft it at all. When successfully crafting an item the base XP granted is currently 10 times the item's crafting level. Level 1 crafting items will give 10XP as a base per crafted item.
  Now, XP from crafting is adjusted based on your chance of actually crafting an item. If your chance is 50%, you get 100% of the crafting XP. If your chance is 5% you'll get 195% of the crafting XP. If an item becomes trivial to you, you get no XP at all.
  So basically, you get more XP by "learning" things that you're not very good at and little to no XP at things you are really good at.
  Hope that makes sense.

[Talan Va'lash]

Some things of the same crafting level yield more or less xp.  This is usually because finished products yield more xp than intermediary products, but some things (new things, or things that don't get made often, so no one reports it) have had to be corrected over time.

It would be helpful for you to post exactly what your chances (% of making) are for each of the two items, and how much xp you gain on success for each of them.

Make sure that your relevant stats are the same (no difference in buffs, etc) for both trials, as a change in them would skew the comparison.

This information should make it clear whether the base xp for throwing axes is set incorrectly or whether this is working as it should.

-TV

[Dorganath]

Throwing axes and daggers are of the same craft level for a given type of metal. I don't see any reason why you would be getting more or less XP for either unless there are things like buffs in effect for one and not the other.
  Intermediate and finished products tend to have different crafting levels; there's no identifier that says a particular item is finished or intermediate. As I said above, it's all determined on the crafting level, but also modified (multiplied) based on your chances of success for any given attempt.
  If you think something is not right, please list the exact items (item type and material), your percentage of success for each item and the XP gained for each attempt.Make sure that if you have any buffs (spells or jewelry) in effect during crafting that the exact same bonuses apply for both attempts.

[Harloff]

I think cutting or crushing gems have the same difficulty as polishing them, yet cutting and crushing only yield half the exp polishing does. And I think making saw dust only give 1 exp nomatter how hard it is for you to make (unless if it is trivial). As far as i can remember anyway, it has been a long time since saw dust making wasn't trivial for me.

[Talan Va'lash]

Harloff - 1/23/2006  8:43 PM

I think cutting or crushing gems have the same difficulty as polishing them, yet cutting and crushing only yield half the exp polishing does. And I think making saw dust only give 1 exp nomatter how hard it is for you to make (unless if it is trivial). As far as i can remember anyway, it has been a long time since saw dust making wasn't trivial for me.

Cutting gems yields exactly half xp as is given polishing them.  Its an intermediary/"finished" product difference, as Fine Gems are the finished product the the gem cutting portion of gem crafting.

Dorg, base xp for each item is set somewhere, it is not solely dependant on craft level.  Remember the time the 0 was left off the xp for mahogany arrow shafts and their base xp was 1 when it should have been 10 (at 95%) or 10 when it should have been 100 (at 50%) whichever point "base xp" refers to.

-TV

[Dorganath]

@Talan, I'm aware of how XP is set and that it is technically independent of crafting levels. I've looked closely at the code that governs this and at that database that now controls crafting. To be clear...for MOST items, intermediate or finished, the XP awarded is set to 10 times the crafting level. There are exceptions....gem cutting/polishing is one...but for the lion's share of crafting this is how it goes. What you referred to with the missing "0" was a mistake. However that's not the case here.
  For clarity...gem cutting/polishing is not marked in any different way than any other item in crafting. There's no "intermediate" flag that halves the XP. The XP for cutting/grinding is set to 50% of the XP for polishing. This is an XP tweak, and not a designation as "intermediate". In other words, there's no extra calculation or factor involved for items that are finished or intermediate.
  @Harloff, sawdust is a rather strange exception...it gives base XP of 1, 2, 3 or 4 XP depending on the wood type, though all sawdust is crafting level 1. I think this is to reflect the idea that any monkey can make sawdust...even out of yew.
  In general, XP tweaks like this are to reflect some degree of realism and balance. They should be interpreted as the exceptions and not the rule.
  The original question had to do with two finished products, both of which are of the same crafting level and grant the same amount of XP per successful attempt. If these two items are giving different XP when crafted under the exact same conditions, then something is wrong. However looking at the database right now, I can see absolutely no reason why one would get different amounts of XP from crafting either one.
  As I said previously, make note of actual percentages, XP given, buffs, etc.

[Harloff]

Dorganath - 1/24/2006  2:58 PM

@Harloff, sawdust is a rather strange exception...it gives base XP of 1, 2, 3 or 4 XP depending on the wood type, though all sawdust is crafting level 1. I think this is to reflect the idea that any monkey can make sawdust...even out of yew.

*nods* I thought so I was just giving examples of two things that i knew did not follow the ordenairy xp-calculation system. However, I find it strangge that the difficulty can be high but the xp is low, I think it wou be more logical to have "making sawdust" as being trivial for all instead, that way the xp would inded reflect the difficulty. This is however not a big issue to me.

[Talan Va'lash]

Harloff - 1/24/2006  1:35 PM
However, I find it strangge that the difficulty can be high but the xp is low,

Sawdusts of all woods are crafting level 1.  The difficulty isn't high.

-TV

[Pen N Popper]

Well, it seems I was mistaken:  The XP from a dagger and a set of throwing axes is the same at the same percent chance.  Sorry!

I guess bang-for-your-buck daggers are better for "learning" to be a weapon smith due to lesser number of ingredients.

[osxmallard]

I think sawdust making is actually very difficult for a non-wood worker... for me it has a 50% chance of being made on each attempt.  If we go with the "anyone can make it" theory, it should be trivial for all and grant 0-1 XP.

Thanks.

- Addi

[Dorganath]

If you're not a woodworker, that would imply you're at Level 1 in woodworking, and therefore 50% is about exactly right.
  It's just like grinding gems. It should be pretty easy, and with jus a little practice it will be, but the gem dust is used for other things, and so it must be ground "right". Same deal with sawdust. It shouldn't take anyone, wood crafter or no, very long to get good at sawdust.

[Harloff]

in order to get to the point were sawdust making is trivial by cutting wood into saw dust you would have to get 2750 pieces of hickory, 1375 branches of oak, 917 branches of mahogony or 688 branches of yew. (assuming that you start with 50 % chance)

[Dorganath]

Well, yeah...if all you make is sawdust. *chuckles*
  If someone wanted to be good at sawdust, they'd probably spend a few levels making shafts for bows and quarterstsves and small shafts for arrows/bolts. That would put them through the first few levels pretty quickly.

[Rayenoir]

osxmallard - 1/25/2006  1:58 PM

I think sawdust making is actually very difficult for a non-wood worker... for me it has a 50% chance of being made on each attempt.  If we go with the "anyone can make it" theory, it should be trivial for all and grant 0-1 XP.

Thanks.

- Addi

Anyone *can* make it.  You receive some sawdust even if you fail the crafting roll.  It's just that more capable woodworkers can make better sawdust with fewer big chunks and shards in it, and thus produce more useable sawdust from a successful roll.

[Talan Va'lash]

Rayenoir - 1/26/2006  7:19 AM

Anyone *can* make it.  You receive some sawdust even if you fail the crafting roll.  It's just that more capable woodworkers can make better sawdust with fewer big chunks and shards in it, and thus produce more useable sawdust from a successful roll.

This is exactly why.  The same thing with grinding gems.  Anyone can get gem dust from a gem, the only difference between success and failure is how much usable dust you manage to produce.

-TV

[Harloff]

*slaps his head* the numbers I mentioned are of course related to number of succesed craft attempts, so the actual number of branches needed is of course much higher...