Spawn in the Deep

[Pibemanden]

Description and reasoning:

I would first like to point out that I in no way dispute that it was fair that we died when we tried to take on this massive spawn but I do have a request regarding it.

The problem being that there are 30+ monsters spawning in such a small area plus they all use visual heavy auras, spells and buffs as you engage them. The problem here becomes that no matter your hardware everything will start locking up. Plus I believe it isn't really healthy for the server either to have such a huge amount of things spawn.

I am pretty sure I don't know why the spawn is placed as it is, but I don't know why it couldn't be replaced with a couple of tough spawns in the way leading there and then some server message when you get to the actual cave about some awesome power lying ahead or something similar, then have three-five really impossible foes spawn which would kill the adventurer who dares going too close. The three-five being of magnitude with the spectral dragon/Rofi king/Lich thing or more for each of them, maybe even just make them immortal so that there will be no doubt about the outcome.

My main issue with the fight is really that you can never have a fair our battle where you loose against them, no matter what it would be a laggy kind of death where you not only die because you are overpowered, but also because you can't do anything while you are being overpowered. Furthermore I am not sure that triggering this spawn or fighting it would not impact other people on the server severely, especially if they are also fighting a relatively large spawn.

I hope that this request made some sense.

[Dorganath]

So that I'm clear, is this the cave that once housed emeralds?

[Pibemanden]

That is the case

[Dorganath]

OK, though so.

There's a total of 19 creatures in that area with no triggered/variable encounters, though it's possible some of them summon.  The creatures are "placed" so there's really no server lag in the triggering of them, as they're not triggered.

There actually is a server message within that cavern in plenty of time to turn back. I don't know about what areas there are before that, but that one specifically definitely does.

There may be a point about the possibility lag during the combat, however. Overwhelming odds probably should not include processing, network and video latency.  It's something we'd have to review.

[Asmodean]

After reviewing my log, this is the only message I can find that was generated inside the mine...

CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sat May 16 18:08:40] This cave seems a wretched contortion of what it once was.  At one time a terrible but pure representation of the most powerful of elements, it seems depleted, twisted, and the air unnatural.

This seems ... well..  rather benign.  If anything.. I know this party would like a placeable that is a little more... to the point.

Such as.. Enter at Dire Risk to Body and Soul....

** can we do it in flashing super bright NEON??** hehehe

At the very least, we would hope that others will learn from our folly, if no "bug" is actually found.

[Jilseponie Wyndon]

My character was at the rear of the party both times.  The first encounter had a little drag to it, and did not affect my system.  I could still operate easily.

Now when we went for the second time ... the creatures were engaged and in less than 30 seconds I do not know what happened.  I saw the creatures come around the corner and those in front of me taking serious damage so I headed towards the walkway from which we came.  Headed ... I got halfway to my click point and my character turned around and went back, then went halfway to my clickpoint and went back, doing this 5 times, of which I had no control.  I could not even access a quickslot with invis dust in it.  All I could do was watch in helpless wonder as a demon, unaffected, saunter up to me and blast me into red bits.

All I saw in front of me at the time was maybe 4 creatures.  Not sure what was around the corner.

I was not running anything in the background, and program updates were disabled.

Just my point of view.

[Lynn1020]

I admit I did not read the message.  When your in a area like that you are focused on what is a head and keeping your party alive. Between the lag and the creatures,  I do not see how anyone can survive that battle.  

No not everyone lost a SS but many did.  I know this was pretty much our own fault.  But it doesn't make it any better that afterwards it seems like everyone else but us know that the emeralds are no longer there.   I would have NEVER lead a group there had I known.  I really feel the weight of those SS on my shoulders.

[Dorganath]

There's no need to accept or assign blame here.  Pretty much all of the Deep was recently redone, and as is sometime the case, not everything is "right".  That still remains to be seen here, so at worst, this was a rather unfortunate learning experience for the characters (and maybe the players too) though hopefully not too harsh of one, as we hate sucking the fun out of play time.  At best, it highlights a problem that needs to be tweaked, addressed and/or adjusted in some way.

As I said, for this case, it remains to be seen, but I do appreciate everyone's input and account.

[Chongo]

Yeah, folks - I'm going to be honest to a degree that mostly ruins the mystery here, but at this point of PM's and general misinformation I suppose it's the best option.

I know it stinks when you get wiped.  I am not happy about it happening, nor do I ever try to build with that intent in mind.  It's frustrating when I start getting that vibe... and I'll be honest - when people start spreading this sort of angst around, I am less and less likely to even bother trying to grow the server more.  Think about that a bit.  Pibe's question was fair - I don't mean to answer negatively towards it bud... it's the PM's and IRC angst I could do without folks.

The deep was redone to specifications assigned by Dorg.  Emeralds and mithril were put in other regions to lower the Challenge Rating (CR) to attainable standards for lower level and smaller groups.

In every case where CR is rebalanced, I get two sets of complaints:  

"TOO HARD!!!!  Why is everything made for only the uber epics!?!?!"
 
and
 
"TOO EASY!!!! Why don't you just bloody give everything away Chongo and make our old efforts not count for anything!!!?"


In this case I really feel like there's nothing in the slightest for either party to complain about.  I made a new easier outlet for mainline CNR, and then made a very high epic outlet to keep the folks on the other side of the fence entertained.

When you have PC messages and very tangible changes such as music, lighting, sound and visual effects... even mine caverns that have collapsed in on themselves - it should be exceptionally obvious that you should not expect the same as you once did.

The trouble with this region in particular is that the precedent has been set through what I deem poor building - that you simply don't have time or perhaps even energy to entertain viable roleplay.  A playstyle has been drilled into your head to say that the Deep represents a region of wild tempo of battles and a wild lack of conversation.  I know this and I honestly feel your pain.  That's why I tore it apart and just built a whole new adventure for those CNR goals.  But the old track towards the Deepening Dark's domain is the same old tempo, and it's like this to keep that wild adventure alive for the folks that would miss it.  This cave you wandered into... it is one of the nuttiest battles on Layonara.  And I really do not want to change that because at the end of the day, changing this will be reactive to one particular instance when a group that didn't mechanically rate to that CR ended up dying.  You don't walk into Fisterion's or Essrantor's chambers and complain 'too hard!' when you die.  And yes!  I'm trying to keep challenges out there that don't directly impact storylines that are just as tough for high level folks feeling like they need a challenge.  

The bad feelings here are due to something changing that you had grown very accustomed to being a certain way.  It's always been over the top down there and you're feeling like making it harder was just punitive.

But the past programming of tempo and lacking opportunity to roleplay aside, and with the knowledge that the CNR is not down that path any longer.... what remains is that you wandered down the wrong set of tunnels and didn't pay attention to the clues.  You passed by a brand new option of directions and did not entertain them.  And you assumed that challenges are static even if the environment clearly changed.

Don't unite to force a reactive measure to buffer everything to your exact scenario and desired challenge.  And please, the IRC chatter I've seen quoted (and it's not just this scenario here alone, it's the conspiracy theorists and wild assumptions that you let gather steam) - you need to think about what you say or you'll lose your advocates altogether.

[Lynn1020]

Yep I was talking in IRC. I was very upset about the SS loss and still am.

[Dorganath]

You know what, I'm locking this thread, as sad and disappointing as that is.

This is no place for passing or taking blame.  It is for finding out a) if something is not as it should be and b) what can be done to correct it.

Since we have strayed out of the realm of facts and into more subjective matters, I'm stopping this here and now.

If and when there is anything further to add here, I will either post it myself or re-open the thread.

[Dorganath]

Alright, so we're all on the same page...

It was not my intent to paint anyone above in a bad or negative light, though it's been suggested that my previous post and locking of the thread might do exactly that.

I personally do not fault the group for their actions, nor for bringing the question forward.  I personally do not fault Chongo for the way this area is built, the intent behind it and so forth.

In these bug report threads, I only care about two things:

1) Gathering as much factual and objective information as possible
2) Determining if there is, in fact, a bug

Given the number of deaths and strand loss, plus the rather negative feel of the end of an otherwise enjoyable journey, it's perfectly understandable that there are strong feelings here.  Likewise, on the development end of things, I know a lot of time was spent updating and realigning things, and personally, I know first hand how the "this is a bug" vibe feels when something changes.

These things are all well, good and natural, but they derail the process. Rather than let this particular thread spin down a rapid spiral, I chose to lock it to prevent it from going down a path of elevated emotions and heated posts, coupled potentially with "back-channel" whispers, hurt feelings and just negative vibes all around.

There's responsibility on both sides of this.  On the developent end, there's a responsibility toward keeping things "fair", even if "fair" is synonymous with "overwhelming by design."  We don't want errors, bugs, mistakes or other OOC dynamics to make something unplayable.  Likewise, there's a responsibility on the part of the players.  It's easy to get into a rut, to assume that after we've done the same thing 5, 10, 15 times that the 20th, 21st, 22nd, 30th, 437th time and so on will be just the same. Maybe a GM changes things around to tweak the challenge.  Maybe the devs put something in for plot reasons or to keep some of the mystery in the world.

If anyone wishes to discuss this privately, my PM box is open.  If it's relevant to the issue, I may even post it.  If nothing else, locking this thread lets heads cool a bit, which is ultimately good for everyone.

[Dorganath]

Did you think I've forgotten about this?

After a lot of thought, testing and more thought, I've come up with the following conclusions.  Please read them through thoroughly to make sure everyone is on the same page.  If there are questions as to what I've written, please ask rather than assume. I'm happy to entertain all respectful questions and comments.

Now then, for the area in question.  It was changed in a recent update, the changes there were intentional and it will stay as designed.  In addition, the challenges there are and will remain extremely difficult, at least with the next update.

In this regard, I do not consider it a bug, nor do I consider them "overwhelming" as we have defined such as it applies to reimbursement policies.  I will not, in this thread, explain, debate or second-guess the decisions of our builder.

With that said, the one thing that stands out to me is the mechanical warning as one passes from one part of the chamber to the next, and in my opinion and others with whom I have consulted, this warning is somewhat weak for what lies ahead.

In the next update, I have added a second, more foreboding warning.  From this point on, there will be no leniency regarding this particular chamber unless it is later found that something mechanical is amiss.  

Regarding the expedition in this particular incident, the logs and accounts suggest two separate attempts were made to overcome the challenges of this chamber, roughly 30 minutes apart from each other. I personally extend my sympathies for the lost strands in this, and they were surely quite voluminous, though that in itself is not cause for any particular action. However, during this time, I see two distinctly different motivations, and combining that with what I wrote above, I will present the following offer.

For those two characters who lost strands in the initial attempt, I will approve the return of those strands as a matter of fairness and leniency due to the factors given above. For those who lost strands in the second attempt, I can find no other course at this time than to not consider them for a special-case return, and our regular policies will apply for any who wish to try and recover them.

For transparency, the two characters are:
- Iradril Arkenrahel
- Yvale

By unfortunate coincidence, it is also these two characters who lost two strands overall in the event, but this fact had nothing to do with my decision process.

This thread is once more open for posting and discussion, and if it stays rational and respectful, it will remain so.

Thank you all for your patience, understanding and input.