Race description: Half-Giant

[Faldred]

Due to the V3 alignment restrictions, the requirements/restrictions section should be change from any non-lawful to TN, CN, LE, or NE.

Also, under religion, since NG is now out of the question, it is highly unlikely that new half-giants would worship Vorax, especially considering the bad blood between dwarves and giants.

Other alignment-restricted races might need to have their pages updated as well.

[EdTheKet]

Good point on the alignments. LE would be out too (due to the lawful), going to think on it though.

On the Vorax thing for half-giants raised by humans, that's still possible (as being just a follower, like a fighter, you're not bound by the one-step rule, being a cleric of vorax is another matter, and I doubt Vorax'd accept clerics with giant blood, there are limits).

[Honora]

I would once again point out that disallowing lawful essentially bans most "evil" races from becoming monks.  If they can manage the alignment shift, and are approved for the requisite CDQ after keeping up a journal that meets spec, and pass the CDQ, then it's still almost certain someone will have a problem with them being "overpowered" assuming you will allow a multi-class like that to begin with as monks are discouraged from multi-classing.
 
 I do not know if this is intentional but it creates essentially a race/class combo ban.

[Boxcar]

The V3 alignment restrictions state "The following races must start out as CN, TN, NE, or LE: Dark Elf, Half Orc, Half Giant, Half Ogre, Orc, Goblin, and Duergar. There is one exception to this; a cleric character that follows Az'atta (regardless of race) may start out with a good alignment."

The way it is currently stated, an eventual shift to an alignment other than CN, TN, NE or LE is not impossible. So I could foresee a Half Giant character shift alignment from CN to CG over the course of time, for example. Therefore, I'm not certain that a change should be made to the alignment sections on the LORE pages for the races in question.

I also interpret the alignment restriction as that at character creation, a PC of one of those races must be one of the alignments listed (CN, TN, NE, LE) and not that a PC of one of those races can be any of the alignments listed. So a new Half Giant character under the existing rule would have to start as CN, TN or NE (since Lawful is not permitted). Of course, here I should point out that I am not a character approver nor a GM and therefore I do not have the final say on the subject.

Let's wait and see if someone with more authority than me chimes in; if not, I'll ask. *gives a sideways glance in Ed's general direction*

[stragen]

I would like to see lawful alignments now allowed for Player Character giants.  Previously only Non Player Character giants were allowed.  However this was very limiting when creating a Half-Giant Cleric of Grannoch.

Alignment:
Half Giants are as diverse as humans in alignment. Few, however, fall into the extremes of Lawful Good or Chaotic Evil; instead they are usually somewhere in between, tending to the chaotic.

Grannoch, Mother of Giants

Race: Giant

Alignment: Lawful Neutral

Worshippers:
Usually Giants, Half Giants or Humans with some giant blood in their ancestry.

Cleric Alignments:
    * Lawful Good
    * Lawful Neutral
    * True Neutral
    * Lawful Evil

[Faldred]

I do not know if this is intentional but it creates essentially a race/class combo ban.

I don't know about intent either, but the idea of a half-giant monk is kind of scary from a balance perspective...

[Honora]

Perhaps.  But should it be disallowed on the basis that it COULD be powerful?  I have always thought the ECL 3 was the balancing factor, and as a monk, I can tell you that no amount of stat boost will bump you over the lack of AC in the beginning (and even in the end).  DEX is not enhanced in half-giants; a high STR and CON won't save you from getting the snot beat out of you by a melee mob (always the monk's greatest bane).

[Faldred]

Perhaps.  But should it be disallowed on the basis that it COULD be powerful?  I have always thought the ECL 3 was the balancing factor, and as a monk, I can tell you that no amount of stat boost will bump you over the lack of AC in the beginning (and even in the end).  DEX is not enhanced in half-giants; a high STR and CON won't save you from getting the snot beat out of you by a melee mob (always the monk's greatest bane).

LA +2 (I don't like the use of the ECL term here, as it's only ECL 3 at CL 1) is certainly a balancing factor.  That said, after making the requisite additions to INT and CHA to meet the min/max rules, a HG monk could start with:

STR 14 (+2 race, +3 subrace) ==> 19
INT 14 (-2 race, -4 subrace) ==> 8
WIS 14 ==> 14
DEX 14 ==> 14
CON 10 (+4 subrace) ==> 14
CHA 12 (-2 race, -4 subrace) ==> 6

Base AC: 16 (10 + 2 DEX + 2 WIS + 2 dodge [racial])
Skill points: 5/level (calculated without subrace penalty), Tumble is a class skill, so AC +1 at level 2 and every 5 levels thereafter
Monk AC: +1/5 levels

The base AC is almost as good as a 1st level human fighter is going to get, based on the armor they can afford (using a shield is the only way the fighter gets an AC advantage with starting funds).  At level 20, without any special equipment (and advancing neither WIS or DEX every four levels), the HG Monk would have a "naked" AC of 25 (16 flat-footed), with the class and Tumble bonuses.

An extra attack per round (via Flurry) and Cleave as free feat (especially when doing +4 damage from STR bonuses, and don't forget a higher base unarmed damage for being a large race), can make survivability much easier (the best defense is a good offense) -- rats and skeletons (typical low-level enemies) are particularly vulnerable to Cleave given their low HP and swarm tactics.  The only drawback here is the -2 to-hit penalty for a large race (which makes the extra STR a wash for AB, but still extra damage).

As you gain levels, then the Monk abilities start kicking in.. Improved knockdown for a HG without the INT requirement?  That's size large plus one category.  Enchanted gloves are available at much lower levels than equivalent weapons.

Also remember that Monks aren't supposed to be front-line tanks.  They are specifically designed as anti-casters (well, anti-Arcane casters... who the heck gave Clerics and Druid high Fort saves?) -- spell resistance, (improved) evasion, high saves across the board, extra movement speed and Tumble to get safely around the front-liners, and special abilities designed to take down low-Fortitude opponents quickly.  That said, they can hold their own in a fight, too.

[Marswipp]

Wouldn't the first level base AC be 15 because of size?

[EdTheKet]

The way it is currently stated, an eventual shift to an alignment other than CN, TN, NE or LE is not impossible. So I could foresee a Half Giant character shift alignment from CN to CG over the course of time, for example. Therefore, I'm not certain that a change should be made to the alignment sections on the LORE pages for the races in question.

I also interpret the alignment restriction as that at character creation, a PC of one of those races must be one of the alignments listed (CN, TN, NE, LE) and not that a PC of one of those races can be any of the alignments listed. So a new Half Giant character under the existing rule would have to start as CN, TN or NE (since Lawful is not permitted). Of course, here I should point out that I am not a character approver nor a GM and therefore I do not have the final say on the subject

Correct.

I would once again point out that disallowing lawful essentially bans most "evil" races from becoming monks. If they can manage the alignment shift, and are approved for the requisite CDQ after keeping up a journal that meets spec, and pass the CDQ, then it's still almost certain someone will have a problem with them being "overpowered" assuming you will allow a multi-class like that to begin with as monks are discouraged from multi-classing.

I do not know if this is intentional but it creates essentially a race/class combo ban.

Good point, it would prevent all those races from starting as monk. We'll think on it.

However this was very limiting when creating a Half-Giant Cleric of Grannoch.

Well, they're only half-giants, not full blood giants, so Grannoch isn't too fond of them, so there shouldn't be scores of half-giant clerics.

[Boxcar]

Moving this to the fixed bugs forum.