Silver Enhancement Not Working?

[davidhoff]

Hi,

I recently put a silver enhancement 1d8 on Griff's Axe and in play I had the suspision it was not working as it should.  So, I tested it at Krandor Crypt today.  My first round in the crypt was with an addy dwarven axe with the 1d8 silver on it, and my second round was with a naked copper dwarven axe.  Greater Magic Weapon was cast on both weapons (+4).  Both times my strength ability score was the same; I never used power attack or anything else that would alter the "physical damage" output.  The two enemies I fought were "Dusty Bones" and "Twisted Corpse" which are both undead.  The results were as follows (based on 30 hits per creature):

Physical damage with Addy Axe with 1d8 Silver:
Dusty Bones:
Highest damage:  23
Lowest damage:  11
Average damage:  17.1

Twisted Corpse:
Highest Damage:  25
Lowest Damage:  11
Average Damage:  17.8

Physical damage with naked copper axe:
Dusty Bones:
Highest damage:  22
Lowest damage:  13
Average damage:  17.0

Twisted Corpse:
Highest Damage:  22
Lowest Damage:  14
Average Damage:  17.6

Based on these results I think the silver enhancement should be investigated for not working as it should.  The damage outputs were almost identical for both weapons and the the "lowest" damage output was actually better for the naked copper axe.

Thank you,

Davidhoff

[Dorganath]

Hey there, just a few things...

First, just in case you're not familiar with the technical issues, the silver enhancements add item properties to produce the bonus damage vs. the racial types of Undead and Shapechangers.  These item properties are not handled in scripts but by the NWN game engine itself.  So the first thing you should do is to verify that there's a 1d8 vs. Undead on the axe in question.  If it's not there, then there's your problem. If it is there, then the game itself is glitching, but there's not a lot that we can do to verify nor fix this short of resetting the server.

I did verify that both creatures are "undead" in the sense that the game will recognize them, so at least there's that.

One last thing to note.  Slashing weapons, like an axe, are not the best weapons to use against undead.  Some undead, including skeletons, have a partial immunity vs. Slashing damage.  Unfortunately (and there's balance reasons for doing it this way), the Silver Enhancement IV adds 1d8 slashing damage vs. the racial types.  So in this context, the effect of the silver enhancement, can actually be somewhat less than the 1d8, depending on the percentage of the damage immunity. A 50% immunity to slashing damage would effectively make the 1d8 into a 1d4.

So it's probably a transient thing, but if you could visually verify the vs. Undead item property exists on your axe, that would be great.

[davidhoff]

Thanks for the quick reply Dorg.  I posted on the gallery the axes I used for the testing.  One of the axes has a 1d8 Silver Enhancement and the other is a naked copper axe.

I reperformed the test after the server reset (due to the new version that just came out) to see if the server reset made a difference.  The results after server reset just for the axe with silver enhancement were as follows:

Physical damage with Addy Axe with 1d8 Silver (after server reset):
Dusty Bones:
Highest damage: 24
Lowest damage: 12
Average damage: 18.74

Twisted Corpse:
Highest Damage: 24
Lowest Damage: 13
Average Damage: 18.6

The new numbers are up only slightly from the previous test before reset, but not enough to convince me its working as it should.  I think on average with a 1d8 silver damage increase you should see a +4 damage increase in all categories (highest, lowest and average) over the naked copper axe, and that's not what's happening.

As far as the immunity to slashing goes, the "Dusty Bones" have 50% immunity to slashing, so I added the damage taken off from the immunity back to the total physical damage per hit to make the numbers more comparable.  The "Twisted Corpse" has no slashing immunity.

It is my speculation that either the silver damage enhancement is not coded properly or that for some reason the "extra slashing" damage from the silver does not stack with a weapon like an axe that already does "slashing" damage.  Could you please look into this further?  

Thanks,

Davidhoff

PS: I have the logs if you need them; not sure how to get them to you as my uploading capacity is full.

[Dorganath]

Thanks for the added information, however at this time, I do not have anything I can "look into".  The 1d8 vs. Undead is handled by the NWN game engine, not by any script I can adjust.

The stacking thing is possible, though it should have come up in the past (and maybe it has). Since the axe does 1d10 Slashing as a base damage, it may well trump the lesser 1d8 Slashing vs. Undead. I admittedly have very little direct experience with the Silver enhancements.  Perhaps someone else can chime in.

I did find this article which suggests that stacking may indeed be the issue. If this is true (and I have no reason to doubt it) then it seems likely that your silver enhancement will have no effect on your axe, and it also means there's nothing we can do to "fix" it, since it would seem to be working as it was designed by Bioware.

Also, moving this thread slightly.

[davidhoff]

Ok, thanks again.  Later today I'm gona test it with Tralek and a maul he has with silver on it vs. a naked maul.  If it is indeed a stacking issue with "slashing" weapons, this probably also applies to titanium enhancements in the same fashion.  I'll get back later on my results.

[wild_down_under]

Hmmmm... from the post that Dorg posted, it has a nice example about the greatsword.

 "So a greatsword with +5 bludgeoning and a +5 enhancement, will do an extra 10 slashing damage. A greatsword with a +5 enhancement and +5 slashing damage, will do an extra 5 slashing damage (as the damage of the enhancement is the same damage type as the bonus damage property.)"

So, if that is indeed true, adding a silver enhancement (which does slashing damage against undead) on the axe, or any slashing weapon for that matter, is fruitless O.o

[wild_down_under]

...however, adding the silver enhancement on a piercing weapon, like a rapier, or bludgeon weapon, like a mace, gets all the benefits

[Chazzler]

Maybe make silver enchantment do Positive damage instead of physical damage?

[davidhoff]

I'm still testing some things and will get back with my results, but thats what I was thinking Chaz.  However, maybe not 1d8 because that might be overkill, but maybe change it to two levels of enchantment, level 1 does 1d2 positive and level 2 does 1d4..or something like that.  The Titanium will also have to be changed for the same reasons and maybe we could make that sonic damage.  Heck I'd be happy with 1 or 2 points of damage if it was something I could verify was working by checking the logs.

[davidhoff]

Ok, got some new numbers from my testing.  I test two more types of weapons with Tralek.  I tested two greatswords and two mauls.

The first test was a addy maul with silver 1d8 vs a naked copper maul; both had gmw +5 added; results:

Addy Maul with Silver 1d8:
Twisted Corpse:
Highest Damage: 29
Lowest Damage: 14
Average Damage: 20.94

Naked Copper Maul:
Twisted Corpse:
Highest Damage: 21
Lowest Damage: 13
Average Damage: 17.04

So, it looks like the Silver 1d8 is adding additional damage for the maul as the average hit was about 4pts higher for the silver.

The next test was a Mithril Greatsword with Silver 1d8 vs a naked copper greatsword; both had gmw +5 added; results:

Mithril Greatsword with Silver 1d8:
Twisted Corpse:
Highest Damage: 22
Lowest Damage: 13
Average Damage: 18.20

Naked Greatsword:
Twisted Corpse:
Highest Damage: 22
Lowest Damage: 14
Average Damage: 18.10

So, again, like the dwarven axe I tested with Griff, the Greatsword (also slashing weapon) is not getting the additional damage from the 1d8 Silver.

Conclusion:

The Silver 1d8 Slashing enhancement does not add damage to slashing weapons but it does work on Bludgeoning weapons.  My guess is the silver would work on piercing weapons also.  As Dorg and Wild Down Under pointed out, there is a conflict between the slashing damage added to the weapon with the silver vs the slashing damage from the enchantment on the weapon (ie, whether that be from a spell of greater magic weapon or from the weapons own enhancemnt, like addy gives +2).

I'm not sure which one of those two enchantments get overriden, but my guess is the mechanics decide which enhancement is stronger and apply that the damage.  For example, if a 1d8 silver is applied to an addy axe that give +2 slashing enhancemnt, then the game would chose the 1d8 siver as it is stronger.  However, if greater magic weapon +5 was cast on that same weapon, my guess is the game now choses the +5 gmw damage over the 1d8 as that is stronger.

I'm pretty sure this is going to be the same story for the Titanium Enhancement as well.

Solution:

Well, if you want to give those of us who use slashing weapons increased damage vs. undead and outsiders, etc then the silver and titanium enhancements should be adjusted.  Chazzler suggested "positive" for silver enhancement.  I would agree that positive would be good for the silver and sonic for the titanium.  How much is up to the Team, but even 1 or 2 points would be better than the way it works now.  I'd like to hear suggestions though.


Regards,

Davidhoff

[Dorganath]

For historical reference...

http://forums.layonara.com/ask-gamemaster/268292-silver-enhancement.html#post1599832

[davidhoff]

Thank for siting those Dorg, I know there'd been some discussion about silver before.  My point, however, is that the silver enhancment is not working at all on slashing weapons.  The points made on the sited posts is whether the damage done should be changed from slashing to something other like bludgeoning, magic, divine etc.

I don't think anyone has ever realized that the silver and titanium enhancemnents are useless on slashing weapons.  This is new information to me and most others I would think.  To fix this, converting the damage done with a silver or titanium enhancement to 1 or 2 pts of "positive" damage seems a good solution.

[miltonyorkcastle]

Adding non-physical damage is always shot down as seriously unbalancing considering how very, very few creatures have resistances to non-physical and non-elemental damage. It seems that no matter what physical [LORE]damage type[/LORE] is used for the enhancement, the enhancement is useless for one set (Bludgeoning, Piercing, or Slashing) of weapons the second you add an enchantment bonus (whether from weapon type, like iron or addy, or from greater magic weapon). Currently, slashing weapons get the short end of the stick (Gah, another reason I should have used shortswords or rapiers instead of scimis with Steel. **rubs forehead**).

Now, making the enhancements do some sort of extra elemental damage would be much less unbalancing than adding planar damage, but we already have elemental enhancements, so then those wouldn't stack, creating the same problem the slashing weapons have.

In short, I'm not seeing a good answer to this dilemma. A few points of positive or divine energy, even if only against a couple types of creatures, is huge because those points would practically never be soaked/resisted. It's one of the reasons paladins can kick so much you-know-what when they use powers that add divine damage to their weapons.

[davidhoff]

Agreed on all points Milty.  I am not asking for planar damage specifically, just something that adds a little extra damage like its supposed to.  Unfortunately the planar damage was the only thing I could think of that wouldn't cause stacking issues.  But as you said, the planar damage is a bit over the top.

Maybe, now dont throw things at me, two types of titanium and silver enhancemnts could be made.  One that does slashing (like we have now) and one that does "piercing".  Instead of angelica or sladd tounge, you could have two other type ingredients for the piercing type (maybe those red mushrooms that know one uses:)  ).

I suggested piercing because bludgeoning was argued earlier to be too overbalance, because it could cut through the damage immunity of some deaders.

[Dorganath]

I understand your take on it, but that is not the primary issue. It's a creature balance issue.   These here are pretty strong statements, I think:

I say keep it slashing. For balance reasons pretty  much. Becomes a bit too powerful if it's magic or divine as hardly  anything has DR against those. Silver can be added to something that  already has an elemental damage enhancement and divine or magic there  would just be a bit too much. Also the crafting recipes have been with  silver not being super powerful in mind.

For balance reasons it needs to stay as it is  now. I hear your thoughts and I definetly agree with what you are  saying but at this point in time I am not willing to go back through  1700 custom creatures and make changes here and there, not to mention we  can't make changes to default creatures.
  Also as IDii stated, silver can be added to something that already has  an elemental damage enhancement and divine or magic there would just be  a bit too much.

(from http://forums.layonara.com/fixed-bugs/93533-cnr-silver-enhancement-slashing-dmg.html)

I don't expect anyone to agree with the team's position on this, but there it is. @davidhoff, if you feel you've wasted an enhancement, track down a GM and have him/her swap you an Adamantium Dwarven War Axe and a Silver Enhancement IV for your current one.  It's a balance issue and not as trivial as everyone would like to imply.

Even if we did change, this it would not automatically change all the Silver- or Titanium-enhanced weapons out there already, and the Team does not have time to swap everyone around.

[jadewillow]

Thanks for davidhoff and Dorg for digging into this. I had no idea.

What about doing as davidhoff suggested, and adding a piercing version of Silver. Perhaps it is garlic covered so we don't get confused

I understand your take on it, but that is not the primary issue. It's a creature balance issue.   These here are pretty strong statements, I think:





(from http://forums.layonara.com/fixed-bugs/93533-cnr-silver-enhancement-slashing-dmg.html)

I don't expect anyone to agree with the team's position on this, but there it is. @davidhoff, if you feel you've wasted an enhancement, track down a GM and have him/her swap you an Adamantium Dwarven War Axe and a Silver Enhancement IV for your current one.  It's a balance issue and not as trivial as everyone would like to imply.

Even if we did change, this it would not automatically change all the Silver- or Titanium-enhanced weapons out there already, and the Team does not have time to swap everyone around.

[willhoff]

From Milt:

Now, making the enhancements do some sort of extra elemental damage would be much less unbalancing than adding planar damage, but we already have elemental enhancements, so then those wouldn't stack, creating the same problem the slashing weapons have.

Agreed if the damage types from the silver and elemental were the same, But if you made silver do extra cold damage for instance, you could put a acid, electric, or fire enhancement on the weapon and the two elemental damages would stack and not cancel each other out.

So making the silver enhancement do elemental damage would solve your problem without having to add magical, sonic, etc. damage.

[miltonyorkcastle]

True, Willhoff, you could mix the elements.

[davidhoff]

Originally from Dorg:
I don't expect anyone to agree with the team's position on this, but there it is. @davidhoff, if you feel you've wasted an enhancement, track down a GM and have him/her swap you an Adamantium Dwarven War Axe and a Silver Enhancement IV for your current one. It's a balance issue and not as trivial as everyone would like to imply.

Even if we did change, this it would not automatically change all the Silver- or Titanium-enhanced weapons out there already, and the Team does not have time to swap everyone around.

I appologize if I made this sound trivial.  I do not feel I've wasted an enhancement and do not request a return.  I do think two good suggestions were made to fix the problem of slashing weapons not getting the benefit of either titanium or silver: (1) make two types of enhancements, one slashing and one piercing.  That way those with slashing weapons could use piercing, those with piercing could use slasing, and those with bludgeoning could use slashing or piercing; (2) Assign an elemental damage to the silver and titanium.  That way as long as you selected a different element for your base/non-vs damage, then they would not be in conflict.  I only speak for myself, but if it was changed I would not request a re-do, I'd just make or buy another and apply the new version.

[davidhoff]

Before I had said I liked this as a suggestion:

(1) make two types of enhancements, one slashing and one piercing. That way those with slashing weapons could use piercing, those with piercing could use slasing, and those with bludgeoning could use slashing or piercing;

However, after some thought, I believe the silver piercing damage would not work on all "slashing" weapons, because some weapons labeled as "slashing" on the weapon damage category are actually "slashing and piercing" weapons.  The greatsword is one of those that is labeled slashing, but is really slashing/piercing.  To see a list of other weapons that say they are "slashing" but are truly "slashing/piercing" see this thread:

http://forums.layonara.com/fixed-bugs/249452-armor-not-working.html

Based on this, I would change my suggestion to make two types of silver and titanium enhancements, one that does slashing (like we have) and one that does bludgeoning.